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Chaos as Anarchism- Looking for writers, groups etc..
    #16256944 -

Hi. I'm been searching this topic for a while. I noticed there were a lot of topics on chaos so i thought i bring this up for you guys who have this interest.


While I’m aware that the main stray of anarchism does not believe in chaos but extreme egalitarian ideals that are collectivist, and tends to take form in political/social/activist expression. I still curious about anarchists who embrace or agree to chaos

Egoists within anarchism have taken a belief that allows for chaos to either be synonymous or compatible with its own anarchist interpretation.

I'm curious to find egoist, post-left, lifestyle anarchist writings/writers or groups etc.. who overtly think anarchy is synonymous with chaos or overtly favors chaos

The beliefs would also elaborate on chaos theory, nihilism/decadence, and amorality for example as part of greater anarchy.

I don't know which egoist works of max stirner et all egoist overtly favors chaos.

I know hakim bey does to an extent in some his works.

Discordianism isn't anarchist.

I've seen a lot of cyperhacker, "fuckshitup", textfile writings on archives BBS forums from the 1980s( stuff in the vein of the anarchist cookbook.Are there any books or organized groups who have put out works like this?

Or what i have just mentioned?

Its all for curiousity.

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Re: Chaos as Anarchism- Looking for writers, groups etc.. [Re: gotbot]
    #16256977 -

I'd say go to a library and look for the books?

In my opinion, no anarchist truly agrees with or willingly abides to chaos because then the anarchist actually would be a nihilist, as there is no control to exert, there is no will.


--------------------
Ik hou van je

While you're still sleeping the saints are still weepin' cause things you call dead haven't yet had the chance to be born. -Scatman John

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Re: Chaos as Anarchism- Looking for writers, groups etc.. [Re: Xeny]
    #16257016 -

chaos is an illusion

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Re: Chaos as Anarchism- Looking for writers, groups etc.. [Re: sharon_needles]
    #16257090 -

I've already done. No luck.

Early egoist anarchist tend to lean to the belief believe in no rule that obstruct the will of the individual. This then includes moral, ethics and any underlying principals formed with the collectivist anarchist beliefs this has been mentioned by max stirner and others.

Thats about as far away as anarchy from collectivism and other political forms can go.

Chaos seems to be a fashionable word to use with some political-collective anarchists as a way or metaphor to take down the system to rebuild anarchist society (as ambitious cloud talk and protest vandalization ), but not as chaos lifestyle. but i've never found any texts including collectivists ones mentioning chaos  on this subject in both cases.

Hakim Bey seems to be the one who brings it up and embraces it. I'm still reading his stuff. Who else?

I’m thinking there have got to some egoist anarchists, lifestyleists who have at least embraced chaos.

It seems the dada philosophy was very chaos based, and anarchic .

Edited by gotbot (05/20/12 06:49 AM)

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Re: Chaos as Anarchism- Looking for writers, groups etc.. [Re: sharon_needles]
    #16257109 -

sharon_needles said:
chaos is an illusion


prove it.  People who drop in with unsubstantiated claims are usually FOS.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Chaos as Anarchism- Looking for writers, groups etc.. [Re: Icelander]
    #16257114 -

I was reffering to the library searching

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Re: Chaos as Anarchism- Looking for writers, groups etc.. [Re: gotbot]
    #16257177 -

What? I wasn't replying to you. Use the quote feature correctly please.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Chaos as Anarchism- Looking for writers, groups etc.. [Re: gotbot]
    #16257351 -

I'll give this one a go;

An arch would be a shelter or gateway out of chaos. An arch is an escape from being offended by aspects of a chaotic society that may be typified by 'off topic discussion'. Shelter from chaos means adhering to certain rules such as, for example, no upsetting pictures of scat and violence.

In an anarchistic society to take offense is to begin to seek protection by law. As such, the Bible could be added to a collection of writings upon the subject of anarchy.

The process of adding "dead end walls (laws)" to Eastern boys would entail the participation of "Western Girls" to shock and intimidate.

In defense of anarchism it may be noted that if 'you get what you give' then how far down the road of 'shock treatment' are you willing to go?

Edited by Buster_Brown (05/20/12 09:42 AM)

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Re: Chaos as Anarchism- Looking for writers, groups etc.. [Re: gotbot]
    #16258711 -

I embrace chaos. I find it neatly explains why people are so damn ugly.

That wasn't a joke either. ave you ever looked at a room full of people and really felt the grotesque state of our existence?

It is a sharp and hurtful ping to the mind. To look upon your fellow beings as an awkward biological mess. Just tubes that create more tubes. Each tube has several appendages and tools to achieve its worthless aim of creating more tubes.

I, just another tube, losing all desire to be a part of this thing, yet steadfastly surging ahead.

Such a horrific vision of it all tends to lead to intense questioning or searching for some kind of point in being alive... to scrape back some of that forgotten comfort in 'doing what we know and love'.. the normal things.

Why do you think so many try to refute chaos?

I guess in a way, the cliche vision of anarchy (to those who perhaps have not read much about it) is one of chaos... in the most generic sense of the word (riots, fire, civil unrest.. etc)
Perhaps those who have read a bit about anarchy wish to distance themselves from this cliche. 'oh its nothing to do with chaos, it actually rather sophisticated'
But then, perhaps they are not themselves well read on the topic of chaos.

Chaos can, and does produce order. In fact, all orderly systems are the result of some previous disorder. In the way those terms relate to human understanding and perception of such things. To try and dismiss chaos from your worldview would be quite the opposite of anarchic.

I would'nt say that 'embracing chaos' means you have to seek chaos or try to create it. (as exampled by teenage kids who call themselves anarchist and go around smaching up shopping trolleys). Any such attempt to 'be chaotic' is not anarchism, it is a form of rebellion of subjects who are under some kind of domination or perceived domination. But that being said, I wouldnt discredit such a 'phase' as totally irrelevent to ones' personal development. Perhaps it has it's place.

Also I wouldnt say embracing chaos means you need to give up egalitarian ideals. it just means you accept the nature of the world a lot more... that in fact, your egalitarian ideals are just as meaningless amongst all this mess. The problem with idealism is that many tend to hold to it as the 'right way.'  anybody who isn't clued up as to why they shouldnt do such and such is looked upon as 'part of the problem'... which is sort of an elitist attitude .. (haha.. so YOU be the boss then, is that it?)

To embrace chaos is simply to accept the futility and meaninglessness of hierarchical structures... any attempts to impose order for, supposedly, the benefit of everyone.  utter nonsense.... our minds are rich and diverse and the human struggle is not uniform. Armed with such a worldview, one is less likely to give a shit about someone else's idea of comfort and normality. They can hold ideals for thier own sense of identity, not because they believe those ideals should be imposed on everyone. They are not bothered by the fact that others 'just wont see the light' and adopt their own ideals... because the whole thing is pointless anyway.

Is it really such a bad thing that people do this, or wont do that? To each their own. Let the circus perform and keep yours to yourself.


--------------------
Om Bhur Bhuvah Svaha
Tat Savitur Varenyam
Bhargo Devasya Dhimahi
Dhiyo Yo Nah Prachodayat

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Re: Chaos as Anarchism- Looking for writers, groups etc.. [Re: Desert Elf]
    #16258939 -

truly appreciate your input...

But i'm trying to get to the source of chaos and it's role in anarchism

through examples of lesser known, books, writers, obsurce groups, etc..

Hakim Bey is one.

others?

Whats your source. Every book on chaos theory I find it scientific jargon to me.

What are some recommended readings?

Is there such thing as chaosism? ( a belief system not discordianism)

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Re: Chaos as Anarchism- Looking for writers, groups etc.. [Re: gotbot]
    #16259205 -

gotbot said:
truly appreciate your input...

But i'm trying to get to the source of chaos and it's role in anarchism

through examples of lesser known, books, writers, obsurce groups, etc..

Hakim Bey is one.

others?

Whats your source. Every book on chaos theory I find it scientific jargon to me.

What are some recommended readings?

Is there such thing as chaosism? ( a belief system not discordianism)


I can't think of any particular books on this. None that I have read anyway. If anything comes to mind i will let you know. For the mean time, we could just discuss what it is you are probing here.

I know chaos is often used against anarchism... which is silly.

My point was that, to deny chaos (as in, the unpredictablity of complex systems.. such as humanity) would be naive.. sort of like an idealist trying to defend a position by appealing to the 'common good in man' ... any tendency to deny chaos is wishful thinking and disingenous when trying to defend your position. At the same time, chaos is not an argument against anarchism... if anything it supports it.

http://dwardmac.pitzer.edu/Anarchist_Archives/coldoffthepresses/Objections/Pages/24.html ; (refer to objection 18.... pretty well put)

The idea is to embrace it, rather than to will it or desire it or feel you need to be 'chaotic and strange' in order to free... as i tried to explain, any such attempt would just be an example of 'acting out' and isnt true freedom... their is no intelligent cooperation just meaningless rebellion. But again like i say.. this has its place. So when confronted with the FACT that humanity is unpredictable.. the solution is not to create barriers and laws and use force.. indeed, that is quite the opposite. It is just an example of human insecurity, which doesnt make the world suddenly predictable.. it just makes it insecure. We cannot grow under such conditions.. which is the challeng for everyone.. to grow.

So to embrace chaos is, in my oppinion, an important step in forming a functioning worldview without governance. It is like, you have to be prepared to accept that it wont all go a certain way.. there will be disputes and possibly fights... but to cower from that struggle will only lead to you giving up your freedom in exchange for 'security'... it is like rejecting adulthood or something... I cant quite explain but I think you may get my point.


--------------------
Om Bhur Bhuvah Svaha
Tat Savitur Varenyam
Bhargo Devasya Dhimahi
Dhiyo Yo Nah Prachodayat

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Re: Chaos as Anarchism- Looking for writers, groups etc.. [Re: Desert Elf]
    #16262137 -

Yeah i kinda get where you're going with this.

So do you believe in chaos?

The link doesn't work

Again i think post-modernism, punk rock, dadaism,
" the early concept of the internet" even some aspects of surrealist belief systems  all have embraced chaos-anarchy in different ways.

Also what do you make of these links and the writing in them? Do you think there was a movement of people into these kinds of these mentioned in the links.

http://www.textfiles.com/anarchy/

http://www.textfiles.com/anarchy/FDR/

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Re: Chaos as Anarchism- Looking for writers, groups etc.. [Re: gotbot]
    #16262680 -

gotbot said:
Yeah i kinda get where you're going with this.

So do you believe in chaos?

The link doesn't work

Again i think post-modernism, punk rock, dadaism,
" the early concept of the internet" even some aspects of surrealist belief systems  all have embraced chaos-anarchy in different ways.

Also what do you make of these links and the writing in them? Do you think there was a movement of people into these kinds of these mentioned in the links.

http://www.textfiles.com/anarchy/

http://www.textfiles.com/anarchy/FDR/



Hmmm. This is exactly the sort of 'anarchy' I was referring to. It is almost like the mainstream cliched interpretation of anarchy. Like when Black Bloc groups go round breaking shit, the media report it as an eruption of 'anarchy'...

The writing in those links... I am all for the freedom of information, regardless what it entails. But I dont believe 'blowing shit up' is much to do with anarchy.

I interpret anarchy as simply a lifestyle choice and a vision of how people could live without governance from a central power.

I interpret chaos as nothing other than the unpredictablity of complex systems. So yeah, I believe that exists.

Do i believe in 'creating chaos' as some kind of means of facilitating societal change?.. Not really. But like I said, it has its place, I dont condone nor condemn those sort of people. I personally feel their actions are the result of how things are and as such are just another thing we need to accept. Would I be pissed if somebody burned my business to the ground... yeah for a bit, but anything can be rebuilt.

Essentially, nothing is important enough to justify the sale of your own liberty.


--------------------
Om Bhur Bhuvah Svaha
Tat Savitur Varenyam
Bhargo Devasya Dhimahi
Dhiyo Yo Nah Prachodayat

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Re: Chaos as Anarchism- Looking for writers, groups etc.. [Re: Desert Elf]
    #16263177 -

Well the point of my thread was this. The elaboration of chaos in anarchism + real examples - authors etc..

On the contrary. I think the mainstream notion of anarchy is just a word without much depth. And the mainstream notion among political circles of anarchy is this forced notion of anarchism having strong socialistic roots and leaning toward collectivist politics alongside the idea of living without any or little governance.


I think the definition under a certain circumstance allows for chaos to be overt in the meaning of the term and interpreted version of anarchism.

Rather than anarchism being one thing and chaos being another thing like violent protest or simply an imagined means to take over society to live in peace among an anarchist ideal communal society.

What you will read may sound like immature belief systems or explanations but often the RPG character and bits of fictitious writing on chaos seems to have given me some ideas as to what i'm trying to find more of

Chaos-anarchy can stem as a way of living, a state of being, a circumstance to embrace or create.

Anarchy is state of lawlessness without order or governance combining disorder and chaos. Sometimes referred to a state of chaos alone. or the absence of government/rules ( which logically without any pre-planned system including (anarcho-communism) any system is chaos )

Chaos-Anarchy: a system/society/structure that has been destroyed (politically, environmentally, etc..) but manages to thrive through  crimecore, communal agreement etc.. a cluster of thriving groupings of people of various forms without any collectivist state, any form of order, or those to safeguard society to live in equality and peace. It allows groupings of people to do what they want according the rules of the jungle, circumstance, feud or continuing struggle (based on the pre-existing civilization or system) but it allows for greater freedom and few constraints compared to a governed society however consequences or risks are dependent on the remnants of the pre-existing powers/groups and social Darwinism. It can support the belief that among individuals of those who believe in supporting, maintaining and fighting for chaos alone can maintain it if they are strong enough. Chaos-Anarchist but not necessarily concerned with creating equality but maintaining it as a choice not a rule that may benefit his beliefs or himself).It depends if they can manage to maintain this. Chaos-Anarchy is appealing for the poor, crime-ridden, wild, the nihilist and disenfranchised. Rather than the innocent rebellious rich kid or the angry protestor. the ability to take out revenge and seek an orgasmic amount of pleasure, crime and decadence all the while maintaining it as much as you can is the essence of this chaos-anarchy. (Yes this includes unjust behavior cartoon like-imagery of pillaging, stealing, smashing, blowing up etc..) As well as tons of other things

An individualist egoist-chaos-anarchist seeks no morals ( or selects them according to will) and only works towards things that suit him regardless of rules. Takes advantage of what may come without remorse or fear to suit his own needs. Seeks opportunity to tear down rules (on any given subject), or things that impose on his own free will (could for social causes that go against his freedom or whom he deems relevant). Also tries to live a life do what he pleases (that could largely trample on social or societal, legal rules) and deals with friction in the most cunning way to maintain his chaos.

Or goes out of his way to destroy, bend, trample legal/societal rules for his own interests, pleasure, personal causes, but in a continuous and consistent manner.

Edited by gotbot (05/21/12 03:02 PM)

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Re: Chaos as Anarchism- Looking for writers, groups etc.. [Re: gotbot]
    #16266459 -

If you're looking for a personal approach to the subject, you shouldn't try to find it in philosophy books, as philosophy is considered a science.
Talk to the people around you, some might surprise you with how they sown chaos in their day to day lives.
All physicists will tell you that the things around you are constructed from an ordered form of chaos, as this reality is only one shown possibility. As we are excluded from perceiving all other possibilities, this is truth to us and we research it as such.


--------------------
Ik hou van je

While you're still sleeping the saints are still weepin' cause things you call dead haven't yet had the chance to be born. -Scatman John

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Re: Chaos as Anarchism- Looking for writers, groups etc.. [Re: gotbot]
    #16266814 -

The collaborations of Gilles Deleuze and Felix Guattari might interest of you. I don't think they identified as anarchists, but I think in spirit quite close to Bey's notion of "ontological anarchy". But take a look before buying all their books, some like their "Capitalism and Schizophrenia" books are pretty heavy to read. You might start with their "What is Philosophy?" book which I think is the easies one but also the least 'chaotic'.

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Re: Chaos as Anarchism- Looking for writers, groups etc.. [Re: gotbot]
    #16270001 -

Chaos and order are both illusions. There is only what is.

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Re: Chaos as Anarchism- Looking for writers, groups etc.. [Re: Icelander]
    #16271551 -

Icelander said:
sharon_needles said:
chaos is an illusion


prove it.  People who drop in with unsubstantiated claims are usually FOS.



Technically, we already live in chaos anarchy. because in chaos, there could still be groups, those who rule and those who obey. Like some kind of order in chaos, just like now. but there is no universal rule, the politics and ethics are still quite chaotic.

So I wouldn't claim we live in any other form than chaos, right now, until we have reached some kind of mutual ethical and emotional bounds that are no longer tied to our evolutionary ancestors. bechause right now, we are still monkeys.


--------------------

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Re: Chaos as Anarchism- Looking for writers, groups etc.. [Re: Simms]
    #16276507 -

"Technically, we already live in chaos anarchy. because in chaos, there could still be groups, those who rule and those who obey. Like some kind of order in chaos, just like now. but there is no universal rule, the politics and ethics are still quite chaotic.

So I wouldn't claim we live in any other form than chaos, right now, until we have reached some kind of mutual ethical and emotional bounds that are no longer tied to our evolutionary ancestors. bechause right now, we are still monkeys."

I disagree we live in a governed societies and believe in established socially constructed ideas of things that have chaotic tendencies but are not chaos.

The current and past states of Libya and Egypt are closer examples of real chaos.

Chaos with the abolition of the goverment or through a natural disaster will break down the concept of any government implying not more law enforcement, legality, etc... Fighting would only occur amongst groups individuals for freedom according to the rules of the  jungle that maintain anarchy for anyone who can maintain it battling (possible) gang warfare, left over social structures/groups from previous system, feuds, and violent reactions from injust activities/behaviors (perhpas caused by anarchists themeselves) etc..

Edited by gotbot (05/24/12 12:57 AM)

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Re: Chaos as Anarchism- Looking for writers, groups etc.. [Re: gotbot]
    #16276528 -

Take a look at Hakim Bey's books

Totally autonomous zones (TAZ) is the title that come to my mind

ok, i didnt read the first posts


I'll suggest that you look at this french autor.

Pierre-Joseph Proudhon

As for groups that could promote the anarchist lifestyle, i'd look for bars or markets that work as cooperatives. Here we have some reading circles and conferences that are situated in a cooperative bar, its useful to gather people of different horizons that could point you out some autors or other places to learn about the reality of the "movement" in your city

Edited by Amphibolos (05/24/12 12:53 AM)

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