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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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The Mystery of Consciousness
    #16307584 -

So I am almost finished with John Searle's "The Mystery of Consciousness"... was curious if anyone has read the book? Whether you have or not, those that are familiar with Searle's work, what is your opinion on his theory of consciousness (i.e. "biological naturalism")?

I'm still not too sure how his biological naturalism is different from property dualism, but I believe it has to do with ontological VS causaul reducibility. Property dualism states that there are two features or properties of one world (i.e. the physical) and that mental properties are ontologically irreducible, whereas Searle wants to say that they are ontologically irreducible, but causally reducible. His main task is to find a medium between dualism and materialism. For Searle, causal biological processes in the brain are sufficient, but not necessary for consciousness to emerge.

In his book "The Mystery of Consciousness" I find it difficult to get through the Godel Theorem and Penrose discussion in relation to consciousness. So if anybody could elaborate on that it would be greatly appreciated.

What are your thoughts on Searle and his contributions to philosophy of the mind?


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"a note for asses: what is very convincing, is not necessarily true - it is merely convincing"

primus------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------------mama didn't raise no fool

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Re: The Mystery of Consciousness [Re: unsui888]
    #16307756 -

I feel that the immense amount of big words really hurt my brain reading that. Here is a summary of biological naturalism for all of you lazy fucks like me. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biological_naturalism

Based off of the knowledge i have obtained in the last 30 seconds i think i approve. The neurological system isn't the base for all consciousness in his theory though. A mechanoid being able to produce a vivid consciousness?  This interesting but seems as though there are many steps to go before he can even state this as a possibility. Then again their are many fallacies...


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Your god is dead, and I killed him.

When you’re lost, here I am. Forever with your soul


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Re: The Mystery of Consciousness [Re: King Klick]
    #16308863 -

The human mind is the best feature we have. How the fuck can we even begin to explain how it 'happened'...Impossible! If humans didn't have consciousness we'd be like all the other animals running around naked. The mind. It could've been put in a different animal, then, then well what the fuck!?
I say let's stop wasting time/resources investigating it's origins, but more time/resources utilizing it's awesome abilities.

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Re: The Mystery of Consciousness [Re: swimmingfast]
    #16309348 -

Animals that run around naked do have consciousness though.

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Re: The Mystery of Consciousness [Re: swimmingfast]
    #16309871 -

If humans didn't have consciousness we'd be like all the other animals running around naked.

What an amazingly ignorant statement.  You make a good case for the idea that the human mind isn't all that amazing after all.


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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: The Mystery of Consciousness [Re: Icelander]
    #16310011 -

yes the idea of animals not being conscious is certainly unclearly deduced, or prejudiced, and shallow, but the question in the OP relates to Searle's attempt to express the zeitgeist of neuropsychology in terms of philosophy and vice-versa.

Unfortunately neuropsychology at large is still flopping around without enough consensus on what parts of the process are biochemical and what parts of the process are electrophysical to support a philosophical analyst that is willing to embrace these terms.

however, the effort Searle makes to acknowledge the contributions of scientific experimental results in the body and language of philosophy is descent enough to support a few tiny echoes of realization about consciousness.


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:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: The Mystery of Consciousness [Re: redgreenvines]
    #16311323 -

Perhaps my choice of words are wrong.

What keeps animals from attaining the same quality of communication as humans do? Is it the mind/consciousness/neurological-capacity? I've seen a video of an African Grey Parrot that can do some complex problem solving. Well for a bird at least.

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Re: The Mystery of Consciousness [Re: swimmingfast]
    #16311344 -

Quote:
What keeps animals from attaining the same quality of communication as humans do?


The same thing that keeps humans from attaining the same quality of communication that other animals have.  Genetics with a little environment on the side.

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Re: The Mystery of Consciousness [Re: DieCommie]
    #16311873 -

@KingKlick: what were some of the fallacies? i'm pretty horrible at recognizing those.

@swimmingfast: why does it follow from the fact that we are conscious we will never be able to explain its origin?

and to answer your question of what distinguishes a conscious animal from our consciousness i find Karl Marx's concept of the 'species-being' to provide some insight. we are able to imagine something and replicate the image from our mind in reality. in other words, we are able to imagine and project that imagination from the mental to the physical. animals do not have the capacity to do so from my limited understanding of animal cognition...


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"a note for asses: what is very convincing, is not necessarily true - it is merely convincing"

primus------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------------mama didn't raise no fool

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Re: The Mystery of Consciousness [Re: unsui888]
    #16311884 -

No i didn't meen fallacies in his theory. I meant just people believing in fallacies, like religion.


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Your god is dead, and I killed him.

When you’re lost, here I am. Forever with your soul


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Re: The Mystery of Consciousness [Re: DieCommie]
    #16311891 -

Basically - as has always been the case - lack of understanding = magic or God or...?


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Re: The Mystery of Consciousness [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #16312127 -

The consciousness is a very interesting topic. Whether or not we can discover scientifically all of the dimensions of the conscious and how it functions precisely, well, that's a big endeavor. It might be possible. But, I'm on the fence cause it might be impossible also.

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Re: The Mystery of Consciousness [Re: swimmingfast]
    #16312290 -

swimmingfast said:
The consciousness is a very interesting topic. Whether or not we can discover scientifically all of the dimensions of the conscious and how it functions precisely, well, that's a big endeavor. It might be possible. But, I'm on the fence cause it might be impossible also.


The same can be said for simple phenomenon too, like the atom itself.

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Re: The Mystery of Consciousness [Re: DieCommie] * 1
    #16313283 -

yeah it seems all we are able to do is describe whats going on with other stuff thats going on and the mistake is to pretend that this tells us whats going on

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Re: The Mystery of Consciousness [Re: swimmingfast]
    #16313697 -

swimmingfast said:
Perhaps my choice of words are wrong.

What keeps animals from attaining the same quality of communication as humans do? Is it the mind/consciousness/neurological-capacity? I've seen a video of an African Grey Parrot that can do some complex problem solving. Well for a bird at least.


Why would you say that animals have a lesser degree of communication than humans? Dogs communicate more through body language and subtle ear, eye and facial expressions. Dogs are so attune to reading body language and subtleties that they can even detect the dilation of pupils in regards to communication. So, I think your analogy of using animals is not really very good. Animals communicate using more basic means. But they still communicate. And if you saw the shit I see as a dog trainer, you would know that most dogs have been working their owners since the day they were brought home as puppies. The majority of humans are backward ass fucking stupid.


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The early bird may get the worm... but the second mouse gets the cheese.

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Re: The Mystery of Consciousness [Re: Freedom]
    #16313777 -

Well the reason I became interested in Searle's account of consciousness is because I have previously held a dualist perspective, which then transformed into a materialist conception of consciousness, and now I want to find a balance between the two that can actually account for consciousness. As much as I want to say it is separate from biochemical brain processes or that it can be reduced to those brain processes, I see both the dualist and materialist perspectives to be sort of a cop out if you will.

Rather than reducing consciousness or mental activity to mere neurological processes, we can view consciousness as reducible to neurological processes causally (rather than ontologically as eliminative materialists seem to do). Therefore, consciousness is a feature that arises from the causal powers of the brain's chemical actions. I guess this begs the question of when exactly consciousness arises or emerges from these brain processes; whether it's a sudden on/off operation, gradual, or both.

Also I've been wondering this... does anyone know if biological naturalism lies under emergent theories of consciousness? It seems that when we say consciousness is a FEATURE of the neurobiological brain processes we are saying that it is an emergent property that arises from certain arrangements of the physical. An analogy I believe Searle gives is that consciousness is to the brain what liquidity/solidity is to water - they are merely features of the physical and not physical themselves.


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"a note for asses: what is very convincing, is not necessarily true - it is merely convincing"

primus------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------------mama didn't raise no fool

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Re: The Mystery of Consciousness [Re: unsui888]
    #16313786 -

Quote:
It seems that when we say consciousness is a FEATURE of the neurobiological brain processes we are saying that it is an emergent property that arises from certain arrangements of the physical. An analogy I believe Searle gives is that consciousness is to the brain what liquidity/solidity is to water - they are merely features of the physical and not physical themselves.


I'd say that is the standard, mainstream position in biology and science.

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Re: The Mystery of Consciousness [Re: unsui888]
    #16314262 -

How about admitting that we just don't know? :wink:

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Re: The Mystery of Consciousness [Re: Freedom]
    #16314274 -

How about both?

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Re: The Mystery of Consciousness [Re: DieCommie]
    #16314339 -

I agree that it is ignorant to say that animals aren't conscious but, not entirely. Some animals are more conscious than others for example gorillas are very intelligent and show emotions. They can even learn sign language and have IQ's equal to five year old children. No one can say that is not a conscious creature but, compare that to an ant who cannot make their own decisions and mindlessly searches for food for the colony. They are like robots programmed to do certain things and cannot act otherwise. Now someone could argue that ants aren't conscious.


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Your maternal figure is so sexually loose, you can relate her to a public chariot; in that she does, indeed, get around.

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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
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