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"Be Present" they say "But don't think!" * 1
    #11355317 -

In a recent debate with a mystic I have struck upon another important fallacy that sets up another impossible standard. After pointing out the contradictions inherent in a mystics 'floating abstractions' and means of acquiring knowledge, the last refuge that they think that have in regard to epistemology is the notion that 'being present' allows on to be more aware of the mind and the world and as such have better quality of life as a result.

It took me a while afterwards to think the mystics argument and what it implies is fallacious in the context of a mystic's philosophy.

Be Present they say, but don't think, blanking out the fact that it requires one to be actively thinking about the world and oneself, forming conceptual knowledge based upon observations in order for one to understand the present moment, to know oneself and what is taking place. What the mystic is trying to do is sneak some semi-rational sounding cliché whilst setting up an impossible method for one to try and attempt to achieve it. The argument assumes that awareness and knowledge is automatic and comes in fits of revelation from some 'innate' awareness that human beings somehow possess that is superior to reason and reality. It is a perfect way to subjugate a person in a never ending pursuit of an unattainable ideal.

While a person thinks it is rational that 'being present' is a possibility and a good thing in life, using the method of 'just being' and 'not thinking' to attempt to achieve it is a contradiction.

Stay rational, think and be present.

"Live long and prosper" - Spock

Edited by RationalEgo (10/31/09 12:28 AM)

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Re: "Be Present" they say "But don't think!" [Re: RationalEgo] * 1
    #11355365 -

I think what he's trying to get at(if he's really all that mystical) is to move out of what Alan Watts called the "spotlight consciousness" and into the "floodlight consciousness."  In other words, stop identifying with the fickle ordinary consciousness, and cultivate a more ambient awareness which is more truly present because it is not focused on this or that, but is aware of all that is arising.  This is one of the benefits of long-term meditation, and exploring this awareness is in fact conducive to knowing the nature one's being more fully.  It is part of what William James called "radical empiricism."  Basically, if all you ever identify with is your rational mind, then you have shut out and repressed a great deal of the rest of yourself, and thus can never truly come to know who you really are.


--------------------

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Re: "Be Present" they say "But don't think!" [Re: RationalEgo]
    #11355374 -



this is the result of "being present" with no critical thinking

spiritual lobotomy

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Re: "Be Present" they say "But don't think!" [Re: Life Upon Death]
    #11355445 -

I did not watch the video, but what you said is pretty much it. Its a way to trick a person into performing a spiritual lobotomy on themselves.

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Re: "Be Present" they say "But don't think!" [Re: Silversoul]
    #11355486 -

Silversoul said:
I think what he's trying to get at(if he's really all that mystical) is to move out of what Alan Watts called the "spotlight consciousness" and into the "floodlight consciousness."



How many different 'kinds' of conciousness do you think human beings have?
Quote:
In other words, stop identifying with the fickle ordinary consciousness, and cultivate a more ambient awareness which is more truly present because it is not focused on this or that, but is aware of all that is arising.



What is so 'fickle' about human conciousness (other than the fact that one can abdicate its use by not thinking) and what pray tell is this floating abstraction of an 'ambient' awareness that you refer to? Are you serious about this, or are you just typing this nonsense to provide a good example of evidence supporting my initial post?

Quote:
This is one of the benefits of long-term meditation, and exploring this awareness is in fact conducive to knowing the nature one's being more fully.  It is part of what William James called "radical empiricism."  Basically, if all you ever identify with is your rational mind, then you have shut out and repressed a great deal of the rest of yourself, and thus can never truly come to know who you really are.


There are no benefits to long term vegetation in a frozen floating abstraction of a mystics creation. Being rational does not imply a lack of introspection or a repression of any other 'minds' you think a human being possesses. What exactly do you see as beneficial in having an 'irrational' mind?

Edited by RationalEgo (10/31/09 12:53 AM)

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Re: "Be Present" they say "But don't think!" [Re: RationalEgo]
    #11355523 -

RationalEgo said:
Silversoul said:
I think what he's trying to get at(if he's really all that mystical) is to move out of what Alan Watts called the "spotlight consciousness" and into the "floodlight consciousness."



How many different 'kinds' of conciousness do you think human beings have?


Quite a lot.  There's a lot going on in our mind that is not in focused awareness.  Psychologists often call this the "subconscious" or "unconscious," but for the most part the reason it isn't "conscious" is that we're always focused on one thing or another outside ourselves.

Quote:
Quote:
In other words, stop identifying with the fickle ordinary consciousness, and cultivate a more ambient awareness which is more truly present because it is not focused on this or that, but is aware of all that is arising.



What is so 'fickle' about human conciousness and what pray tell is this floating abstraction of an 'ambient' awareness that you refer to? Are you serious about this, or are you just typing this nonsense to provide a good example of evidence supporting my initial post?


I'm very much serious.  Our ordinary consciousness is fickle because it is focused on one thing at a time, and that focus constantly drifts from one object to another.  The "ambient" awareness I refer to is not focused on any one thing, but is simply present and aware of what is arising.

Quote:
Quote:
This is one of the benefits of long-term meditation, and exploring this awareness is in fact conducive to knowing the nature one's being more fully.  It is part of what William James called "radical empiricism."  Basically, if all you ever identify with is your rational mind, then you have shut out and repressed a great deal of the rest of yourself, and thus can never truly come to know who you really are.


There are no benefits to long term vegetation in a frozen floating abstraction of a mystics creation. Being rational does not imply a lack of introspection or a repression of any other 'minds' you think a human being possesses. What exactly do you see as beneficial in having an 'irrational' mind?


No one is advocating having an irrational mind.  You already have a part of your mind that is not rational, but you repress that aspect of you in the same way a Catholic might repress their sexual drives.  Furthermore, I find it very ironic that you talk about "floating abstractions" when in fact the practice of mindfulness through meditation is the only way to get beyond abstractions to pure experience.  Since you so dismissively(and, I dare say, irrationally) bash this form of knowing, everything you know is a floating abstraction.

As for your unfounded assertion that there are no benefits to meditation, the medical community disagrees with you.


--------------------

Edited by Silversoul (10/31/09 01:03 AM)

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Re: "Be Present" they say "But don't think!" [Re: RationalEgo]
    #11355575 -

Maybe it is just about staying 'open minded' and not limit ourself to our fixed ideas.
So 'be present'='open minded' and 'don't think'='no fixed ideas'.
That's a way to explain it i feel.

If we 'think' (fixed ideas) all the time then we prevent ourself from being 'open minded' because we limit the reality we can see to our preset ideas and concepts.

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Re: "Be Present" they say "But don't think!" [Re: Silversoul]
    #11355593 -

I agree that there is a subconscious and to understand it requires introspection.  That is not what is being debated. The subconscious is a 'subset' of conciousness and is the storehouse where knowledge is integrated.

You imply that conciousness can exist without something to perceive, but that is a contradiction in terms.

"A consciousness conscious of nothing but itself is a contradiction in terms: before it could identify itself as consciousness, it had to be conscious of something. If that which you claim to perceive does not exist, what you possess is not consciousness." - AR

An active mind is not 'drifting' from one thing to the next. It has purpose and intent in its method of 'thinking', that is to identify and pursue objective values. A mind that does not think is one that 'drifts from one thing to the next' with no purpose or reason in its doing so.

You are also suggesting (if I am understanding your argument correctly) that emotions are by nature irrational and that this is the part of the mind that is 'repressed' by rational thought and inquiry. Allow me to quash that assumption. Emotions have causes and one can discover what they are and why they arise. In fact it is essential to do so.

"An emotion as such tells you nothing about reality, beyond the fact that something makes you feel something. Without a ruthlessly honest commitment to introspection—to the conceptual identification of your inner states—you will not discover what you feel, what arouses the feeling, and whether your feeling is an appropriate response to the facts of reality, or a mistaken response, or a vicious illusion produced by years of self-deception . . . .

In the field of introspection, the two guiding questions are: “What do I feel?” and “Why do I feel it?”" -AR

This idea of 'pure experience' is another contradiction that implies that human beings have an "uncaused", undefineable aspect that can only be reached by a method that negates thinking and reasoning. That is a notion that it is divorced from any identifiable concretes or abstractions and worse it is the method (of no method) by which shyster mystics (who appeal to the authority of their own experience of course) attempt to usurp the reasoning faculty of their victims minds. Just like all mystics they evade the fact that their so called method attempts to abdicate conciousness and negate the reality of cause and effect.

As for your 'benefits of meditation' link. There is a benefit to relaxation and 'resting' ones mind. There is not however a benefit in the vegetation  of the mystics method, and that is precisely what I identified as being of not benefit in my previous post.

Edited by RationalEgo (10/31/09 04:46 AM)

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Re: "Be Present" they say "But don't think!" [Re: Ahimsa]
    #11355803 -

Ahimsa said:
Maybe it is just about staying 'open minded' and not limit ourself to our fixed ideas.
So 'be present'='open minded' and 'don't think'='no fixed ideas'.
That's a way to explain it i feel.

If we 'think' (fixed ideas) all the time then we prevent ourself from being 'open minded' because we limit the reality we can see to our preset ideas and concepts.



Unfortunately this is not what the mystics here are getting at with their unskillful thinking.  You are talking about a healthy/skillful personal psychology.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: "Be Present" they say "But don't think!" [Re: Icelander]
    #11355842 -

Remember, if you open your mind too much, your brain will fall out....:wink:


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Re: "Be Present" they say "But don't think!" [Re: RationalEgo]
    #11355910 -

That is fucking highlarious.:rofl2:

OC, don't miss this one!


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: "Be Present" they say "But don't think!" [Re: RationalEgo]
    #11355925 -

Its not about 'not thinking'
Its about seeing & understanding the nature of thinking

Being present does not "requires one to be actively thinking about the world and oneself, forming conceptual knowledge based upon observations in order for one to understand the present moment"
It is simply Being present
The feeling 'I' is the feeling of presence, theres nothing you can 'do' to be present
Thats the real fallacy of saying 'be present', its impossible to not be present!
Seeing that is to fully be present...

It is perfectly rational to question thoughts, question reality, to want to understand awareness
It is irrational to go around using awareness & thoughts but only questioning everything else, instead of questioning oneself

Real rationality is to simply observe the universe functioning
To just observe without intent & be Aware of whats going on
Thats truly scientific, observation

:peace:


--------------------

Edited by Chronic7 (10/31/09 05:27 AM)

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Re: "Be Present" they say "But don't think!" [Re: Chronic7]
    #11355937 -


Real rationality is to simply observe the universe functioning
Not to 'think' about it
To just observe without intent & watch whats happening
Thats truly scientific, observation



And truly not possible.:crazy2:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: "Be Present" they say "But don't think!" [Re: Icelander]
    #11355945 -

Its impossible to observe?

:peace:


--------------------

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Re: "Be Present" they say "But don't think!" [Re: Chronic7]
    #11355953 -

Without thinking.:monkeydance:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: "Be Present" they say "But don't think!" [Re: Icelander]
    #11355965 -

Its impossible to observe without thinking?

I know that it is possible & it takes no effort, just observing

:peace:


--------------------

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Re: "Be Present" they say "But don't think!" [Re: Chronic7]
    #11355972 -

Chronic777 said:
Its not about 'not thinking'
Its about seeing & understanding the nature of thinking

Being present does not "requires one to be actively thinking about the world and oneself, forming conceptual knowledge based upon observations in order for one to understand the present moment"
It is simply Being present
The feeling 'I' is the feeling of presence, theres nothing you can 'do' to be present
Thats the real fallacy of saying 'be present', its impossible to not be present!
Seeing that is to fully be present...

It is perfectly rational to question thoughts, question reality, to want to understand awareness
It is irrational to go around using awareness & thoughts but only questioning everything else, instead of questioning oneself

Real rationality is to simply observe the universe functioning
To just observe without intent & be Aware of whats going on
Thats truly scientific, observation

:peace:


Case in point ^^^^^^

"What the mystic is trying to do is sneak some semi-rational sounding cliché whilst setting up an impossible method for one to try and attempt to achieve it. The argument assumes that awareness and knowledge is automatic and comes in fits of revelation from some 'innate' awareness that human beings somehow possess that is superior to reason and reality. It is a perfect way to subjugate a person in a never ending pursuit of an unattainable ideal. "

"This idea of 'pure experience' is another contradiction that implies that human beings have an "uncaused", undefineable aspect that can only be reached by a method that negates thinking and reasoning. That is a notion that it is divorced from any identifiable concretes or abstractions and worse it is the method (of no method) by which shyster mystics (who appeal to the authority of their own experience of course) attempt to usurp the reasoning faculty of their victims minds. Just like all mystics they evade the fact that their so called method attempts to abdicate conciousness and negate the reality of cause and effect."

That is all that needs to be said about your post Chronic (Nihilist).

I do have a follow up question though.

How does one 'observe, without the 'intent to observe'? Contradiction?

Edited by RationalEgo (10/31/09 05:58 AM)

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Re: "Be Present" they say "But don't think!" [Re: RationalEgo]
    #11355982 -

RationalEgo said:
How does one 'observe, without the 'intent to observe'? Contradiction?????


By realizing that one is already in a state of observing, so no intent is necessary
If intent is there it gets thinned out into pure observation
Like you say, it is the method of 'no method'
Its realizing that which has no cause
Infinity has no 'starting point'

:peace:


--------------------

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Re: "Be Present" they say "But don't think!" [Re: Chronic7]
    #11355991 -

Chronic777 said:
RationalEgo said:
How does one 'observe, without the 'intent to observe'? Contradiction?????


By realizing that one is already in a state of observing, so no intent is necessary
If intent is there it gets thinned out into pure observation
Like you say, it is the method of 'no method'
Its realizing that which has no cause
Infinity has no 'starting point'

:peace:


So, you are suggesting to be a Zombie that exists purely on the basis of perception, renouncing ones mode of cognition in favor of a mystical 'infinity' of which no knowledge can be gained.

"This idea of 'pure experience' is another contradiction that implies that human beings have an "uncaused", undefineable aspect that can only be reached by a method that negates thinking and reasoning. That is a notion that it is divorced from any identifiable concretes or abstractions and worse it is the method (of no method) by which shyster mystics (who appeal to the authority of their own experience of course) attempt to usurp the reasoning faculty of their victims minds. Just like all mystics they evade the fact that their so called method attempts to abdicate conciousness and negate the reality of cause and effect."

:facepalm:

No thanks, I'll pass.

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Re: "Be Present" they say "But don't think!" [Re: Chronic7]
    #11356002 -

Chronic777 said:
RationalEgo said:
How does one 'observe, without the 'intent to observe'? Contradiction?????


By realizing that one is already in a state of observing, so no intent is necessary
If intent is there it gets thinned out into pure observation
Like you say, it is the method of 'no method'
Its realizing that which has no cause
Infinity has no 'starting point'

:peace:


I know when I am observing the wonders of our world I have my worldview as a reason for whats happening in the back of my mind

to just completely shut myself off and view whats happening, whos to say what I'm seeing is reality at all?

without being able to test my observations with TRUE science how do I know whether I was simply in a dreamlike state apposed to seeing things for what they really are?

I know myself I have often contemplated things which seemed plausible and true while observing later to realize from research that I was at least partially off

without that honest research I would end up going further and further into falsehood

especially without rational analysis of the things I observed

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