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Offlinejimsuzo
I am the Eggman

Registered: 08/14/02
Posts: 269
Loc: Land of the not-so-free
Last seen: 7 years, 6 months
Why The Anti-War Movement Was Right
    #1475056 - 04/20/03 01:33 AM (14 years, 2 months ago)


Filed April 16, 2003

The Bible tells us that pride goeth before the fall. In Iraq, it cameth right after it.

From the moment that statue of Saddam hit the ground, the mood around the Rumsfeld campfire has been all high-fives, I-told-you-sos, and endless smug prattling about how the speedy fall of Baghdad is proof positive that those who opposed the invasion of Iraq were dead wrong.

What utter nonsense. In fact, the speedy fall of Baghdad proves the anti-war movement was dead right.

The whole pretext for our unilateral charge into Iraq was that the American people were in imminent danger from Saddam and his mighty war machine. The threat was so clear and present that we couldn't even give inspectors searching for weapons of mass destruction -- hey, remember those? -- another 30 days, as France had wanted.

Well, it turns out that, far from being on the verge of destroying Western civilization, Saddam and his 21st century Gestapo couldn't even muster a half-hearted defense of their own capital. The hawks' cakewalk disproves their own dire warnings. They can't have it both ways. The invasion has proved wildly successful in one other regard: It has unified most of the world -- especially the Arab world -- against us.

Back in 1991, more than half-a-dozen Arab nations were part of our Desert Storm coalition. Operation Iraqi Freedom's "coalition of the willing" had zero. Not even the polygamous potentates of Kuwait -- whose butts we saved last time out and who were most threatened by whatever threat Iraq still presented -- would join us. And, I'm sorry, but substituting Bulgaria and the island of Tonga for Egypt and Oman is just not going to cut it when it comes to winning hearts and minds on the Arab street.

In fact, almost everything about the invasion -- from the go-it-alone build-up to the mayhem the fall of Saddam has unleashed -- has played right into the hands of those intent on demonizing our country. Islamic extremists must be having a field day signing up recruits for the holy war they're preparing to wage against us. Instead of Uncle Sam wants you, their recruiting posters feature a different kind of patriotic image: an American soldier ill-advisedly draping the American flag over Saddam's face.

The anti-war movement did not oppose the war out of fear that America was going to lose. It was the Bush administration's pathological and frantic obsession with an immediate, damn-the-consequences invasion that fueled the protests.

And please don't point to jubilant Iraqis dancing in the streets to validate the case for "pre-emptive liberation." You'd be doing the Baghdad Bugaloo too if the murderous tyrant who'd been eating off golden plates while your family starved finally got what was coming to him. It in no way proves that running roughshod over international law and pouring Iraqi oil -- now brought to you by the good folks at Halliburton -- onto the flames of anti-American hatred was a good idea. It wasn't before the war, and it still isn't now. The unintended consequences have barely begun to unfold.

And the idea that our slamdunk of Saddam actually proves the White House was right is particularly dangerous because it encourages the Wolfowitzes and the Perles and the Cheneys to argue that we should be invading Syria or Iran or North Korea or Cuba as soon as we catch our breath. They've tasted blood.

It's important to remember that the Arab world has seen a very different war than we have. They are seeing babies with limbs blown off, children wailing beside their dead mothers, Arab journalists killed by American tanks and bombers, holy men hacked to death and dragged through the streets. They are seeing American forces leaving behind a wake of destruction, looting, hunger, humiliation, and chaos.

Who's been handling our war PR, Osama bin Laden? The language and imagery are all wrong. Having Tom DeLay gush about our "army of virtue" at the same time we're blowing up mosques is definitely not sending the right message to a Muslim world already suspicious that we're waging a war on Islam.

Neither is Ari Fleischer's claim that the administration can't do anything to keep Christian missionaries -- including those who have described the Islamic prophet Muhammad as a "demon-possessed pedophile" and a "terrorist" -- from going on a holy crusade to Baghdad. You think the Arab world might take that the wrong way? If there is one thing that could bring Sunnis and Shiites together, it's the common hatred of evangelical zealots who denigrate their prophet.

And it doesn't help to have the American media referring to Jay Garner, the retired general Don Rumsfeld picked to oversee the rebuilding of Iraq, as "viceroy." It reeks of colonial imperialism. Why not just call him "Head Bwana?" Or "Garner of Arabia?" I didn't realize the Supreme Court had handed Bush a scepter to go along with the Florida recount.

The powerful role that shame and humiliation have played in shaping world history is considerable, but something the Bush team seems utterly clueless about. Which is why the anti-war movement must be stalwart in its refusal to be silenced or browbeaten by the gloating "I told you so" chorus on the right. On the contrary, it needs to make sure that the doctrine of preemptive invasion is forever buried in the sands of Iraq.

Especially as the administration, high on the heady fumes of Saddam's ouster, turns its covetous eyes on Syria. I give it less than a week before someone starts making the case that President Assad is the next Hitler.

Arianna online


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There are roughly nine galaxies for every person alive on the planet today. Each of these galaxies has a billion suns, give or take the odd hundred million


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Offlinewingnutx
Registered: 09/25/00
Posts: 2,268
Last seen: 6 years, 1 day
Re: Why The Anti-War Movement Was Right [Re: jimsuzo]
    #1479950 - 04/21/03 08:35 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

The whole pretext for our unilateral charge into Iraq was that the American people were in imminent danger from Saddam and his mighty war machine.




Wrong. Nobody ever said they were a direct military threat to the US. To their neighbors, yes. To everyone in their capacity to sponsor terrorism, yes. In direct military action against the US, nope.


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OfflineLearyfan
It's the psychedelic movement!
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Registered: 04/20/01
Posts: 30,085
Loc: High pride!
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Re: Why The Anti-War Movement Was Right [Re: wingnutx]
    #1480011 - 04/21/03 08:50 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Wrong. Nobody ever said they were a direct military threat to the US. To their neighbors, yes. To everyone in their capacity to sponsor terrorism, yes. In direct military action against the US, nope.





I don't have a source to back up this comment, but that's just not right. It was all about taking down Saddam because he was going to get the US any minute now if we didn't .



--------------------
--------------------------------


Mp3 of the month: Park Avenue Playground - The Trip



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Offlinewingnutx
Registered: 09/25/00
Posts: 2,268
Last seen: 6 years, 1 day
Re: Why The Anti-War Movement Was Right [Re: Learyfan]
    #1480079 - 04/21/03 09:07 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Get us how? Not with tanks and bombers. That's just silly.


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Anonymous

Re: Why The Anti-War Movement Was Right [Re: wingnutx]
    #1480106 - 04/21/03 09:15 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Get us how? Not with tanks and bombers. That's just silly.

yep. it sure is.


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Offlinejimsuzo
I am the Eggman

Registered: 08/14/02
Posts: 269
Loc: Land of the not-so-free
Last seen: 7 years, 6 months
Re: Why The Anti-War Movement Was Right [Re: wingnutx]
    #1481966 - 04/22/03 11:44 AM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

...That's just silly.




Isn't the notion of an idiot being the president of the US a bit silly in itself? I mean think about it. This is a man with I'd guess an IQ barely into the triple digits. Who knows what he really thinks. I figure he thinks primarily with his wallet and his christian fundamentalist faith - which is a load of crap. silly indeed.



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There are roughly nine galaxies for every person alive on the planet today. Each of these galaxies has a billion suns, give or take the odd hundred million


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Offlinewingnutx
Registered: 09/25/00
Posts: 2,268
Last seen: 6 years, 1 day
Re: Why The Anti-War Movement Was Right [Re: jimsuzo]
    #1482011 - 04/22/03 12:13 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Do you always attack another subject when you don't have a good reply to the topic at hand?


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Invisiblez@z.com
Libertarian
Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 2,876
Loc: ATL
Re: Why The Anti-War Movement Was Right [Re: jimsuzo]
    #1482275 - 04/22/03 02:09 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Its my favorite liberal tactic. When in doubt bash Bush and Christianity. Nice job.


--------------------
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson


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Offlinejimsuzo
I am the Eggman

Registered: 08/14/02
Posts: 269
Loc: Land of the not-so-free
Last seen: 7 years, 6 months
Re: Why The Anti-War Movement Was Right [Re: wingnutx]
    #1483279 - 04/22/03 07:18 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)



Quote:

Do you always attack another subject when you don't have a good reply to the topic at hand?




No, I generally try not to do that. I will admit to being on a bit of a Christian-bashing mood of late. Bush I always bash. Maybe this multi-tasking is getting to me.

Is there a specific post that you feel warrants my reply? If so, please direct me towards it.



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There are roughly nine galaxies for every person alive on the planet today. Each of these galaxies has a billion suns, give or take the odd hundred million


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Offlinewingnutx
Registered: 09/25/00
Posts: 2,268
Last seen: 6 years, 1 day
Re: Why The Anti-War Movement Was Right [Re: jimsuzo]
    #1483292 - 04/22/03 07:21 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

No one in the Bush administration claimed that Iraq was a conventional military threat to our country. Your first post there is a big squishy strawman.


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OfflineyelimS
bohem

Registered: 02/03/03
Posts: 717
Last seen: 7 years, 5 months
Re: Why The Anti-War Movement Was Right [Re: wingnutx]
    #1483302 - 04/22/03 07:24 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Look at Learyfans picture. I smell I*R*O*N*Y


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Offlinejimsuzo
I am the Eggman

Registered: 08/14/02
Posts: 269
Loc: Land of the not-so-free
Last seen: 7 years, 6 months
Re: Why The Anti-War Movement Was Right [Re: wingnutx]
    #1483398 - 04/22/03 07:49 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

If you'll notice, my original post was excerpted from an editorial column. While I may not agree 100% with everything within it, I do subscribe to most of what that particular person is saying. Your point of contention seems to be the bit about "The whole pretext for our unilatera charge into Iraq was that the American people were in imminent danger from Saddam and his mighty war machine...."

OK fair enough, maybe it wasn't the 'American People' under immediate threat, but there was obviously in Dubyas mind 'an immediate threat' from the infamous WMDs that Saddam was hording, be it Israel (a US state), other Arab nations that are little more than the Uncle Toms of the Arab world, or the 'American' way of life in general (i.e. capitalism, greed, Mc-fucking-donalds, and yes, Christianity).

What is clear and undebatable is that the threat in Bush's mind was perceived as immediate, why else could he not wait an additional 30 days as France requested? oh yeah what about the infamous WMD's?? Where are they?


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There are roughly nine galaxies for every person alive on the planet today. Each of these galaxies has a billion suns, give or take the odd hundred million


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Offlinewingnutx
Registered: 09/25/00
Posts: 2,268
Last seen: 6 years, 1 day
Re: Why The Anti-War Movement Was Right [Re: jimsuzo]
    #1483597 - 04/22/03 08:50 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

A threat to civilians by, say, a liter of anthrax is not disproved by our cimnplete victory in conventional warfare. It is apples and oranges.


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Offlinejimsuzo
I am the Eggman

Registered: 08/14/02
Posts: 269
Loc: Land of the not-so-free
Last seen: 7 years, 6 months
Re: Why The Anti-War Movement Was Right [Re: wingnutx]
    #1484621 - 04/23/03 12:58 AM (14 years, 2 months ago)

So what your saying is that it was OK to go in and kill a lot of innocent people over a quart of anthrax?

To digress a bit (but not to start attacking something else to avoid your comments): Bush in one of his emotionally charged, cliche-riddled addresses said something to the effect of (pardon me for not remembering the 'exact quote) "...if miltary action prevents the loss of one more 'American' life to terrorists, then it is worthwhile." To me this implies that American lives are worth more to him than say, the life of the nine-year old Iraqi boy that had both arms blown off. That's what gets to me about this whole thing. Killing Americans is wrong, but killing innocent Iraqis is not because it makes the world a safer place for Americans. Let me ask you this - Do YOU feel safer now? I certainly don't. In fact, i only today received an email from the US embassy where i live (see below) - it certainly looks like Uncle Sam doesn't think things are safer either (hey - whaddya know? - I actually agree with the US government! Maybe there's hope for me yet!!

US Embassy Notification:

This supersedes the Worldwide Caution dated March 19, 2003. It is being
issued to remind U.S. citizens of the continuing threat of terrorist
actions
that may target civilians and of the need to remain vigilant. The U.S.
Government remains deeply concerned about the security of U.S. citizens
overseas. U.S. citizens are encouraged to maintain a high level of
vigilance and to take appropriate steps to increase their security
awareness. This Worldwide Caution expires on September 20, 2003.

Tensions remaining from the recent events in Iraq may increase the
potential
threat to U.S. citizens and interests abroad, including by terrorist
groups.
Terrorist actions may include, but are not limited to, suicide
operations,
bombings or kidnappings. Possible threats include conventional weapons
such
as explosive devices or non-conventional weapons, including chemical or
biological agents. Terrorists do not distinguish between official and
civilian targets. These may include facilities where American citizens
and
other foreigners congregate or visit, such as residential areas, clubs,
restaurants, places of worship, schools, hotels, outdoor recreation
events
or resorts and beaches. If such facilities cannot be avoided, U.S.
citizens
should increase their security awareness at such locations.

U.S. Government facilities worldwide remain at a heightened state of
alert.
These facilities may temporarily close or suspend public services from
time
to time for security reasons. In those instances, U.S. embassies and
consulates will make every effort to provide emergency services to U.S.
citizens. Americans are urged to monitor the local news and maintain
contact with the nearest American embassy or consulate.

As the Department of State continues to develop information on any
potential
security threats to U.S. citizens overseas, it shares credible threat
information through its Consular Information Program documents, available
on
the Internet at http://travel.state.gov. In addition to information on
the
Internet, U.S. travelers can get up-to-date information on security
conditions by calling 1-888-407-4747 in the U.S. and outside the U.S. and
Canada on a regular toll line at 1-317-472-2328.




--------------------
There are roughly nine galaxies for every person alive on the planet today. Each of these galaxies has a billion suns, give or take the odd hundred million


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Offlinewingnutx
Registered: 09/25/00
Posts: 2,268
Last seen: 6 years, 1 day
Re: Why The Anti-War Movement Was Right [Re: jimsuzo]
    #1485685 - 04/23/03 12:16 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Yes, it was absolutely the right thing to do, and it's not a single quart of anthrax, but literally tons.

A single quart, btw, could kill millions. It's next to worthless against our military, but would be very effective against unprotected civilians.

The same goes for botulin, cobalt-60, and sarin. The whole premise of your post is false.


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Why The Anti-War Movement Was Right [Re: wingnutx]
    #1485732 - 04/23/03 12:29 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Yes, it was absolutely the right thing to do, and it's not a single quart of anthrax, but literally tons.

So where is this "tons of anthrax"? And why didn't Saddam use it to prevent himself being overthrown? You'd think if he was ever going to use that would've been the time.

A single quart, btw, could kill millions

Millions?

First, developing materials in pure enough forms to allow for effective dissemination is extraordinarily complex, and second, distributing the materials in a wide enough area to effect large numbers of people remains dauntingly difficult. In more than a dozen attempts to release botulism and anthrax Aum failed to kill anyone at all. Eventually, the cult managed to release the chemical agent sarin on the Tokyo underground and killed 12 people, not the tens of thousands they were hoping to kill.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/1608377.stm


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Male

Registered: 02/09/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
Re: Why The Anti-War Movement Was Right [Re: Learyfan]
    #1485772 - 04/23/03 12:51 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

I don't have a source to back up this comment, but that's just not right. It was all about taking down Saddam because he was going to get the US any minute now if we didn't .




shocking, you don't have a source...you're hatred of bush is leaking through again.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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Offlinewingnutx
Registered: 09/25/00
Posts: 2,268
Last seen: 6 years, 1 day
Re: Why The Anti-War Movement Was Right [Re: Xlea321]
    #1485792 - 04/23/03 12:58 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

And why didn't Saddam use it to prevent himself being overthrown? You'd think if he was ever going to use that would've been the time.





Anthrax would be useless against our military. It's only good against undefended civilian targets. Ditto for sarin.

Quote:

Millions?





Yes, millions. A quart is a hell of a lot of spores. Go ask someone on the cultivation board how many spores would make up a quart. Anthrax spores are even smaller.


Edited by wingnutx (04/23/03 01:01 PM)


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Invisiblez@z.com
Libertarian
Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 2,876
Loc: ATL
Re: Why The Anti-War Movement Was Right [Re: wingnutx]
    #1485856 - 04/23/03 01:16 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Yes, millions. A quart is a hell of a lot of spores. Go ask someone on the cultivation board how many spores would make up a quart. Anthrax spores are even smaller.



That would of course be assuming that he has one hell of a good way to deploy the anthrax. I doubt he does, but that doesn't really matter as he is not supposed to have any anthrax (not saying he does). IF he has even a few tablespoons of the shit then he is in violation of the cease fire.


--------------------
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson


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Offlinewingnutx
Registered: 09/25/00
Posts: 2,268
Last seen: 6 years, 1 day
Re: Why The Anti-War Movement Was Right [Re: z@z.com]
    #1485861 - 04/23/03 01:20 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Dump it a tablespoon at a time into the AC units of high-rise buildings, or the ventiliation of a subway system. Weaponized anthrax wafts through the air like talcum powder. 10 guys with a liter each could really fuck shit up, and they would easily go undetected.

Even the horrendously inefficient method of dumping it into envelopes and mailing it killed a few people.


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