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Psychological study on the potential for evil in people
    #9461929 -

I thought this article was interesting in the sense that it adds more weight to the argument that there are more 'bad' people in the world than 'good'. What I mean be this statement is that the majority of people, when put into positions of power and under situations of command, they will choose to things that they know in their hearts to be immoral and wrong.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/HEALTH/12/19/milgram.experiment.obedience/index.html

Quote:
Charting the psychology of evil, decades after 'shock' experiment

By Elizabeth Landau
CNN
    (CNN) -- If someone told you to press a button to deliver a 450-volt electrical shock to an innocent person in the next room, would you do it?

Common sense may say no, but decades of research suggests otherwise.

In the early 1960s, a young psychologist at Yale began what became one of the most widely recognized experiments in his field. In the first series, he found that about two-thirds of subjects were willing to inflict what they believed were increasingly painful shocks on an innocent person when the experimenter told them to do so, even when the victim screamed and pleaded.

The legacy of Milgram, who died 24 years ago on December 20, reaches far beyond that initial round of experiments. Researchers have been working on the questions he posed for decades, and have not settled on a brighter vision of human obedience.

A new study to be published in the January issue of American Psychologist confirmed these results in an experiment that mimics many of Milgram's original conditions. This and other studies have corroborated the startling conclusion that the majority of people, when placed in certain kinds of situations, will follow orders, even if those orders entail harming another person.

"It's situations that make ordinary people into evil monsters, and it's situations that make ordinary people into heroes," said Philip Zimbardo, professor emeritus of psychology at Stanford University and author of "The Lucifer Effect: Understanding How Good People Turn Evil."

How Milgram's experiments worked

Milgram, who also came up with the theory behind "six degrees of separation" -- the idea that everyone is connected to everyone else through a small number of acquaintances -- set out to figure out why people would turn against their own neighbors in circumstances such as Nazi-occupied Europe. Referring to Nazi leader Adolf Eichmann, Milgram wrote in 1974, "Could it be that Eichmann and his million accomplices in the Holocaust were just following orders? Could we call them all accomplices?"

His experiment in its standard form included a fake shock machine, a "teacher," a "learner" and an experimenter in a laboratory setting. The participant was told that he or she had to teach the student to memorize a pair of words, and the punishment for a wrong answer was a shock from the machine.

The teacher sat in front of the shock machine, which had 30 levers, each corresponding to an additional 15 volts. With each mistake the student made, the teacher had to pull the next lever to deliver a more painful punishment.

While the machine didn't generate shocks and a recorded voice track simulated painful reactions, the teacher was led to believe that he or she was shocking a student, who screamed and asked to leave at higher voltages, and eventually fell silent.

If the teacher questioned continuing as instructed, the experimenter simply said, "The experiment requires that you go on," said Thomas Blass, author of the biography "The Man Who Shocked The World: The Life and Legacy of Stanley Milgram" and the Web site StanleyMilgram.com.

About 65 percent of participants pulled levers corresponding to the maximum voltage -- 450 volts -- in spite of the screams of agony from the learner.

"What the experiment shows is that the person whose authority I consider to be legitimate, that he has a right to tell me what to do and therefore I have obligation to follow his orders, that person could make me, make most people, act contrary to their conscience," Blass said.

An update

Because of revised ethical standards for human subject research, this kind of experiment cannot be replicated exactly. But Jerry Burger, professor of psychology at Santa Clara University in Santa Clara, California, made some tweaks to see if Milgram's results hold up today.  Watch an audio slide show for more on these experiments ยป

His study's design imitated Milgram's, even using the same scripts for the experimenter and suffering learner, but the key difference was that this experiment stopped at 150 volts -- when the learner starts asking to leave. In Milgram's experiment, 79 percent of participants who got to that point went all the way to the maximum shock, he said.

To eliminate bias from the fame of Milgram's experiment, Burger ruled out anyone who had taken two or more college-level psychology classes, and anyone who expressed familiarity with it in the debriefing. The "teachers" in this recent experiment, conducted in 2006, also received several reminders that they could quit whenever they wanted, unlike in Milgram's study.

The new results correlate well with Milgram's: 70 percent of the 40 participants were willing to continue after 150 volts, compared with 82.5 percent in Milgram's study -- a difference that is not statistically significant, Burger said.

Still, some psychologists quoted in the same issue of American Psychologist questioned how comparable this study is to Milgram's, given the differences in methods.

The idea of blind obedience isn't as important in these studies as the larger message about the power of the situation, Burger said. It's also significant that the participant begins with small voltages that increase in small doses over time.

"It's that gradual incremental nature that, as we know, is a very powerful way to change attitudes and behaviors," he said.

Stanford Prison Experiment


This idea of circumstances driving immoral behavior also came out in the Stanford Prison Experiment, a study done in 1971 that is the subject of a film in preproduction, written and directed by Christopher McQuarrie. Work on the film will resume in 2009 after McQuarrie's "Valkyrie" is released, his spokesperson said.

In this study, designed by Stanford's Zimbardo, two dozen male college students were randomly designated as either prison guards or prisoners, and lived in the basement of the university's psychology building playing these roles in their respective uniforms.

Within three days, participants had extreme stress reactions, Zimbardo said. The guards became abusive to the prisoners -- sexually taunting them, asking them to strip naked and demanding that they clean toilet bowls with their bare hands, Zimbardo said. Five prisoners had to be released before the study was over.

Zimbardo's own role illustrated his point: Because he took on the role of prison administrator, he became so engrossed in the jail system that he didn't stop the experiment as soon as this cruelty began, he said.

"If I were simply the principal experimenter, I would have ended it after the second kid broke down," he said. "We all did bad things in this study, including me, but it's diagnostic of the power situation."

Turning the principle around

But while ordinary people have the potential do to evil, they also have the power to do good. That's the subject of the Everyday Heroism project, a collection of social scientists, including Zimbardo, seeking to understand heroic activity -- an area in which almost no research has been done, he said.


Acts such as learning first aid, leading others to the exit in an emergency and encouraging family members to recycle are some heroic behaviors that Zimbardo seeks to encourage.

"Most heroes are everyday people who do a heroic deed once in their lifetime because they have to be in a situation of evil or danger," he said.





What do you guys/girls think about this?

I have always had faith in others, but I also always knew, deep down, that most all people will  let each other fall if the chips were down, so to speak. I don't like to think like that, so I try and remain positive at all times, but I am always wary and careful with how much faith I instill in the integrity of others.

I still love you all, though.

:heart:


--------------------



:murray:

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Re: Psychological study on the potential for evil in people [Re: blissedout]
    #9462358 -

Firstly, I think that the terms "evil" and "good" must be dropped, in order to have a fruitful conversation.
Also, I think that it's kind of naive and foolish to think that anyone would "blindly" follow orders, since this implies that the one that followed the orders had no thought at all in their mind regarding that particular situation. Otherwise, it would mean that he/she followed the order because they decided to do so, which implies thinking. The quality of their reasoning remains debatable, from circumstance to circumstance, but it doesn't mean that people who follow orders are "mean". :lol:

Quote:
I don't like to think like that, so I try and remain positive at all times, but I am always wary and careful with how much faith I instill in the integrity of others.



You mean you don't like to think realistically and accept facts? :confused:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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Re: Psychological study on the potential for evil in people [Re: blissedout]
    #9462365 -

:shrug:

There is good and bad in everybody.  The whole idea of good guys and bad guys is just dumb.  We are all ultimately out for ourselves, so selfish behavior shouldn't be surprising.  Some people tend to serve themselves by means of dominating or overpowering others, and some tend to serve themselves by means of building rapport and cooperating.  It all depends on whose behavior you model your own on while you are developing.  We all employ at least a bit of both, IMO.


--------------------
Welcome evermore to gods and men is the self-helping man.  For him all doors are flung wide: him all tongues greet, all honors crown, all eyes follow with desire.  Our love goes out to him and embraces him, because he did not need it.

~ R.W. Emerson, "Self-Reliance"

:heartpump:

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Re: Psychological study on the potential for evil in people [Re: blissedout]
    #9463059 -

I was going to major in psych 2 years ago and when I took a my first class I immediately dropped out of school.

I cant believe in this modern age psychology has so much credibility.

Human consciousness is so subjective, and then to throw a study about "morality" the most subjective topic that there is is just absurd.

I'm sorry to come in and bash that story blissed out but I could not remain silent as I am twacked on amphetamines right now.


--------------------
"Absolute certainty is a privilege of uneducated minds and fanatics." ~ C.J. Keyser



Mr. Cypher said: "I just tell the girls how sexy I am and their panties melt."

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Re: Psychological study on the potential for evil in people [Re: WhiskeyClone]
    #9463112 -

We all employ at least a bit of both, IMO.

Agreed, you need one to have the other.


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Let's get the fuck out of here.

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Re: Psychological study on the potential for evil in people [Re: Bernackums]
    #9463169 -

The milgram and zombaro studies are like 30-40 years old, why is this news?


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Re: Psychological study on the potential for evil in people [Re: Bernackums]
    #9463170 -

I's say that the worldwide mandate for collectivism and statism is evidence that almost everyone is "evil."


--------------------
I'm a nihilist. Lets be friends.

bang bang

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Re: Psychological study on the potential for evil in people [Re: blissedout]
    #9464599 -

what is immoral?  what is wrong?

on the other hand, what is moral?  what is right?


--------------------
channel your inner Larry David

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Re: Psychological study on the potential for evil in people [Re: demiu5]
    #9464614 -

Morals and ethics are subjective to the individual.


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Let's get the fuck out of here.

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Re: Psychological study on the potential for evil in people [Re: Bernackums] * 1
    #9464680 -

Bernackums said:
Morals and ethics are subjective to the individual.



Shall we spring open the doors to all of our prisons then?  After all, none of the murderers or rapists currently imprisoned did anything wrong.


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Re: Psychological study on the potential for evil in people [Re: deCypher]
    #9464741 -

Why is it necessary to justify their imprisonment in moralistic terms?  From a purely practical viewpoint, it is undesirable to have dangerous persons roaming free.

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Re: Psychological study on the potential for evil in people [Re: Veritas]
    #9464819 -

Veritas said:
Why is it necessary to justify their imprisonment in moralistic terms?  From a purely practical viewpoint, it is undesirable to have dangerous persons roaming free.



I agree, but surely the law overlaps more with moral behavior than with immoral?


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Re: Psychological study on the potential for evil in people [Re: deCypher]
    #9464837 -

Some behaviors which are dangerous to others are also considered immoral.  This is not coincidental, nor does it point to morality being inherent. The core ideas of morality are most likely based upon rules which led to successful tribes.

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Re: Psychological study on the potential for evil in people [Re: Veritas]
    #9464867 -

Quote:
Veritas said: The core ideas of morality are most likely based upon rules which led to successful tribes.



Right, so shouldn't law attempt to legislate morality?


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Re: Psychological study on the potential for evil in people [Re: blissedout]
    #9464997 -

A definition of evil that might be worth considering: a subconscious desire to directly or indirectly cause the death of another person or the self, fueled by guilt, shame, and hatred.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love     truth awareness peace I am      I feel      I do     I love  I speak    I see    I know

why there is reality and patterned, law-like consistency at all, rather than noise or non-reality is not a question physics answers. It's a question physics presupposes an answer to in order to provide other answers.

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Re: Psychological study on the potential for evil in people [Re: deCypher]
    #9465139 -

deCypher said:
Quote:
Veritas said: The core ideas of morality are most likely based upon rules which led to successful tribes.



Right, so shouldn't law attempt to legislate morality?



Nah I think logic overlaps any good that morality does.  Rationality should take precedence over emotion when it comes to making legislation.


--------------------
Welcome evermore to gods and men is the self-helping man.  For him all doors are flung wide: him all tongues greet, all honors crown, all eyes follow with desire.  Our love goes out to him and embraces him, because he did not need it.

~ R.W. Emerson, "Self-Reliance"

:heartpump:

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Re: Psychological study on the potential for evil in people [Re: deCypher]
    #9465388 -

deCypher said:
Right, so shouldn't law attempt to legislate morality?



Should? Shouldn't?


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: Psychological study on the potential for evil in people [Re: WhiskeyClone]
    #9465412 -

WhiskeyClone said: Rationality should take precedence over emotion when it comes to making legislation.



Are you advocating utilitarianism?  :nono:

Quote:
fireworks_god said:
Should? Shouldn't?



According to the definition of the word:  used in auxiliary function to express obligation, propriety, or expediency


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Re: Psychological study on the potential for evil in people [Re: Rahz] * 1
    #9465431 -

Rahz said:
A definition of evil that might be worth considering: a subconscious desire to directly or indirectly cause the death of another person or the self, fueled by guilt, shame, and hatred.





but taking the life of an animal for food is not evil?  a life is being taken in any circumstance.  somehow the drive behind it is what determines if it's "evil" or "pure?"

i don't buy that


--------------------
channel your inner Larry David

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Re: Psychological study on the potential for evil in people [Re: deCypher]
    #9465563 -

deCypher said:
According to the definition of the word:  used in auxiliary function to express obligation, propriety, or expediency



What's your point? Completely irrelevant to my questions. Why do you assume it is to be a matter of obligation? Doesn't it imply a sense of how things are to be? Which sense would you like to use in determining this?


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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