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Evolutionary law Vs. Civilization, humanity and ethics
    #12938373 -

Based on the concept of evolution and the biological law of carrying capacity, evolution meaning that those who are unfit to survive will not be painfully kept alive and carrying capacity meaning natural food produced by the land providing for people and keeping people from exceeding the limit thereby starving, can it said that civilization is the cause of most human woes as it keeps people alive beyond their individual means causing starvation, unnecessary prolonged life, war(based on the fact that our agriculture creates an unnaturally high population and without it there would not be enough production of people to fight), people forced to work for their lives(as there is no other option for getting food, whereas if we lived out in nature it would be readily available or we would not be able to survive), all the sad states that men end up in without just dying(such as prisons and mad houses), and finally the fact that we must live in these houses by night and at work by day instead of simply living out in nature?

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Re: Evolutionary law Vs. Civilization, humanity and ethics [Re: Wise Toad]
    #12939420 -

Wise Toad said:
Based on the concept of evolution and the biological law of carrying capacity, evolution meaning that those who are unfit to survive will not be painfully kept alive and carrying capacity meaning natural food produced by the land providing for people and keeping people from exceeding the limit thereby starving, can it be said that civilization is the cause of most human woes as it keeps people alive beyond their individual means causing starvation, unnecessary prolonged life, war(based on the fact that our agriculture creates an unnaturally high population and without it there would not be enough production of people to fight), people forced to work for their lives(as there is no other option for getting food, whereas if we lived out in nature it would be readily available or we would not be able to survive), all the sad states that men end up in without just dying(such as prisons and mad houses), and finally the fact that we must live in these houses by night and at work by day instead of simply living out in nature?


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Re: Evolutionary law Vs. Civilization, humanity and ethics [Re: Wise Toad]
    #12941624 -

Civilization is not without perks, namely safety above all else, but not excluding food, culture and technology.

People still die and suffer in the wild, that is the evolution your talking about, thats what it is, species or individuals that dont do well either starve or get eaten before breeding age or live an entire life without breeding

I understand your point about the prisons and homeless people who just have suck ass lives, but I dont see why we should blame society when society has the potential to fix the problem...

Above all else, I dont understand why you dont just go join nature?
If the societal contract sucks so bad just go break it...Live in some national park or buy a lot of land somewhere or go find a rural country with a big jungle to live in...

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Re: Evolutionary law Vs. Civilization, humanity and ethics [Re: Budske]
    #12943060 -

its interesting about the homeless people, they only survive because they can savage off the excess of civilization. If people acted like that in a tribal setting they would be kicked out and die alone.

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Re: Evolutionary law Vs. Civilization, humanity and ethics [Re: Budske]
    #12943112 -

Above all else, I dont understand why you dont just go join nature?
If the societal contract sucks so bad just go break it...Live in some national park or buy a lot of land somewhere or go find a rural country with a big jungle to live in...

Well that's kind of silly isn't it. How could you do that without the benefit of and utilizing the society you are in? You would need a support system, money, or the permission of that system to use their land and resources.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Evolutionary law Vs. Civilization, humanity and ethics [Re: Icelander]
    #12943118 -

I could be one of those crazy fucks that goes off to live with the grizilies in alaska but I'm addicted to miniput.

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Re: Evolutionary law Vs. Civilization, humanity and ethics [Re: Freedom]
    #12943362 -

Those Alaskan grizzlies are addicted to crazy hippie fucks. Better'n salmon!


--------------------

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Re: Evolutionary law Vs. Civilization, humanity and ethics [Re: Icelander]
    #12943406 -

Perhaps your point is true for the national park thing, and I doubt they would just let you live there. But if you want to truly live somewhere off the land like your ancestors then sell your things that you own, find some cheap land in the rural south, I live by alot of it, and live off the land.Maybe even take friends with you and you can have a tribe...

If you cant afford that, there are countries that are accessible on every continent that have large jungles and forests.

Im just saying society has its perks which for me outweigh the detriments. When compared to living in the wilderness I would say the detriments outweigh the perks...

Ive thought about living in the wilderness alone myself many times, and I think I just might one day for a brief period of time, it sounds fun.

Edited by Budske (07/23/10 10:25 PM)

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Re: Evolutionary law Vs. Civilization, humanity and ethics [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #12943477 -

those who initially survived out in nature were very well adapted to their surroundings, you gotta think humans have been around a long time (about 3,000,000 years)and in a tribal setting they were completely connected to their past as opposed to our culture who want as little do with ancesters, their generation ,and the knowledge as what they pass down usually doesn't work well for people but is a more scientifically inclined specific knowledge that would(for the most part) be useless in the absence of civilization, meaning that all the knowledge those tribal people we destroyed had was perfect for living a leisurely life out in nature, on average they only had to work two hours a day to get food and to them it wasn't like having a job it was a trek through nature to find fruit or other animals to eat, which brings up another problem with society(specifically our fast food culture) all of the sad unfit people are created because their diet was supposed to consist of plants and small amounts of unprocessed meat and instead consists of a big mac with large frys and a mcfrosty, plus the lack of exercise that we should get wandering out in nature, we would be the most advanced beings on the planet competing on a very low level as compared to working hard all day competing with each other in society, we are as perfectly fit as any other animal plus our abilities, and the fact that we are omnivores allows us to survive in some very harsh situations. Nature life would be the easiest but if anyone from our society tried to go out and live that way they would be destroyed for land or by the fact that we have been raised in a civilization like ours, surrounded by concrete, without the skills that we should have been raised with. Also thanks to my source on a lot of the facts, that being "Ishmael" by Daniel Quinn

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Re: Evolutionary law Vs. Civilization, humanity and ethics [Re: Budske]
    #12943511 -

My word it sounds fun.

I've done something simmilar to this when i tryed to see how far i could go up the coast of australia with no money.

I didnt exactly live off the land but instead utilized my experience as a teenager when i was a shoplifter. (i dont give a shit about your moral views on that, the way i see it, places like woolworths rip off the exact same people who would stick up for them if they were to propose an argument anyway) And slep in the bush.

It was a bit of a concern crossing peoples proppertys because i wouldnt wanna be confronted by anyone on their land, but i didnt wanna walk right next to the road either, or go too far out from any town. I had nothing to use for hunting so i stayed within say 25k from amentitys.

This was the first time id ever done this, and although it was a fairly liberating, the detriments did outweigh the perks.

I basicaly did it as  voluntary isolation to d tox myself off of the grog and bongs so i could think straight for a little while. And reduce my stress a bit, and it worked quite well.

ALSO: I agree very much with what wise toad is saying. You put it better than i could though. I have thought alot about this, especialy out in nature, and i recon its a goer. Atleast for a while, i might take some really basic things and see how long i last, but id definatly do it in a nomadic fashion, moving most days.


--------------------
Ronda Nina...

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Re: Evolutionary law Vs. Civilization, humanity and ethics [Re: Crumpet]
    #12943533 -

Its not all fun and games I hope you realize...

In most places there are predators that hunt you for food...

Winter gets F*cking cold with basic shelter and clothes or a small fire...

Most people dont make it past the age of 30, I agree there is an obesity problem etc etc but thats because people are lazy, not that society is bad... I have a farmers market down the highway, fresh grown in 20 minutes, If I wanna go for a walk in nature its just outside, or a nature park down the road...

I know that we need to find a way to incorporate nature into society more, but just appreciate what you got, it took many many years to get this good...:tongue:

Crumpet said:
I've done something simmilar to this when i tryed to see how far i could go up the coast of australia with no money.



:thumbup: good stuff

Edited by Budske (07/23/10 11:05 PM)

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Re: Evolutionary law Vs. Civilization, humanity and ethics [Re: Wise Toad]
    #12943535 -

Wise Toad said:
those who initially survived out in nature were very well adapted to their surroundings, you gotta think humans have been around a long time (about 3,000,000 years)...

Human - Wikipedia:
Quote:
Mitochondrial DNA and fossil evidence indicates that modern humans originated in Africa about 200,000 years ago.




Wise Toad said:
...and in a tribal setting they were completely connected to their past as opposed to our culture who want as little do with ancesters, their generation ,and the knowledge as what they pass down usually doesn't work well for people but is a more scientifically inclined specific knowledge that would(for the most part) be useless in the absence of civilization, meaning that all the knowledge those tribal people we destroyed had was perfect for living a leisurely life out in nature, on average they only had to work two hours a day to get food and to them it wasn't like having a job it was a trek through nature to find fruit or other animals to eat, which brings up another problem with society(specifically our fast food culture) all of the sad unfit people are created because their diet was supposed to consist of plants and small amounts of unprocessed meat and instead consists of a big mac with large frys and a mcfrosty, plus the lack of exercise that we should get wandering out in nature, we would be the most advanced beings on the planet competing on a very low level as compared to working hard all day competing with each other in society, we are as perfectly fit as any other animal plus our abilities, and the fact that we are omnivores allows us to survive in some very harsh situations.

That's gotta be the most obscenely long run-on sentence I've ever seen here, "wise" my ass. :lol:

Not to mention that everything included therein is a bunch of bullshit. :glittershitz:



Wise Toad said:
Nature life would be the easiest but if anyone from our society tried to go out and live that way they would be destroyed for land or by the fact that we have been raised in a civilization like ours, surrounded by concrete, without the skills that we should have been raised with.

And if Tarzan came into civilization and tried to survive, he'd probably experience a similar fate. :shrug:



Wise Toad said:
Also thanks to my source on a lot of the facts, that being "Ishmael" by Daniel Quinn

What facts? :confused:



Budske said:
Most people dont make it past the age of 30

Source?

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Re: Evolutionary law Vs. Civilization, humanity and ethics [Re: Budske]
    #12943566 -

Cool, iv often thought of doin that but have never had a good opportunity, the concept of property ownership is a big flaw in my plan as it would be hard to get any plants growing or animals to hunt as people would chop down the crops, kill all the animals, and probably shoot me for being on thier land

In most places there are predators that hunt you for food...

very untrue, our skill and dexterity would simply overwhilm any predators who couldn't compete with even the most basic of our fashioned weapons, our intellegence created the hunting aspect in the hunter gatherer lifestyle, one that no other animal could hope to match, plus in an organized group as humans are supposed to be out there, no animal would come close to being a match for us. Obliterating any thought of THE WILD.

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Re: Evolutionary law Vs. Civilization, humanity and ethics [Re: Wise Toad]
    #12943582 -

Wise Toad said:
In most places there are predators that hunt you for food...

very untrue, our skill and dexterity would simply overwhilm any predators who couldn't compete with even the most basic of our fashioned weapons, our intellegence created the hunting aspect in the hunter gatherer lifestyle, one that no other animal could hope to match, plus in an organized group as humans are supposed to be out there, no animal would come close to being a match for us. Obliterating any thought of THE WILD.

And from that, civilization is born. :lol:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: Evolutionary law Vs. Civilization, humanity and ethics [Re: Wise Toad]
    #12943583 -

Im not writing fast and high:pipesmoke: here to look pretty, the facts are accurate, have you actually read Ishmael, look into this more before you start calling it bs:rolleyes:

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Re: Evolutionary law Vs. Civilization, humanity and ethics [Re: Wise Toad]
    #12943614 -

Which facts are accurate? Are you talking about the "fact" that humans have been around for 3 million years?


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: Evolutionary law Vs. Civilization, humanity and ethics [Re: Wise Toad]
    #12943620 -

Ive heard the figure many times, for now out of laziness I will insert a wikipedia article that has been sourced, but if you want to insist on the issue I would be happy to take the time of looking it up in a book proper:tongue:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life_expectancy#cite_note-britannica-9

Wise Toad said:
very untrue, our skill and dexterity would simply overwhilm any predators who couldn't compete with even the most basic of our fashioned weapons, our intellegence created the hunting aspect in the hunter gatherer lifestyle, one that no other animal could hope to match, plus in an organized group as humans are supposed to be out there, no animal would come close to being a match for us. Obliterating any thought of THE WILD.


...Are you serious?

you know that people are still killed every year from wild animals right?

If your going in to kill a lion or bear with a spear then goodluck my friend

Even if you can kill one in a hunting party, how about when you go in the bushes for a piss...

Or how about a snake... in the wild you are more susceptible to poisons because there is no antivenom...

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Re: Evolutionary law Vs. Civilization, humanity and ethics [Re: Poid]
    #12943655 -

How long have we been evolving hmmm, are we not perfectly suited for this world, and even if the human animal were only around as long as you said our culture having done so much damage in what is still a very short evolutionary time is incredible, all those species that have gone extinct bc of us will never be replaced(at least not within the next several hundred million years which it took the original species to develop) and by doing so we are limiting biodiversity, and the whole point of that is stability of life on this planet. Say we keep doing what we have been doing and we bring it from millions of species to thousands, the life on this planet would be very unstable and what if a catastrophe occurs like the one that killed off the dinosaurs, or the ice age, without those diverse species that could survive such hostile temps or events there would be no animal life to rise back up as mammals did after the dinos were gone.

because there is no antivenom not that there is any antivenom anyway http://lifestyle.msn.com/your-life/bigger-picture/article.aspx?cp-documentid=24682236 and yes people do still get killed by animals but how many people have died from war or crime recently, the ratio of animal deaths to human deaths is in our favor

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Re: Evolutionary law Vs. Civilization, humanity and ethics [Re: Budske]
    #12943694 -

You must be from the city. City folk always think predators are gonna eat you.

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Re: Evolutionary law Vs. Civilization, humanity and ethics [Re: Freedom]
    #12943713 -

Freedom said:
You must be from the city. City folk always think predators are gonna eat you.


:rofl2:

also i read the wikipedia life expectancy link u posted budske, 35+ years sounds good to me, why teh hell would I want to be 70, Live for today :bigjoint:

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