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Re: To those who are against the war..... [Re: silversoul7]
    #1404149 -

So then you admit to being close-minded?

No. I just don't like to waste time.


--------------------
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?


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Re: To those who are against the war..... [Re: mntlfngrs]
    #1404151 -

Quote:
Bush is not alone here. He has a lot of very intelligent people who advise him on every issue. These adviseres know more about international issues and I'm sure many are smarter that most anyone on this board. Bush is way to stipid to have made it this far without relying on other people for help.


True, but if you look at the people advising him, many of them belong to this organization . If you support American global dominance, then alright, but if I, for one, do not.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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Re: To those who are against the war..... [Re: Murex]
    #1404152 -

Quote:
So then you admit to being close-minded?

No. I just don't like to waste time.


Afraid you might actually learn something which goes against your narrow-minded worldview?

Edit: I take it you didn't check out that website.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

Edited by silversoul7 (03/23/03 05:27 PM)

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Re: To those who are against the war..... [Re: Murex]
    #1404160 -

when i think about this shite, i cant help but think this may just be the time for the 'white man' (as if we are any different from any other color man) to spill its blood. i look back and see that just about every other ethnicity has been persecuted by white men. we sloughtered the indians, enslaved the blacks, killed millions of jews, and what has happened to us?

it seems like a big cycle to me, i think we will win the war, the after math will consume us, and bring this industrial empire to its knees.

then it is back to square one. just my two cents.


--------------------
Once you can accept the universe as matter expanding into nothing that is something, wearing stripes with plaid comes easy.
-Albert Einstein

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Re: To those who are against the war..... [Re: silversoul7]
    #1404165 -

I'm not a reader. Authors usually try to shape their readers into their way of thinking. It's best not to believe it or waste time on it.


--------------------
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?


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Re: To those who are against the war..... [Re: Murex]
    #1404173 -

The website I linked you to isn't the website of some conspiracy theorist saying that the U.S. is bent on global domination. It's an actual organization, with members like Dick Cheney, Donald Rumsfeld, and Paul Wolfowitz, who actually advocate global domination(tho they use the term "global leadership" to make it sound nicer).


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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Re: To those who are against the war..... [Re: mike]
    #1404191 -

i look back and see that just about every other ethnicity has been persecuted by white men. we sloughtered the indians, enslaved the blacks, killed millions of jews, and what has happened to us?

All white people are secretly all KKK members who want to kill all non-whites.


--------------------
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: To those who are against the war..... [Re: Murex]
    #1404226 -

I wouldn't say that our goals should to placate any countries either. Nor should we go about alienating our allies while attempting to protect ourselves. It has been the US's position that Iraq posesses WMD, and ties to Al Queda(sp). I believe we have also contended that we have proof of this, though I may be wrong. I think that the US handled the UN situation very poorly. The strength of the UN comes from the unity of it's members. We have effectively nullified any of whatever power the UN held in the first place. If we had concrete proof of the existance of WMD, I do not understand why the UN was unable to find any. That is not to say that they do not exist. However the burden of proof should not only lie with Iraq, but with the US. We are either going to come out of this as fools or as heros. Only time will tell.

As for ties to terrorism, there is certainly potential for them to be there with Iraq, not to mention a dozen other countries across the globe, which is one reason why we must remain wary of the global opinion of our country.

Furthermore, let us jump back in time to the Cold War. The current situation is somewhat similar to the Cold War. There was no question that the USSR had nuclear weapons. There was no question of the USSR's opinion of the US, nor of the US's opinion of the USSR. Unlike Iraq they had the means to directly use their weapons against us. We must realize as a nation that there are going to be countries which have the potential to cause great harm to the US. We must also realize that we cannot do anything about it without turning the world opinion against us. And rightfully so. Are we more entitled to use certain weapons than other countries? Why is it right for one country to posses certain weapons, and not right for another to? Does not the existance of a weapon imply that it will be used, or the potential for use? I understand the UN's resolution and believe it should be enforced.

That being said, I believe that the way the  United States has been going about this is very, for lack of a better word, sketchy. I do not think that the government has a strong resolute purpose for our actions. Originally this was supposed to be about terrorism. That's fine, cool, and groovy by me, but we are hearing very little on the terrorism front these days. I did hear something about an area in northern Iraq with potential ties to Al Queda earlier today however. Then we get on the WMD, chem, bio, and nuclear weapons kick and then try to tie those into the UN's resolutions. Then by our own actions render the UN worthless. Where is the sense in that? Then after we go to war, it is dubbed "Opperation Iraqi Freedom". Previous to the war there was all the talk about about Saddam being a tyranical leader, and about the poor people in Iraq, and how much they suffer under Saddam. Saddam is just one in a list of leaders in the world that tyranical and dastardly. We are not getting involved in any of them. It just happens to provide a convenient reason for us. The government is not offering up any more concern for any other nations. Then we get into replacing Saddam's regime and all that jazz. Won't work. As I said, it seems to me that we really do not have an ultimately concrete reason for being there. To me the government is offering up excuses, not reasons.  :confused: 


--------------------
"A study of the history of opinion is a necessary preliminary to the emancipation of the mind. I do not know which makes a man more conservative-to know nothing but the present, or nothing but the past." -John Maynard Keynes

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Re: To those who are against the war..... [Re: I_Fart_Blue]
    #1404247 -

I liked your post. But let me say this-

I do not understand why the UN was unable to find any.

Isn't it obvious?

Why is it right for one country to posses certain weapons, and not right for another to?

I'm pretty sure it's ok for any country to have nukes. We (Amerika) just doen't want a leader like Saddam to be able to obtain them. This is just one of many reasons we are at war.

Originally this was supposed to be about terrorism.

It's about more than just terrorism. Oil would however, not be one of the reasons.

Then by our own actions render the UN worthless.

It is worthless.



--------------------
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?


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Re: To those who are against the war..... [Re: Murex]
    #1404251 -

So you're happy handing dominion of life and death over the planet over to Shrub?

If it comes to the UN or Shrub I'm afraid i go with the UN.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Re: To those who are against the war..... [Re: Xlea321]
    #1404257 -

So you're happy handing dominion of life and death over the planet over to Shrub?

No- Just in this case, but I'm not a Bush lover by any means.

If it comes to the UN or Shrub I'm afraid i go with the UN.

The UN accomplishes nothing. It is a total joke.


--------------------
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?


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Re: To those who are against the war..... [Re: Murex]
    #1404260 -

Quote:
The UN accomplishes nothing. It is a total joke.


The UN has been a joke for a very long time.


--------------------
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson

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Re: To those who are against the war..... [Re: Murex]
    #1404295 -

I liked your post.
Thanks!

Isn't it obvious?

Not if we have proof. As I said to you in another post, we can only assume and presume, and to do so is dangerous. Imagine the anti-US sentiment world wide if we are wrong. Saddam is a sneeky assed bastard though. However I have a lot of faith in our spy-tech, and I think that if Iraq has WMD, we know about it. There may be a reason of which none of us are aware for the US not to share whatever intelligence we posess.

I'm pretty sure it's ok for any country to have nukes. We (Amerika) just doen't want a leader like Saddam to be able to obtain them. This is just one of many reasons we are at war.

I agree. The thought of Saddam posessing nukes is scary. For me, the thought of any nation posessing nuclear weapons is scary. Not that any weapons are nice, but they are truely devistating, indescriminate killers which have world-wide reprocussions.

It's about more than just terrorism. Oil would however, not be one of the reasons.

I agree. I do not think that oil has much, if anything to do with the war. I have a hard time thinking that the world sit back and twiddle thier thumbs if we were to take oil from Iraq. What does concern me though is hearing on TV the other day the talk of installing US oil companies in Iraq. I may have heard wrong as I was doing some reading, and the TV was on in the background.


It [the UN] is worthless.

See, I don't think so, and I think thats the wrong attitude to take. The UN does a lot of good througout the world. It offers up a lot of humanitarian aid (much of which is ours). As far as a military or police force, no, the UN does not hold a lot of power, at least not for us. Since we are the largest financial and military power in the UN, there is very little which they can do or enforce upon us. That does not mean that we should abuse this fact, but respect this fact, and keep a vigilant check upon our actions.


--------------------
"A study of the history of opinion is a necessary preliminary to the emancipation of the mind. I do not know which makes a man more conservative-to know nothing but the present, or nothing but the past." -John Maynard Keynes

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Re: To those who are against the war..... [Re: Zahid]
    #1404303 -

If I had my run of things, Murex. I'd have you executed for treason.

Don't tell me you're against me Zahid. Who wudda thunk?  :shocked:


--------------------
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: To those who are against the war..... [Re: I_Fart_Blue]
    #1404314 -

However I have a lot of faith in our spy-tech, and I think that if Iraq has WMD, we know about it. There may be a reason of which none of us are aware for the US not to share whatever intelligence we posess.

Our spy-tech can't watch everything all the time.

That does not mean that we should abuse this fact, but respect this fact, and keep a vigilant check upon our actions.

I wish the UN actually had power. That would do the world good.


--------------------
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: To those who are against the war..... [Re: Murex]
    #1404333 -

Our spy-tech can't watch everything all the time.

Agreed. It's a needle in a haystack sort of deal.

I wish the UN actually had power. That would do the world good.

Myself as well, which is why I am very dismayed at the way we have handled things here recently. What does it say to other countries if the world's most powerful country does not obey the UN? If the UN is going to last, it will only do so with our support, not deffiance.


--------------------
"A study of the history of opinion is a necessary preliminary to the emancipation of the mind. I do not know which makes a man more conservative-to know nothing but the present, or nothing but the past." -John Maynard Keynes

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Re: To those who are against the war..... [Re: Murex]
    #1404567 -

Quote:
They do. But It shouldn't make us act differently just to please them.



But hwat if their views are right and the US views are wrong.


--------------------
Always Smi2le

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Re: To those who are against the war..... [Re: Murex]
    #1405092 -

"You all remind me of spoiled children getting upset at their parents for no rational reason. Please stop taking freedom for granted. Try to put the pieces tougether by understanding Iraq and it's history. "

This is bullshit. I've seen people from both sides of the debate spew this nonsense. People who are for the war, and people who are against the war both have some very valid, well reasoned arguments. Sure, there are morons on both sides, but assuming that one side is fueled completely by false information and illogic is stupid and arrogant.

Here are some logical anti-war arguments. They may not be 100% accurate, but nobody knows all of the facts, and both sides are using speculation.

a) Iraq does not pose a threat. There is no logical reason to assume that they will attack the US, or any other country. They have not shown any aggression towards anyone since the first Gulf War. No weapons of mass destruction were found, and they were complying, albeit slowly, with inspectors.

b) Attacking Iraq will not make the United States any more of a free country.

c) Sure Saddam is a brutal dictator, who kills people, but how many people will die in a war? It seems quite likely that more people will die overall in a war than under his regime.

d) Will the new leader really be much better than Saddam? I seriously doubt that Iraq will magically become a happy stable place after this is all over.

e) There is a LOT of opposition to the war in the middle east, and there is already a LOT of anti-american sentiment. Is this really going to do anything to cut down on terrorism? It seems to me that this is just going to provoke bigger and more brutal attacks on the United States.



--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us

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Re: To those who are against the war..... [Re: Murex]
    #1405295 -

You all remind me of spoiled children getting upset at their parents for no rational reason. Please stop taking freedom for granted. Try to put the pieces tougether by understanding Iraq and it's history.

there are very good reasons for being opposed to this war.

Edited by mushmaster (03/24/03 07:01 AM)

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Re: To those who are against the war..... [Re: Murex]
    #1405305 -

Quote:
They do. But It shouldn't make us act differently just to please them.


The last time I checked the earth was made up of many different peoples, not just the United States.


--------------------
The proper penalty of ignorance, which is of course that those who don't know should learn from those who do... - Plato

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