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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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A statement that cannot be disproven
    #11052806 -

For someone to claim that they are a liar, then it must be true. It is a self-proving statement.

Anyone have any similar concepts?

Edited by Mushouse (09/13/09 05:58 PM)

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Re: A truth that cannot be disproven [Re: Mushouse]
    #11052846 -

What is a "liar"?
Is there any person who never lied in their lives? I don't think so. Does this mean that all people are liars? A generalization won't bring any real insight on one's character, even if it comes from the self.


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:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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Re: A truth that cannot be disproven [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #11052927 -

Well let's assume that a person has never told even a single lie. For them to say "I am a liar" will be their first lie, and the lie that confirms that they are, in fact, a liar. If someone is a long-time liar, they are telling the truth to say that that are a liar.

Not talking about the nature of humanity, or anything. I'm just looking for self-confirming/defeating concept loops for my amusement.


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Apple Juice LC - Mutant Mushrooms - Store Mushrooms Forever

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Re: A truth that cannot be disproven [Re: Mushouse]
    #11053138 -

Mushouse said:
For someone to claim that they are a liar, then it must be true. It is a self-proving statement.

Anyone have any similar concepts?


If a truth could be proven false then it wouldn't be a truth would it? You're just talking about definitions here.


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Re: A truth that cannot be disproven [Re: learningtofly]
    #11053174 -

if they never had told a lie prior to the statement then it'd be paradoxical

sure, by saying they are a liar when they aren't constitutes a lie... but then this validates that they are a liar and hence the statement was true (that they were a liar), and not a lie.


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Re: A truth that cannot be disproven [Re: deff]
    #11053188 -

If someone is a liar it doesn't imply that everything that comes out of their mouth is a lie.

For example, if a liar says "I am a liar" it is true. Why is that hard to grasp or am I missing something?


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Re: A truth that cannot be disproven [Re: learningtofly]
    #11053195 -

learningtofly said:
If a truth could be proven false then it wouldn't be a truth would it? You're just talking about definitions here.


You're right. (thread top changed)


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Apple Juice LC - Mutant Mushrooms - Store Mushrooms Forever

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Re: A truth that cannot be disproven [Re: learningtofly]
    #11053219 -

learningtofly said:
If someone is a liar it doesn't imply that everything that comes out of their mouth is a lie.

For example, if a liar says "I am a liar" it is true. Why is that hard to grasp or am I missing something?


If they are already a lair, they the statement is proven.
If they were not previously a liar, then they are now, and the statement is proven.


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Apple Juice LC - Mutant Mushrooms - Store Mushrooms Forever

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Re: A truth that cannot be disproven [Re: learningtofly]
    #11056978 -

In the case of this statement, it is an immediate contradiction and is thus immediately disproven.


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Re: A truth that cannot be disproven [Re: Noteworthy]
    #11058020 -

Noteworthy said:
In the case of this statement, it is an immediate contradiction and is thus immediately disproven.


Self-contradicting? Self-confirming? Point of view.

If someone is a habitual liar, and they say that they are, they are telling the truth, but the truth is that they lie.

So when a person who has never lied says that they do, is that a lie in itself, or is it a true statement because the statement itself is a lie?

I think that the side of a non-lying person stating that they are a liar is more interesting. Are they lying to say that they are a liar?


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Apple Juice LC - Mutant Mushrooms - Store Mushrooms Forever

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Re: A truth that cannot be disproven [Re: Mushouse]
    #11061479 -

Ok, the original phrase is "I am lying".

If this is true, then it is false. If it is false (a lie) then it is true.

that is not to say any false statement is a lie - someone might just be mistaken. But one cannot really be mistaken as to whether they are lying when they are talking about the very fact so succinctly.

As for the phrase "I am a liar" it is different because you might say that lying once does not make you a 'liar'. Also, a liar doesn't have to lie all the time.


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Re: A truth that cannot be disproven [Re: Noteworthy]
    #11062324 -

Epimenides paradox

and

Liar paradox


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Re: A truth that cannot be disproven [Re: Mufungo]
    #11062887 -

OP has not defined what a liar is.  If a liar is one who tells untruths, and there is no way to speak of truth, then there are no liars.

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Re: A truth that cannot be disproven [Re: xFrockx]
    #11065090 -

xFrockx said:
If a liar is one who tells untruths, and there is no way to speak of truth, then there are no liars.


Please elaborate on this. I'm having trouble grasping what you're saying here.


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Apple Juice LC - Mutant Mushrooms - Store Mushrooms Forever

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Re: A truth that cannot be disproven [Re: xFrockx]
    #11065435 -

xFrockx said:
OP has not defined what a liar is.  If a liar is one who tells untruths, and there is no way to speak of truth, then there are no liars.


seriously, elaborate.

I understand the first part, "A liar is someone who tells untruths"

But where do you get "There is no way to speak of truth." Do you mean that people cannot know an ultimate truth or something? Lying involves intent to deceive, if you believe it and you're wrong it's not considered a lie. And even so, you can still speak truths, "2+2=4" is always true.

and your last part "then there are no liars" would be super false, it would mean that everyone is a liar.


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Re: A statement that cannot be disproven [Re: Mushouse]
    #11065442 -

I'm sorry to see your thread get ripped apart by a bunch of people with nothing to say... :rolleyes:
(with the, um, noteworthy exceptions of Noteworthy and Mufungo)

I though this was going to be a discussion about paradoxes!

There are a lot of self-referential paradoxes, as they are called. Saying something like "I know that I know nothing" for example, is another (that was first written down by Socrates, I think). The main idea here is that you refer to something by stating its opposite. I know that I know nothing, if true, would preclude my knowing anything in the first place - including nothing.

You can come up with any number of paradoxes, though some of them can get pretty wild. There is always that common temporal paradox, for example, in which a person travels back in time to kill his grandfather. If he does this, then he will obviously never be born and cannot travel back in time in the first place!


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Re: A statement that cannot be disproven [Re: trendal]
    #11065688 -

"I'm sorry to see your thread get ripped apart by a bunch of people with nothing to say.."

You mean like yourself?

To elaborate what I said earlier, all I meant to say was that, in the confines of language, we have a thing called truth.  There is a general consensus that we can speak of truth, but so far its not been completely justified by anyone.  If it turns out that our common sense notion of speaking truth is no more than an appearance, and our words we consider true are, strictly speaking, not true, then no one can tell the truth.

I'm not asserting that truth doesn't exist, or that we can never say it, just that it's up in the air.  Since its up in the air, then we can't go calling people liars, (yet?).

""2+2=4" is always true."

Not everyone would agree with that, and while those who disagree may be wrong, we don't know that.  One might disagree with you on the grounds that such a statement is equivocation, grounded in semantics and not truth.  We have VERY founded beliefs on the matter, but that isn't enough to justify anything logically.  (There's even a question as to whether we can justify anything logically.)  You surely have your personal opinion on the matter, but neither of us would call our opinions truth, so until we have further rational debate we cannot determine what course the argument will take.

"your last part "then there are no liars" would be super false, it would mean that everyone is a liar."

Careful how you're reading me.  Part of my point is that if there is no true/false duality, then liars simply do not exist.  It would make no more sense to say that all are liars then to say all are truth tellers.

Edited by xFrockx (09/15/09 06:59 PM)

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Re: A statement that cannot be disproven [Re: xFrockx]
    #11065758 -

Liar and Lie to me convey something more specific than just falsity. It conveys intention; intentional deceit. So regardless of whether "the truth" is up in the air or not, a liar knows when they are telling a falsity with the intention of being deceitful (to some degree; which includes 'white lies'). Could a liar tell a lie which turns out to be the truth? Potentially, but that doesn't change that the liar thought they were telling an untruth with the intention of being deceitful... which makes them a liar regardless of the content of said lie. But as far as making an identity statement of "liar", I can only see it holding for the moments in which they are carrying out the deceit.


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Re: A statement that cannot be disproven [Re: Mufungo]
    #11065802 -

Quote:
Liar and Lie to me convey something more specific than just falsity. It conveys intention; intentional deceit.


I agree.  Merely saying something that isnt true does not make one a liar.

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Re: A statement that cannot be disproven [Re: trendal]
    #11066043 -

trendal said:
There are a lot of self-referential paradoxes, as they are called. Saying something like "I know that I know nothing" for example, is another (that was first written down by Socrates, I think). The main idea here is that you refer to something by stating its opposite. I know that I know nothing, if true, would preclude my knowing anything in the first place - including nothing.

You can come up with any number of paradoxes, though some of them can get pretty wild. There is always that common temporal paradox, for example, in which a person travels back in time to kill his grandfather. If he does this, then he will obviously never be born and cannot travel back in time in the first place!


Ah, yes. I was aware of both of those, and I am particularly fond of both of them. I'm interested in seeing more like those.


--------------------
Apple Juice LC - Mutant Mushrooms - Store Mushrooms Forever

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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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