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Re: Psychology as a whole- Do you buy it? [Re: Diaboleros]
    #10271819 -

qubit nailed it.  It can be done scientifically and logically but often isn't.



The dichotomy is apparent when reviewing these responses.  Kudos to mushroomtrip to asking for a definition, as people are just arguing from their own preconcpetions of what psychology is.


The actual research can be done, whether clinically or from a basic science perspective, and be applied logically, but often its just a bunch of bullshit mysticism like qubit said.


The complaints in this thread seem to focus on the later clinical nonsense for which the support is lacking.  That isn't what psychology is, that's just a stupid portion of it.


All I object to is the silly beliefs they have little evidence for.  The legal use of psychology is often ridiculous too, not asking for any proof just n opinion.

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Re: Psychology as a whole- Do you buy it? [Re: johnm214]
    #10272064 -

jivJaN said:
Quote:
Again, I'd rather it have an objective, scientific base, than not.



It just doesnt exist...


How can you be sure of the nonexistence of an objective fundamental base?  We can't ever know for sure if it exists or does not exist; there is no metaphysical proof it either way.  We might as well run on the assumption that it does exist and then attempt to model it using the scientific method to investigate psychology... furthering the knowledge of the human race is always a good ideal IMO.


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Re: Psychology as a whole- Do you buy it? [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #10272760 -

YawningAnus said:
also, here is a thought...

science is generally unable to even keep such huge amounts of chaotic variables in mind: like society.
society evolves (or devolves) and even if these theories were factual they would never be a law.. because a law denotes that it is true forever (like the law of gravity).
is it possible that psychology is doomed to constantly keep saying "you know this old stuff is bullshit and wrong, this new stuff works!" since society will constantly change and as society changes, so will human interaction, perception, and conditioning?
is that something you want to be a part of? a group of people trying to tackle some extremely dynamic, amorphous abstract variable with you caught in the middle as a lab rat?


:thumbup:

Yes, it is possible that psychology will involve a lot of "oop, society changed, and we have to change in order to continue studying" and yes, I love being a part of that. Every field does that to an extent -- a new technology is created which changes the way society can look at phenomena. This results in changes on both sides, in the sciences, and in the society. In psychologies case, it's more of a follow suit than a lead direction, but that's fine by me, I like the observation.

It's useful to see where society is, currently, right now. And psychology allows a way to get at that much more objectively than straight speculation. If that view changes, and psychology can adapt, why shouldn't it? It's still useful to see where the society then ends up. It's a measuring stick that can be as fluid as society, a unique quality IMO. However, it currently is NOT as fluid as society, and there is a time lag. Society shifts, and psychology is slow to take up. I personally blame the theories of old for this, because  they were far less scientific and much more based on the influence they contained within the system. That influence is hard to wipe out overnight. But, as the newer more scientific methods take deeper root (it's happening pretty quickly now), the pace of change should be much more even.

Maybe you don't like the idea of knowing what's going on, but I do. It's like allowing ourselves, for the first time, to test our philosophies of mankind. That excites the living hell out of the philosopher in me.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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Re: Psychology as a whole- Do you buy it? [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #10273831 -

Quote:
But every science is being interpreted by the same kind of subjective mind, what difference are you trying to make here?


The difference is crucial.
If you and I subjectively decide that F=m*a we can put it to the test - and it will always work.


Quote:
So what you're saying is that ALL science is flawed, because of the same reasons?


No.. thats not what im saying at all.
If we do the above mentioned experiment we are causing no potential harm with our possible ignorance on the issue.
We could accelerate a marble and unless it bounces off the wall and hits someone in the eye.. were good :smile:
Quote:
The case with psychology is that all opinions and theories are based on OBSERVATION


Exactly.
That is one of the reasons why it is flawed.
You and I will never see the same green.
Quote:
Also, what therapist is saying "I'm right, you're wrong, I'm a psychiatrist you're mentally unstable". If you don't get your facts straight, then this discussion is doomed.


This discussion could only be doomed by your misinterpretations of my statements.
Which i am trying to fix now with a thought that maybe my expression wasnt sufficient , or lacks coherency, which is often the case.

I am right you are wrong -  is simply  to point out how society works in general with the given authorities we have.
If you are going against it.. you will inevitably be WRONG  in there eyes , along with the people that end up persuaded into it through the only source of information they use , which is of course the media , the educational system .. etc.. - The norm.
Once this kind of mentality is established , my opinion is that you are no longer treated to benefit yourself, rather to benefit the whole which is directed to function under the above stated norm , that doesnt actually exist outside of our persuasion into it.


Quote:
Also, WTF does this have to do with a judge sending someone to prison because the psychiatrist said something about them being mentally unstable?


In a court of law - psychiatric diagnosis can and will be used as evidence.

Feel free to ask , whatever you feel i might have wrongly presented , and feel free to confront it..

For the record - Statements like the following are more likely to doom a discussion than anything else i might have stated in this thread.

I think you're just making shit up for dramatic effect.

If you don't get your facts straight, then this discussion is doomed.

If you will excuse my overactive sensitivity to indirect hostility..

Through my eyes.. this is the exact same attitude which is used to keep things the way they are.
Keep in mind that i am only using your statements as an immediate example , not to address you as a poster personally.

* Twisting my words - so to speak - with implications that my general viewpoint is almost paranoid , by coming to a stereotypical conclusion and posting the following question which serves to discredit myself in the eyes of other observers by over-generalizing and pointing out my possible lack of trust in the human experience overall.

Is human experience flawed because it's subjective?

which is followed by :



* Leading on - with question that cannot have a "rational" answer , and usually require a YES or NO ,  in which situation both replies discredit my statements.

* Accusations implying the lack of facts - while the discussion is mainly discussing the lack of factual evidence of the given science.

* Last but not least - humoristically cloaked provoking and finger pointing to my personal mental state with  ---- :wow: ---


... now..
On the web.. it doesnt really serve its purpose quite fully.
Hand gestures would be a worthy additive to an almost manipulative fashion of discussion which you can find in its purest form in the media.
Take a look at Sean Hanitty f.e.


Now.. to get to my point.
I believe.. such methods are frequently used within this field of science - in its practice.. and in its defense.

In general - after the birth of psychoanalysis ... came the birth of the consumer society.
The reason why freuds work was applicable is because it dealt with the masses.
It dealt with the reactions and actions of humans in large numbers.
Even though.. these theories are also fundamentally flawed , as YawningAnus says , by creating a macro model of human behavior - they serve the purpose.
Why?
.. because if your making money.. you dont need everybody.. just most of em.
If you are still wondering what this norm is that i speak of.. it is exactly this one.
The psychoanalytically created norm, which most humans blindly follow for whatever reason and basically have to PAY.. to live on a planet they were born on.

When this is confronted by individuals to inform the same masses of their blindness to certain issues.. the same psychoanalysis is used to determine the probable reactions of the masses .. thus adequate discrediting takes place.
To top if off..  all of this stuff is mainly on a sub-conscious level
>>
Which by some strange coincidence is a field in researching the mind WE (meaning the general public) have the least knowledge about.



:hypno:


--------------------



---------------------

All my posts in this forum are strictly fictional.
They are derived from an acute mental illness , from which i am forced to lie compulsively.
I have never induced any kind of mind altering substance in my life  and i have no intentions whatsoever of doing anything illegal.
If I have ever suggested such a thing it would have most likely been , due to my personality disorder and i probably do not remember it at all..

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Re: Psychology as a whole- Do you buy it? [Re: jivJaN]
    #10275399 -

Quote:
No.. thats not what im saying at all.
If we do the above mentioned experiment we are causing no potential harm with our possible ignorance on the issue.
We could accelerate a marble and unless it bounces off the wall and hits someone in the eye.. were good :smile:



I never realized that scientific findings only impact our lives if an accelerated marble hits us in the eye. That is, with the exception of psychology of course...


I find it interesting that a lot of the issues you guys bring up about psychology, have the potential to change via psychology. Refer to my thread about the illusion of self. I'm using psychology against itself, because the scientific method allows that. I can criticize the past 100 years of psychological reasoning, and if I use the scientific method to successfully show the ways it has been misguided, it will be accepted.

If I just shout on a message board that it's wrong, I'm proving nothing.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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Re: Psychology as a whole- Do you buy it? [Re: Kickle]
    #10275725 -

I think its role is much too ambiguous.

A reflexive science, as you describe; isn't that essentially indulging in the "all to humane" aspects of it?

Or then as a humanism, the insistence on having their imposing white coats creates a logo-centric, normative model of discourse. Like you said, the scientific study of standardized textbooks, without the vulnerability of ordinary philosophic discourse.

Why? The difference would be that science is a fundamentally useful endeavor. It accomplishes rather than speculates.

So fit the human mind between cause and effect to delineate meaning. But how can it claim to derive this use from the human without imposing values?

Its a step up from morality to the institutionalization of the populace. Make the human work or function; not necessarily "good or bad", but always projecting "normalcy".


--------------------
Beware the Jabberwock, my son!
  The jaws that bite, the claws that catch!
Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun
  The frumious Bandersnatch!

Edited by daytripper23 (05/02/09 11:14 PM)

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Re: Psychology as a whole- Do you buy it? [Re: daytripper23]
    #10275920 -

Quote:
But how can it claim to derive use from the human without values?


A lot of times, phenomena are studied without any use in mind. The use comes once the phenomena is more accurately understood, and it is often determined by society at large, not just the science that discovers it.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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Re: Psychology as a whole- Do you buy it? [Re: Kickle]
    #10275931 -

could you give an example of that?

PS just made an edit by the way


--------------------
Beware the Jabberwock, my son!
  The jaws that bite, the claws that catch!
Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun
  The frumious Bandersnatch!

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Re: Psychology as a whole- Do you buy it? [Re: daytripper23]
    #10275966 -

The example that first comes to mind, although not from psychology, is the laser.

It was being initially researched in terms of condensing light. Who would predict that we would come to use it for eye surgery?

edit: Or how could I forget the obvious, in DVD/CDs?


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

Edited by Kickle (05/02/09 11:47 PM)

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Re: Psychology as a whole- Do you buy it? [Re: Kickle]
    #10276184 -

edit

I'm too tired for this kind of thought :frown:
I'll work on it tomorrow.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

Edited by Kickle (05/03/09 12:26 AM)

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Re: Psychology as a whole- Do you buy it? [Re: jivJaN]
    #10277884 -

Quote:
The difference is crucial.
If you and I subjectively decide that F=m*a we can put it to the test - and it will always work.


Actually no.
F=m*a will only be so in specific conditions, even physics laws might not be the same in this whole universe.

Quote:
No.. thats not what im saying at all.
If we do the above mentioned experiment we are causing no potential harm with our possible ignorance on the issue.


Read the above.

Quote:
Exactly.
That is one of the reasons why it is flawed.
You and I will never see the same green.


It's not the first time I'm saying this, but here goes: ALL science is based on observation.

Quote:
I am right you are wrong -  is simply  to point out how society works in general with the given authorities we have.
If you are going against it.. you will inevitably be WRONG  in there eyes , along with the people that end up persuaded into it through the only source of information they use , which is of course the media , the educational system .. etc.. - The norm.
Once this kind of mentality is established , my opinion is that you are no longer treated to benefit yourself, rather to benefit the whole which is directed to function under the above stated norm , that doesnt actually exist outside of our persuasion into it.


But mental illness is only taking place when it harms the individual who's displaying it, when it affects his emotional state and lucidity in such a manner that he can't function anymore and starts feeling depressed, sad, unable to enjoy life and connect to those around him, becomes paranoid, etc.
If these things, incidentally, are also harming other people, it doesn't mean that the NORM has decided and determined that person's mental health, since that is noticeable with the bare eye.

Quote:
In a court of law - psychiatric diagnosis can and will be used as evidence.

Feel free to ask , whatever you feel i might have wrongly presented , and feel free to confront it..


I already knew that, but you're still the one who's misinformed about how things go - you said:

Quote:
Im right - you're wrong.
Im a psychiatrist - you're mentally unstable
Im a judge ; i think the psychiatrist is right (probably because we share opinions) -
You.. go to prison.


:lol:
Obviously, if you actually knew how things go, you would have been aware of the fact that, if a psychiatrist's opinion is being solicited as an expert in a trial, and this expert concludes that the culprit's mental health is unstable, the culprit goes to a clinic where he gets specialized help, instead of going to prison. That is - he's being abolished of prison time.
The example you gave is incredibly misinformed.:sorry:

Quote:
For the record - Statements like the following are more likely to doom a discussion than anything else i might have stated in this thread.

I think you're just making shit up for dramatic effect.

If you don't get your facts straight, then this discussion is doomed.

If you will excuse my overactive sensitivity to indirect hostility..

Through my eyes.. this is the exact same attitude which is used to keep things the way they are.
Keep in mind that i am only using your statements as an immediate example , not to address you as a poster personally.

* Twisting my words - so to speak - with implications that my general viewpoint is almost paranoid , by coming to a stereotypical conclusion and posting the following question which serves to discredit myself in the eyes of other observers by over-generalizing and pointing out my possible lack of trust in the human experience overall.

Is human experience flawed because it's subjective?

which is followed by :



* Leading on - with question that cannot have a "rational" answer , and usually require a YES or NO ,  in which situation both replies discredit my statements.

* Accusations implying the lack of facts - while the discussion is mainly discussing the lack of factual evidence of the given science.

* Last but not least - humoristically cloaked provoking and finger pointing to my personal mental state with  ---- :wow: ---


I was making a comment about what you said and the manner you said it, and it was directly related to the subject; if you exaggerate or even distort the truth coming from an emotional perspective, then it is clear to me that your purpose was to gain ground from this over-emotional perspective. It is a logical fallacy, look it up. :wink:

Also, I can't see how you reached the conclusion that I was suggesting something about your mental state when I used this :wow: emoticon.

Quote:
... now..
On the web.. it doesnt really serve its purpose quite fully.
Hand gestures would be a worthy additive to an almost manipulative fashion of discussion which you can find in its purest form in the media.
Take a look at Sean Hanitty f.e.


I have no idea what you're trying to say here, but I see you don't have any problems with typing and typing, ANYTHING but a clear example that shows (with examples) how psychology is flawed and fails. It's rather amusing to see that. :smirk:

I'm not going to answer to the rest of your post because basically all you do is keep talking and talking about how psychology fails but you can't provide with REAL examples.
I'd be very interested to keep discussing with you, but you will have to actually start contributing with consistent stuff, instead of making up stories about Freud and the consumer society. :lol:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

Edited by MushroomTrip (05/03/09 12:10 PM)

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Re: Psychology as a whole- Do you buy it? [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #10277983 -

I'll give you an example of how psychology fails.

The doctor told my mother she has bipolar disorder. Now she blames everything on her bipolar disorder, she doesn't take responisiblity for anyting anymore, she distanted herself from her family and her friends. When she visited my sick aunt, she said, stop talking, my bipolar disorder is worse then your cancer!    If it wasn't for the doctor telling her she had bipolar disorder we wouldn't have gone through all this shit. Before, everything was just fine. But now she's convinced she has a disease that is incurable. Because the doctor has highest authority in psychology, it is impossible to convince her.

Many people go through the same thing, being convinced they are mentally ill and incurable, just because the doctor said so. Before the doctor said so, my mom was fine. Now it is impossible to talk to her.

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Re: Psychology as a whole- Do you buy it? [Re: Diaboleros]
    #10278002 -

That doesn't make sense. If he had symptoms that made the doctor think she was bipolar, how was she fine? How she reacts to her diagnoses is not the fault of psychology.

I like energy psychology.

Edited by mad_cow (05/03/09 06:26 PM)

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Re: Psychology as a whole- Do you buy it? [Re: Diaboleros]
    #10278065 -

Diaboleros said:
I'll give you an example of how psychology fails.

The doctor told my mother she has bipolar disorder. Now she blames everything on her bipolar disorder, she doesn't take responisiblity for anyting anymore, she distanted herself from her family and her friends. When she visited my sick aunt, she said, stop talking, my bipolar disorder is worse then your cancer!    If it wasn't for the doctor telling her she had bipolar disorder we wouldn't have gone through all this shit. Before, everything was just fine. But now she's convinced she has a disease that is incurable. Because the doctor has highest authority in psychology, it is impossible to convince her.

Many people go through the same thing, being convinced they are mentally ill and incurable, just because the doctor said so. Before the doctor said so, my mom was fine. Now it is impossible to talk to her.


Oh, so this is somehow the fault of psychology? :strokebeard:
Not meaning to insult your mother or anything, but nobody is at fault because SHE can't assume responsibility for herself, and the only reason she behaves the way she does is because it is convenient for her, and not because psychology has concluded that when one has bipolar disorder one loses control over oneself, and that once you have it there's no way back.

Also, the doctor? WTF! :what:
Psychologists aren't doctors, what are you talking about.
Anyways, I don't think he tells he that bipolar disorder is horrible and worse than cancer and that there aren't way to regain mental stability, since there's people who, helped by a specialist or even on their own, came back from it with a valuable lesson learned.

Please stop blaming psychology just because your mother doesn't want to help herself become mentally healthy again. Psychology never made claims such as bipolar disorder being incurable. :nono:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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Re: Psychology as a whole- Do you buy it? [Re: skatealex2]
    #10278311 -

Psychology is the study of the psyche, and there are various schools of thought on the nature of the psyche, ranging from a physical epiphenomenon to an a priori reality deriving from a Neo-Platonic Realm of Pure Ideas. So, there are materialist psychologists and non-material psychologists.
I took a PhD in Human development Education & Clinical Psychology. My Human Development advisor was, at the time, the only Jungian analyst in Maryland where I was at school. I had already taken a course in Jung at seminary, and before that under Egyptologist/Parapsychologist Bob Brier, so I was already closer to the non-materialist view. I moved further toward my Neo-Platonic philosophical roots with the help of psychedelics, Ram Dass, Ken Wilber and many others.

I my state I am a clinical mental health counselor by title (they wouldn't let me sit for the psyche exam 'cause they didn't like the developmental emphasis of my major). I have practiced counseling/psychotherapy and hypnotherapy since 1985/1989, and must translate my psychedelic insights into metaphors, analytical skills, personal story-telling, etc., especially when working with adolescents (my main job). I've had more positive feedback than negative over the years from counselees, but I wasn't accepted by the Jungians into training. They definately did not like my use of psychedelics. F**K 'em. I'm also a certified addictions specialist and I must compartmentalize my professional life so as to seriously discourage substance use by adolescents. No double messages to them. One must develop discernment in these things for the benefit of one's clients, not to mention CYA.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: Psychology as a whole- Do you buy it? [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #10278812 -

MushroomTrip said:
Please stop blaming psychology just because your mother doesn't want to help herself become mentally healthy again. Psychology never made claims such as bipolar disorder being incurable. :nono:


Nope, but they did make claims it was a disorder, while it is not. The mind can not get ill, the mind can not get sick, the mind can only get confused.

Proof? Clinical depression gets magically 'cured' by electroshock in 95% of all cases.
Quote:
In a study, ECT was shown clinically to be the most effective treatment for severe depression, and to result in improved quality of life in both short- and long-term.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electroconvulsive_therapy

The mind is immortal, and can very much be reset like a computer.

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Re: Psychology as a whole- Do you buy it? [Re: Diaboleros]
    #10279687 -

Quote:
Proof? Clinical depression gets magically 'cured' by electroshock in 95% of all cases.



:banghead:
No, it doesn't.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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Re: Psychology as a whole- Do you buy it? [Re: Kickle]
    #10279709 -

Electroshock removes the demons.

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Re: Psychology as a whole- Do you buy it? [Re: mad_cow]
    #10279851 -

Technically it activates genes responsible for the production of brain-derived neurotrophic factor, but, you know, demons sounds good too :grin:


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Re: Psychology as a whole- Do you buy it? [Re: zouden]
    #10279867 -

My mother had electroshock. It really fries your short term memory for a while. It seems to have helped.

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General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
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