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OfflineAhimsa
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Nagarjuna: Essence and Existence (Nihilism)
    #11402482 - 11/07/09 05:23 AM (7 years, 11 months ago)

  • It makes no sense to say that an essence arises from causes and conditions.
  • If there are essences then there are real differences between things.
  • Thinking in terms of essences and real differences, the truth is not grasped.
  • If only entities with essences really exist, then there is no non-existence, nor can anything change.
  • Recognise that entities are without essences.
  • However, to say 'it is' creates essentialism. To say 'it is not' is to create nihilism.
  • To say: "An entity with an essence cannot not-exist." This is essentialism.
  • To say: "An entity without essence cannot exist at all." This is nihilism.


Feel free to discuss what you think Nagarjuna is trying to say.


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InvisibleRationalEgo
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Re: Nagarjuna: Essence and Existence (Nihilism) [Re: Ahimsa]
    #11402490 - 11/07/09 05:27 AM (7 years, 11 months ago)

He is talking ------> :glittershitz:

It's like any mentally masturbating pseudo philosopher, they talk in circles, try to sound intelligent, use circular logic, rinse and repeat.

That is all.


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OfflineAhimsa
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Re: Nagarjuna: Essence and Existence (Nihilism) [Re: RationalEgo]
    #11402497 - 11/07/09 05:30 AM (7 years, 11 months ago)

If you don't want to give it a serious go then please refrain from posting in this thread.
Besides i think it is you people who go round is circles never getting anywhere.
Thank you. :waits:


Edited by Ahimsa (11/07/09 05:32 AM)


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InvisibleSleepwalker
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Re: Nagarjuna: Essence and Existence (Nihilism) [Re: RationalEgo]
    #11402499 - 11/07/09 05:30 AM (7 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

RationalEgo said:
He is talking ------> :glittershitz:

It's like any mentally masturbating pseudo philosopher, they talk in circles, try to sound intelligent, use circular logic, rinse and repeat.

That is all.




Sure, if you decide to ignore the message behind the words. :crazy2:


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InvisibleRationalEgo
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Re: Nagarjuna: Essence and Existence (Nihilism) [Re: Sleepwalker]
    #11402501 - 11/07/09 05:32 AM (7 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Oweyervishice said:
Quote:

RationalEgo said:
He is talking ------> :glittershitz:

It's like any mentally masturbating pseudo philosopher, they talk in circles, try to sound intelligent, use circular logic, rinse and repeat.

That is all.




Sure, if you decide to ignore the message behind the words. :crazy2:




Gosh, I never thought of that.

There is a message hidden behind those words!!!!

How mysterious and fascinating! :rolleyes:


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InvisibleSleepwalker
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Re: Nagarjuna: Essence and Existence (Nihilism) [Re: Ahimsa]
    #11402502 - 11/07/09 05:32 AM (7 years, 11 months ago)

When I look in the mirror and talk to myself...it is still a two-way conversation.  I have no true self essence beyond reality itself...

The universe is looking through "me" and trying to figure out wtf is going on..

THAT'S ALL :rolleyes:


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InvisibleSleepwalker
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Re: Nagarjuna: Essence and Existence (Nihilism) [Re: RationalEgo]
    #11402503 - 11/07/09 05:33 AM (7 years, 11 months ago)

Ok, keep it up tough guy.


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OfflineAhimsa
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Re: Nagarjuna: Essence and Existence (Nihilism) [Re: Sleepwalker]
    #11402508 - 11/07/09 05:37 AM (7 years, 11 months ago)

So do you regard the entities 'me', 'universe' and 'reality' as having an essence?


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InvisibleRationalEgo
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Re: Nagarjuna: Essence and Existence (Nihilism) [Re: Ahimsa]
    #11402659 - 11/07/09 06:59 AM (7 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Ahimsa said:
  • It makes no sense to say that an essence arises from causes and conditions.





Does he ever define what an essence is? Entities arise with cause and effect. Cause = momma and pappa fucking, Effect = entity being pushed into the world through mammas stretched out vag. If by essence, he means 'nature', then yes, the nature of an entity is a metaphysical given.

Quote:



  • If there are essences then there are real differences between things.





  • There are real differences between things, duh.

    Quote:



  • Thinking in terms of essences and real differences, the truth is not grasped.






  • Now here is where he just makes a blind assertion without definition. What 'truth' is not grasped becuase of the differences between things? Is he trying to invalidate all knowledge, reason and indeed all scientific discoveries, becuase they all rely on differentiating between things? Or is he implying that tired old bromide of 'all is one, and nothing is different or separate from anything else' hippie nonsense?

    Quote:



  • If only entities with essences really exist, then there is no non-existence, nor can anything change.






  • This makes no sense. So becuase things exist and have particular natures, things cannot change? Faulty logic.

    Quote:



  • Recognise that entities are without essences.






  • What he is basically advising is that we should ignroe that things exist and have different natures. What an idiot.

    Quote:


  • However, to say 'it is' creates essentialism. To say 'it is not' is to create nihilism.





  • To say 'it is' is a statement about a certain concrete fact of reality. It does not create anything, it is merely a statement. Our thoughts about things do not change reality. To say 'it is not' is making a statement as to the fact that something does not exist or does not exist with a particular nature. Again this is just a statement, it does not change the facts of reality. Neither of this has anything to do with 'essentialism' (whatever that is) or Nihilism.

    Quote:


  • To say: "An entity with an essence cannot not-exist." This is essentialism.





  • Nonsense. He is talking bull crap again. To say an entity with an essence (implying existence of an entity with a specific nature) cannot exist is merely evading the fact that entities with natures do exist. Whatever 'essentialism' is in this context is bull crap.

    Quote:


  • To say: "An entity without essence cannot exist at all." This is nihilism.







  • To say an entity that does not have a nature cannot exist is a true statement and is not at all Nihilism. Nagajuna has his head up his ass.


    Edited by RationalEgo (11/07/09 10:08 AM)


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    InvisibleIcelander
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    Re: Nagarjuna: Essence and Existence (Nihilism) [Re: RationalEgo]
        #11402781 - 11/07/09 08:07 AM (7 years, 11 months ago)

    Quote:

    RationalEgo said:
    He is talking ------> :glittershitz:

    It's like any mentally masturbating pseudo philosopher, they talk in circles, try to sound intelligent, use circular logic, rinse and repeat.

    That is all.





    Well my first thought was to agree with rational ego. I think about this a lot but it seems obscure as to what he was trying to say. For me plain and simple as possible really gets the job done. Plain words and all. I mean I'm wanting something that relates to my everyday life and challenges of living that life and not some mental exercises in being "deep",.

    So can the OP tell me what he thinks he is saying and then I can respond.


    --------------------
    "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

    " All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

    With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
    The more knowledge, the more grief.
    Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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    OfflineAhimsa
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    Re: Nagarjuna: Essence and Existence (Nihilism) [Re: Icelander]
        #11402859 - 11/07/09 08:57 AM (7 years, 11 months ago)

    He tried to say that entities have no essences.


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    InvisibleRationalEgo
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    Re: Nagarjuna: Essence and Existence (Nihilism) [Re: Ahimsa]
        #11402864 - 11/07/09 08:59 AM (7 years, 11 months ago)

    Quote:

    Ahimsa said:
    He tried to say that entities have no essences.




    Therefore he is an idiot.


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    InvisibleChronic7
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    Re: Nagarjuna: Essence and Existence (Nihilism) [Re: Ahimsa]
        #11402895 - 11/07/09 09:16 AM (7 years, 11 months ago)

    Nagarjuna speaks to show that reality is beyond the minds grasping

    Both extremes are wrong, the middle path is 'the way'


    --------------------
    ________________________________


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    InvisibleRationalEgo
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    Re: Nagarjuna: Essence and Existence (Nihilism) [Re: Chronic7]
        #11402899 - 11/07/09 09:17 AM (7 years, 11 months ago)

    Quote:

    Chronic777 said:
    Nagarjuna speaks to show that reality is beyond the minds grasping





    This is precisely why he is an epistemologically blind fool. He can certainly speak for himself with regard to that statement. His mind must have a very hard time grapsing reality.


    Edited by RationalEgo (11/07/09 09:39 AM)


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    InvisibleIcelander
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    Re: Nagarjuna: Essence and Existence (Nihilism) [Re: Ahimsa]
        #11403017 - 11/07/09 10:20 AM (7 years, 11 months ago)

    Quote:

    Ahimsa said:
    He tried to say that entities have no essences.




    Well there is no evidence for this whatever essence means. If it means in the end we return to pure energy then what are we supposed to conclude from that? Is he proscribing some relationship to that fact that would make life worthwhile? Or does he want to escape the fact that he has an animal form in a world he didn't create and that will never conform to his personal desires?


    --------------------
    "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

    " All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

    With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
    The more knowledge, the more grief.
    Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


    Edited by Icelander (11/07/09 10:22 AM)


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    OfflineAhimsa
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    Re: Nagarjuna: Essence and Existence (Nihilism) [Re: RationalEgo]
        #11403103 - 11/07/09 10:43 AM (7 years, 11 months ago)

    Quote:

    RationalEgo said:
    Quote:

    Ahimsa said:
    He tried to say that entities have no essences.




    Therefore he is an idiot.




    If an essence were caused or conditioned then it would not be an essence.
    An essence can not be created or arise in any other way than through causes or conditions.
    Therefore there are no essences.


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    InvisibleRationalEgo
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    Re: Nagarjuna: Essence and Existence (Nihilism) [Re: Ahimsa]
        #11403117 - 11/07/09 10:45 AM (7 years, 11 months ago)

    Quote:

    Ahimsa said:
    Quote:

    RationalEgo said:
    Quote:

    Ahimsa said:
    He tried to say that entities have no essences.




    Therefore he is an idiot.




    If an essence were caused or conditioned then it would not be an essence.
    An essence can not be created or arise in any other way than through causes or conditions.

    Therefore there are no essences.




    What is your definition of an 'essence'?

    Define your terms else this discussion is pointless.


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    OfflineAhimsa
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    Re: Nagarjuna: Essence and Existence (Nihilism) [Re: Icelander]
        #11403128 - 11/07/09 10:47 AM (7 years, 11 months ago)

    Quote:

    Icelander said:
    Quote:

    Ahimsa said:
    He tried to say that entities have no essences.




    Well there is no evidence for this whatever essence means. If it means in the end we return to pure energy then what are we supposed to conclude from that? Is he proscribing some relationship to that fact that would make life worthwhile? Or does he want to escape the fact that he has an animal form in a world he didn't create and that will never conform to his personal desires?




    With essence he means an eternal, unchangeable and independently existing entity.

    From Wikipedia: Essence is the attribute or set of attributes that make an object or substance what it fundamentally is, and which it has by necessity, and without which it loses its identity

    So Nagarjuna is saying there is or are no such attributes.


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    InvisibleRationalEgo
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    Re: Nagarjuna: Essence and Existence (Nihilism) [Re: Ahimsa]
        #11403151 - 11/07/09 10:52 AM (7 years, 11 months ago)

    Quote:

    Ahimsa said:
    Quote:

    Icelander said:
    Quote:

    Ahimsa said:
    He tried to say that entities have no essences.




    Well there is no evidence for this whatever essence means. If it means in the end we return to pure energy then what are we supposed to conclude from that? Is he proscribing some relationship to that fact that would make life worthwhile? Or does he want to escape the fact that he has an animal form in a world he didn't create and that will never conform to his personal desires?




    With essence he means an eternal, unchangeable and independently existing entity.






    I agree that the eternal and unchanging attributes do not exist, but entities are independently existing and it is a stupid assertion to say that they are not.

    Quote:



    From Wikipedia: Essence is the attribute or set of attributes that make an object or substance what it fundamentally is, and which it has by necessity, and without which it loses its identity






    This is a different definition and using this definition entities most certainly have an 'essence'. A human being is fundamentally a human being.

    Quote:



    So Nagarjuna is saying there is or are no such attributes.




    Then he is an idiot.


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    InvisibledeCypher
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    Re: Nagarjuna: Essence and Existence (Nihilism) [Re: Ahimsa]
        #11403201 - 11/07/09 11:04 AM (7 years, 11 months ago)

    An entity is defined by its essence; without this there is no entity in the first place.


    --------------------
    We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


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