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OfflineAhimsa
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Nagarjuna
    #11266891 - 10/17/09 07:18 PM (8 years, 11 months ago)

Nagarjuna states in his Mulamadhyamaka-Karika

Nothing whatever arises. Not from itself, not from other, not from both itself and other, and not from neither itself nor another.

I think this means that in reality things/beings don't appear at all. Although conventionally we say 'a house arises from bricks and mortar' or 'the new-born baby has arisen from the womb'.
So in a relative sense things arise, but Nagarjuna talks about the absolute, reality, truth, god, etc...

Not from itself, for if so then it was already there and didn't have to arise.
Not from other, for if so then it is just a continuation of other.
Not from both, for if so then it was already there as itself in the other.
Not without a cause, for if so then something arises from nothing and that is impossible.


So, anyone here a student of Nagarjuna? Feel free to add comments please.


Edited by Ahimsa (10/17/09 07:39 PM)


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OfflineAhimsa
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Re: Nagarjuna [Re: Ahimsa]
    #11269925 - 10/18/09 09:24 AM (8 years, 11 months ago)

Never heard of Nagarjuna?


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InvisibleLakefingers

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Re: Nagarjuna [Re: Ahimsa]
    #11270658 - 10/18/09 12:57 PM (8 years, 11 months ago)

He could just as well be demonstrating the paradoxes of creation, teleogy, etc, when described in language or as seen from normal thought.

Also, he could be using this to deconstruct traditional knowledge about such things; bringing the systems down not with external parts, but bringing them down by turning their own parts in on themselves. Destruction reveals and sheds weight. That is, there are very good reasons why they say Derrida is a modern mode of the scale of Nagarjuna.


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InvisibleChronic7
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Re: Nagarjuna [Re: Ahimsa]
    #11270704 - 10/18/09 01:06 PM (8 years, 11 months ago)

I love Nagarjuna

He negates everything for a very good reason

:peace:


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________________________________


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Nagarjuna [Re: Chronic7]
    #11270874 - 10/18/09 01:40 PM (8 years, 11 months ago)

I believe in Medical Nagarjuna. :yesnod:


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OfflineLion
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Re: Nagarjuna [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #11271018 - 10/18/09 02:13 PM (8 years, 11 months ago)

...for chronic ailments....


--------------------
“Strengthened by contemplation and study,
I will not fear my passions like a coward.
My body I will give to pleasures,
to diversions that I’ve dreamed of,
to the most daring erotic desires,
to the lustful impulses of my blood, without
any fear at all, for whenever I will—
and I will have the will, strengthened
as I’ll be with contemplation and study—
at the crucial moments I’ll recover
my spirit as was before: ascetic.”


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Nagarjuna [Re: Lion]
    #11271031 - 10/18/09 02:17 PM (8 years, 11 months ago)

It makes some posts more bearable. :sun:


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OfflineJasonVira
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Re: Nagarjuna [Re: Ahimsa]
    #11271357 - 10/18/09 03:26 PM (8 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Ahimsa said:
Never heard of Nagarjuna?




I thought the title of the thread was: Marijuana

Never mind  :crazy2:


--------------------
If you have any commentary about my posts that may break the rules. Bring it to my thread in the OTD forum

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=11524605&page=0&vc=1#11524605


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Offlineyelyarb
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Re: Nagarjuna [Re: Ahimsa]
    #11272418 - 10/18/09 06:57 PM (8 years, 11 months ago)

This is the trouble with our minds: we always want to see things as this or that. What is the difference between rising and falling? Being and non-being?

Much easier to notice that things are real and not real together. But neither is important. The unity and duality will continue, however deeply we come to know it.



Only
That Illumined
One

Who keeps
Seducing the formless into form

Had the charm to win my
Heart.

Only a Perfect One

Who is always
Laughing at the word 
Two

Can make you know

Of

Love.

- Hafiz


--------------------
:bliss:

It's the same thing.


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Invisible_myconaut_
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Re: Nagarjuna [Re: yelyarb]
    #11273760 - 10/18/09 10:58 PM (8 years, 11 months ago)

Nagarjuna is explaining the concept of emptiness, which can best be described as the infinite possibility inherent in the universe. If everything arises out of nothing, what does that mean about the nature of everything?


--------------------
:dj:
:banana::superbanana::redbanana::bananamusic::celery::rastana::hitlerdance:
          :ass::paradisiscoolwhat:


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InvisibleMiddlemanM

Registered: 07/12/99
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Re: Nagarjuna [Re: yelyarb]
    #11274924 - 10/19/09 01:40 AM (8 years, 11 months ago)

"No, Donny, these men are nihilists, there's nothing to be afraid of."


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OfflineNoteworthy
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Re: Nagarjuna [Re: Middleman]
    #11275759 - 10/19/09 08:14 AM (8 years, 11 months ago)

things dont arise out of nothing... oh god who is this nagarjuana guy...

a house does not 'arise' from bricks and mortar. According to actions of men (which we still havnt worked out), energy flows in a certain way through their bodies and through their tools to result in exchanges of kenetic and chemical energy. The house was always in the universe, but it used to be spread out amongst all of the resources in shops and warehouses and in the ground. Then, those resources were re-arranged into a house.

All perceptions are based on configurations of the universe. Nothing 'arises' except perceptions. The universe itself just changes in the relative orientations of its parts. These parts are energy, essentially. Energy flowing all around.


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OfflineColonel Graff
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Re: Nagarjuna [Re: Noteworthy]
    #11275962 - 10/19/09 09:51 AM (8 years, 11 months ago)

For those who do not know:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nagarjuna#Writings

Some of his works:
http://buddhistlinks.org/NagarjunaWorks.htm

He is highly regarded by the Dalai Lama as an important buddhist philosopher.


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OfflineNoteworthy
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Re: Nagarjuna [Re: Colonel Graff]
    #11276031 - 10/19/09 10:17 AM (8 years, 11 months ago)

I essentially agree with him.. I realise now that it is you that I disagree with. When you say that things don't appear at all. Do you believe in magic? Surely you dont think the baby just appears from the womb.. it grows inside the womb from nutrients that the mother eats?
In the 'absolute' reality, there is no 'appearing'. but that is because 'appear' implies a relation to perception. When things appear, they appear into the perception of something.

Arising is a bit more general, if something arises it generally means a phenomenon is occuring, and this can be supported by scientific means as well as perception.

I think it is pretty profound when you consider a child as a continuation of its parents. Is that an example that Nagajuna gives?


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OfflineAhimsa
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Re: Nagarjuna [Re: Middleman]
    #11276149 - 10/19/09 11:05 AM (8 years, 11 months ago)

Nagarjuna avoids both nihilism and essentialism. How?

Well, all things are compounded and therefore without a self-existing essence. Thus avoiding essentialism.
Now, all things are compounded and therefore not un-existent at all. Thus avoiding nihilism.

See!


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Invisible_myconaut_
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Re: Nagarjuna [Re: Noteworthy]
    #11276426 - 10/19/09 12:31 PM (8 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Noteworthy said:
I essentially agree with him.. I realise now that it is you that I disagree with. When you say that things don't appear at all. Do you believe in magic? Surely you dont think the baby just appears from the womb.. it grows inside the womb from nutrients that the mother eats?
In the 'absolute' reality, there is no 'appearing'. but that is because 'appear' implies a relation to perception. When things appear, they appear into the perception of something.

Arising is a bit more general, if something arises it generally means a phenomenon is occuring, and this can be supported by scientific means as well as perception.

I think it is pretty profound when you consider a child as a continuation of its parents. Is that an example that Nagajuna gives?




My explaination was a very loose explaination of concepts that can't be understood through words. Where do the nutrients that the mother eats come from? Where do the atoms that form those nutrients come from? These questions all boil down to the nature of life. How do things come to be?
There is no underlying cause for the existence of things, their absolute nature is empty.


--------------------
:dj:
:banana::superbanana::redbanana::bananamusic::celery::rastana::hitlerdance:
          :ass::paradisiscoolwhat:


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OfflineAhimsa
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Re: Nagarjuna [Re: Noteworthy]
    #11276475 - 10/19/09 12:42 PM (8 years, 11 months ago)

Perhaps 'perceptions' too are spread all about, only to be assembled in the mind given the right conditions?


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Invisible_myconaut_
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Re: Nagarjuna [Re: Ahimsa]
    #11276527 - 10/19/09 12:54 PM (8 years, 11 months ago)

perceptions are a product of mind and the mind is no less empty than the universe


--------------------
:dj:
:banana::superbanana::redbanana::bananamusic::celery::rastana::hitlerdance:
          :ass::paradisiscoolwhat:


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InvisibleLakefingers

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Re: Nagarjuna [Re: _myconaut_]
    #11276550 - 10/19/09 01:00 PM (8 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Noteworthy said:
I essentially agree with him.. I realise now that it is you that I disagree with. When you say that things don't appear at all. Do you believe in magic? Surely you dont think the baby just appears from the womb.. it grows inside the womb from nutrients that the mother eats?
In the 'absolute' reality, there is no 'appearing'. but that is because 'appear' implies a relation to perception. When things appear, they appear into the perception of something.

Arising is a bit more general, if something arises it generally means a phenomenon is occuring, and this can be supported by scientific means as well as perception.

I think it is pretty profound when you consider a child as a continuation of its parents. Is that an example that Nagajuna gives?




Yes, as I said above, one reasonable interpretation is that he is deconstructing our concepts by demonstrating the logical and phenomenological paradoxes our concepts run into when they must describe things happening (i.e. phenomena).

Quote:

_myconaut_ said:
Quote:

Noteworthy said:
I essentially agree with him.. I realise now that it is you that I disagree with. When you say that things don't appear at all. Do you believe in magic? Surely you dont think the baby just appears from the womb.. it grows inside the womb from nutrients that the mother eats?
In the 'absolute' reality, there is no 'appearing'. but that is because 'appear' implies a relation to perception. When things appear, they appear into the perception of something.

Arising is a bit more general, if something arises it generally means a phenomenon is occuring, and this can be supported by scientific means as well as perception.

I think it is pretty profound when you consider a child as a continuation of its parents. Is that an example that Nagajuna gives?




My explanation was a very loose explaination of concepts that can't be understood through words. Where do the nutrients that the mother eats come from? Where do the atoms that form those nutrients come from? These questions all boil down to the nature of life. How do things come to be?
There is no underlying cause for the existence of things, their absolute nature is empty.




That does not mean they come out of nothing. They simply seem to. As it says in the Bible the way of an eagle in the sky, the way of a snake on a rock, the way of a ship on the high seas, and the way of a man with a woman. These things seem inexplicable, but that does not mean that they are inexplicable. Likewise, because things exist but seem to come out of nowhere (or even never seem to change into something else, etc) does not mean that they come from nothing. Once again, we're clarifying the difference material nothingness and conceptual/causal/descriptive nothingness.


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Offlineyelyarb
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Re: Nagarjuna [Re: Middleman]
    #11276593 - 10/19/09 01:12 PM (8 years, 11 months ago)

What's a nihilist?


--------------------
:bliss:

It's the same thing.


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