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OfflineKalix
'Head

Registered: 03/20/05
Posts: 1,504
Last seen: 18 years, 1 month
Re: Psychology and Dogma in General as Bunk [Re: Kalix]
    #4301228 - 06/15/05 08:28 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

I mean, follow T. McKenna's advice, eat 5 dry grams of cubensis, alone, in silent darkness, and come back and tell me you didn't have some kind of spiritual awakening...


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My Unitarian Jihad Name is: The Shotgun of Sweet Reason


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OfflineKalix
'Head

Registered: 03/20/05
Posts: 1,504
Last seen: 18 years, 1 month
Re: Psychology as bunk [Re: Swami]
    #4301241 - 06/15/05 08:30 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Swami said:
Our culture is lacking in just that; a lack of cultural/shamanic framework to help utilize direct contact with the transcendental.

Yes! Sweet grass and drums and rattles are very healing.




A ritualistic form of respect, for things like the Peyote ritual, or a mushroom lodge, is more what I am talking about.. And sweet drums and rattles are much more healing than Ice cream parlors, and television..


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My Unitarian Jihad Name is: The Shotgun of Sweet Reason


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
waiting
Male

Registered: 02/01/05
Posts: 4,033
Loc: mountains and lakes
Last seen: 17 years, 3 months
Re: Psychology and Dogma in General as Bunk [Re: Kalix]
    #4301255 - 06/15/05 08:33 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Spiritual awakening is subjective. Anyone can claim to be spiritually awakened with his new ideas and views, but there is no way to tell what is a spiritual awakening.

Of course there is the good old argument: you just know it inside

but a shizo also knows inside that men in black are after him


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I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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OfflineKalix
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Registered: 03/20/05
Posts: 1,504
Last seen: 18 years, 1 month
Re: Psychology and Dogma in General as Bunk [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4301275 - 06/15/05 08:38 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Wheren't you just talking about how experience is what validates metaphysical reality?


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My Unitarian Jihad Name is: The Shotgun of Sweet Reason


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Psychology as bunk [Re: Kalix]
    #4301278 - 06/15/05 08:38 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

A ritualistic form of respect, for things like the Peyote ritual, or a mushroom lodge, is more what I am talking about..
So if the sick person has no respect for these things, then what?

And sweet drums and rattles are much more healing than Ice cream parlors, and television..
What do ice cream parlors and TV have to do with pyschology? Is that not what we were talking about or are you off on some tangential rant unrelated to your own topic?

Also, please show some non-anecdotal references that point to the healing power of drums and rattles or is your mere opinion sufficient?


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The proof is in the pudding.


Edited by Swami (06/15/05 09:45 PM)


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Registered: 02/01/05
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Re: Psychology and Dogma in General as Bunk [Re: Kalix]
    #4301282 - 06/15/05 08:39 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

I don't thinks so.


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
Stranger

Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 4,587
Re: Psychology and Dogma in General as Bunk [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4301291 - 06/15/05 08:40 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Psychedelics have never felt 'transcendental' to me. In fact, its almost always the opposite. I realize nothing is true, and every 'thing' is a model of some distant unknowable reality.


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InvisibleSwami
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Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
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Re: Psychology and Dogma in General as Bunk [Re: Kalix]
    #4301306 - 06/15/05 08:45 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

I mean, follow T. McKenna's advice, eat 5 dry grams of cubensis, alone, in silent darkness, and come back and tell me you didn't have some kind of spiritual awakening...

Yeah, that Time-Wave Zero thingie and the modifying DNA by making insect sounds that the mushrooms showed him smacks of a deeper understanding of the Universe and not some wacked out pseudo-science idea.

We need more people with these types of deep revelations.


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The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Psychology as bunk [Re: Kalix]
    #4301369 - 06/15/05 09:05 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)



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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Psychology and Dogma in General as Bunk [Re: Kalix]
    #4301598 - 06/15/05 10:06 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

There have been people like R.D. Laing, Thomas Szasz, Mark Epstein, Rick Strassman and Stanislav Grof in the discipline of psychiatry. Don't forget Timothy Leary, Dick Alpert, Ralph Metzner, Walter Houston Clark, Sheldon Kopp, Jack Kornfield in psychology; and  people such as Jean Houston and her ex husband R.E.L. Masters (who together wrote The Varieties of Psychedelic Experience), Ken Wilber, Alex Grey and others who are experts in the study of consciousness.

Psychology proper (and I minored in clinical psychology at the University of Maryland), is about obtaining the credentials to charge upwards of $1500.00 for a battery of tests that a chimpanzee could administer. Interpretations are computerized except for a handful of projective tests which are evaluated with pure subjectivity on the part of the psychologist (e.g., Rorschach, Thematic Aptitude Test, Person-Tree-House test). What people are interested in here, re: the Psychedelic Experience, is more about the field called 'Consciousness' than psychology, which is really only about 'experimental' psychology - a pawn of the medical model, and frequently about individuals who could not go to medical school for one reason or another.

When I was a biology major many moons ago, psychology hardly seemed like science. Then, when I became a philosophy major, psychology suddenly was being spoken about by other undergraduates as a science, as a rigorous scientific discipline. Ah the relativity of it all. John Watson's school dominated Edward Titchner's school, empiricism of behavior over introspectionism, a recapitulation of Aristotelianism over Platonism - and the rest is history.
http://pages.stern.nyu.edu/~wstarbuc/Janusweb/sld009.htm

Psychology appears to me, by-and-large, as a mere occupation. As Dick Alpert said in BE HERE NOW:
"My colleagues and I were 9 to 5 psychologists: we came to work every day and we did our psychology, just as you would do insurance or auto mechanics, and then at 5 went home and were just as neurotic as we were when we went to work. Somehow, it seemed to me, if all of this theory were right, it should play more intimately into my own life. I understood the requirement of being 'objective' for a scientist, but this is a most naive concept in social sciences as we are finding out...Something was wrong. And the something wrong was that I just didn't know, though I kept feeling all along the way that somebody else must know even though I didn't....And there was a slight panic in me that I was going to spend the next 40 years not knowing, and that was apparently the course...The whole thing was too empty. It was not honest enough."

Sometimes I experience myself as a preacher for BE HERE NOW - a back-to-the-roots 60's hippy thing that parallels the fundamentalist (which is no fun at all) Christian preachers for the Bible. So be it. People have 'consumed' the Psychedelic Experience and s**t it back out of their being, with nary a trace, let alone a profound change such as that which occurred for Dick Alpert. I recommend that anyone who reads my response pick up and read the first section of BE HERE NOW at the first opportunity. It still excites me that after 30+ years, a juicy, living, Transcendental message is still alive in that purple book. Meanwhile, if I could, I would still wax ecstatic about the mysticism that lives in me, and I for it. It may sound pathetic, but it feels profound when I say that all of these years of school and employment have been aimed at getting a place of my own and a woman who chooses to be with me, to live out the message of BE HERE NOW - to enter into those brown pages that have suspended my consciousness above the passage of time (30+ years!!!) - that has shown me life in The Heart Cave, and Whose Heart Cave it is.

Peace Out and excuse the gush  :blush:


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


Edited by MarkostheGnostic (06/16/05 08:05 AM)


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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male

Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Psychology and Dogma in General as Bunk [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #4302041 - 06/15/05 11:45 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Yes!


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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly
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Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 10,685
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Re: Psychology and Dogma in General as Bunk [Re: Icelander]
    #4302079 - 06/15/05 11:54 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

"Psychology appears to me, by-and-large, as a mere occupation. As Dick Alpert said in BE HERE NOW:
"My colleagues and I were 9 to 5 psychologists: we came to work every day and we did our psychology, just as you would do insurance or auto mechanics, and then at 5 went home and were just as neurotic as we were when we went to work."

Should you not live the path you point others down? In my view the psychologist should be his own patient.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male

Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Psychology and Dogma in General as Bunk [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4302166 - 06/16/05 12:15 AM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Yeah. And he should get a second opinion. :mushroom2:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
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Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,526
Re: Psychology and Dogma in General as Bunk [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4302221 - 06/16/05 12:27 AM (18 years, 7 months ago)

true


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:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


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OfflineKalix
'Head

Registered: 03/20/05
Posts: 1,504
Last seen: 18 years, 1 month
Re: Psychology and Dogma in General as Bunk [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #4302740 - 06/16/05 07:10 AM (18 years, 7 months ago)

You encapsulate my point quite well, even express what I was trying to express better than I could've myself.. Well said!


--------------------


My Unitarian Jihad Name is: The Shotgun of Sweet Reason


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Registered: 12/09/99
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Re: Psychology and Dogma in General as Bunk [Re: Kalix]
    #4302810 - 06/16/05 08:02 AM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Thank you kindly.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Registered: 12/09/99
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Re: Psychology and Dogma in General as Bunk [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4302828 - 06/16/05 08:11 AM (18 years, 7 months ago)

'Indubitably!' The goal of analysis is to acquire the ability to self-analyze and leave the analyst behind [analyst behind - is that some kind of pun? :smile: ]


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OfflineWanderingStudent
terminal learner

Registered: 06/02/05
Posts: 78
Last seen: 18 years, 3 months
Re: Psychology and Dogma in General as Bunk [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4303255 - 06/16/05 10:54 AM (18 years, 7 months ago)

As a psych major, I'm always being self-analytical. This may sound like a cop-out, but no one is perfect. Sanity and insanity isn't a pass/faily system. It's a sliding scale, based on the society you're in. Of course it isn't a perfect system, but it doesn't mean the entire concept of psychology should be treated as bunk.


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