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OfflineWoland
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Abnormal Psychology, not so abnormal....
    #3706802 - 01/31/05 09:49 AM (12 years, 5 months ago)

I took an abnormal psychology class last semester at college and was quite appalled. It think that the real insanity is that there are soooo many abnormal "diseases" or whatever that these "crazy" people have, and yet psychologist/psychiatrists really don't have real good grasp on what causes these disorders and how to cure them. I mean I wanted some Ritalin or lithium or whatever anti-psychotic/anti-anxiety pill I wanted I could just go to a psychiatrist and act out the symptoms according to the DSM criteria for whatever. It's ridiculous how many of the diseases there are, there's one for everybody at least. I don't know. I had to go through psychiatry for a while and the best cure I found was my spirituality, not some pill. I will admit that there are people that do need their medication because some do help. But in most cases anyone that goes to a doctor and says they're sad, boom. Pills, pills, pills... Come on, no one is happy all the time.
If psychiatrists were to go by the DSM criteria than I think we would find out that we all have one disease or another. Hell we would need psychiatrists for psychiatrists.
I guess I have somewhat of a biased view on this subject just because of all the crap I went through for 6 years. But.....
anyone else have input?


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"It's bad enough that you sell your waking life for minimum wage, but now they get your dreams for free."


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OfflineNuperSova
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Re: Abnormal Psychology, not so abnormal.... [Re: Woland]
    #3706842 - 01/31/05 10:34 AM (12 years, 5 months ago)

It's because the medical industry can't make money by curing you, so they sedate you and keep you coming back for more. The food and medical industry are similar in this way, that they have a hand in creating/exposing you to what is ailing you, and then pacify you by treating the symptoms.

Chryssi


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I Refuse To Say I'm Lost Just Because I Don't Know Where I Am


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Offlinethe_phoenix
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Re: Abnormal Psychology, not so abnormal.... [Re: Woland]
    #3706852 - 01/31/05 10:40 AM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Woland said:
I had to go through psychiatry for a while and the best cure I found was my spirituality, not some pill.


:thumbup:
I agree with everything you said, especially ^^^


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Offlinefresh313
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Re: Abnormal Psychology, not so abnormal.... [Re: the_phoenix]
    #3708098 - 01/31/05 05:24 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

the person(s) who wrote the dsmv had psychocentric illusions of grandeur


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Abnormal Psychology, not so abnormal.... [Re: Woland]
    #3708780 - 01/31/05 07:03 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Yes, lots of input. You are taking issue with one discipline - psychiatry. Psychiatrists are medical doctors, M.D.'s who specialize in disorders of the mind. Their entire model of 'mind' is materialistically oriented. Their mode of treatment is with medicines - materials.

I am a state licensed and nationally certified clinical mental health counselor. Mental health counseling derives from an 'educational' model rather than a 'disease' model taken from medicine. In counseling, human beings are perceived as being essentially normal, but having varying degrees of psychological obstacles preventing optimal functioning. Sometimes I recognize that a client (notice, 'client,' NOT 'patient') needs a medication, and I have made recommendation to a psychiatrist because they hold DEA licenses to prescribe medication and non-medical doctors do not (although in Florida, a licensed psychologist who takes a $13,000 Masters degree in psychopharmacology and passes a tough test, can now prescribe certain anti-depressants and anti-anxiolytics).

Licensed clinical social workers, licensed clinical/counseling psychologists and psychiatric nursing are disciplines which also utilize the medical model. Marriage and family counseling is yet another discipline which uses a systems approach. Pastoral counseling draws on different models as well as tenets of particular religions.

All of the above disciplines can practice 'psychotherapy' - the 'care of souls' in one translation (psycho-the-rapist in another :smile: ). I hold a Ph.D. - Doctor of Philosophy degree, and I take the words seriously. It is held within the disciplines of Human Development Education and Clinical Psychology. I also hold degrees in philosophy and theology and so my emphasis is going to be on processes, models of understanding and values that are rather different than practitioners for whom family dynamics, social processes, or physiology are the main causation of mental dis-ease.

It is not accurate or fair to place blame on ethical and legitimate prescriptions for medication which are sometimes necessary for psychotherapy to progress. I do have a problem with psychiatrists who only prescribe and do not do therapy. It is easy, they can bill for sessions, and they do not have to master the use of words, models, metaphors or have personal development on their own to impart. Medicines alone will never touch upon the existential and essential underpinnings of the human condition.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflineWoland
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Re: Abnormal Psychology, not so abnormal.... [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #3712121 - 02/01/05 08:40 AM (12 years, 5 months ago)

"It is not accurate or fair to place blame on ethical and legitimate prescriptions for medication which are sometimes necessary for psychotherapy to progress."

Your right MarkostheGnostic it isn't, and that wasn't how I was trying to come across. I also do not doubt the thorough knowledge that one must have to earn a PHD (of any kind). My main problem is not with the extreme diseases (schizophrenia, OCD, as those are almost always obvious) as much as with the subjectivity of the smaller ones such as Depression and anxiety. I think it's just all up in the air.
I guess it's just normal to be crazy since everyone is, so there really isn't such thing as "abnormal" psychology.
Not sure,
Also how often do people go into a psychiatrists office and are told that they do not have a problem? Seriously, I wanna know....


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Offlinefresh313
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Re: Abnormal Psychology, not so abnormal.... [Re: Woland]
    #3713086 - 02/01/05 01:12 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

i have a study coming out soon which shows that regular people can diagnose mental illness more accurately and effeciently than psych(iatrists)ologists

:jester:


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Abnormal Psychology, not so abnormal.... [Re: Woland]
    #3714095 - 02/01/05 05:46 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

If someone is motivated to see any mental health practitioner, it is usually after they have talked with their friends or spouses; have tried like hell to work something out themselves; have tried self-medicating themselves or have consulted their non-clinical clergyman. Something is not right. Now, if the mental health practitioner has some real insight and believes [s]he can be helpful, so be it. Whem Bill W. travelled to Switzerland to see C.G. Jung to ask for advice on how to cure alcoholism, Jung didn't have him stay in Switzerland to undergo analysis. He told Bill W. that a religious experience was necessary for such a cure. THAT is what Jung contributed, and Bill W. returned to the USA, began to participate in early LSD therapy, HAD a religious experience, translated his experience into a Yoga-like stage program called The 12 Steps and 12 Traditions, and Alcoholics Anonymous was born. The rest is history. Jung was an ethical practitioner.

I have dismissed potential clients after their FREE face-to-face consultation because their presenting problem was not what they wrongly believed it to be. A little clarification was all they needed. I'm not going to lie to people, tell them they're in need to make money off them. That is unethical and I'm an ethical practitioner. You must have had some bad experiences with psychiatrists (in Miami I've had lots of problems with dentists). Actually, I've attempted to end a run of therapy and been told by the client that he'd let me know when HE was ready to leave! I don't work with managed care and I know private psychotherapy is expensive (which is why I focus on hypnotherapy -it's brief). Fortunately, private therapy is an avocation not my main income so I could afford to be generous to clients, sometimes to a fault.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Abnormal Psychology, not so abnormal.... [Re: fresh313]
    #3714131 - 02/01/05 05:55 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

I'm regular - an apple-a-day keeps the doctor away. Besides being regular, I also got an education, pre and post doctoral internships, and now, 22 years of experience. So if you want to compare another regular person, who didn't get and education or internships or many years of experience, then all you're gonna get is someone who can label obvious behaviors from DSM IV-R. Treatment is a completely different issue of course, and most any experienced therapist knows that the DSM does not flesh out all categories of psychopathology. It is also widely known that diagnoses are manipulated because insurance companies do not pay for the treatment of all diagnoses. I'm afraid your study is radically flawed. Perhaps a nice game of tic-tac-toe instead :wink:


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Offlinefresh313
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Re: Abnormal Psychology, not so abnormal.... [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #3717483 - 02/02/05 04:56 AM (12 years, 5 months ago)

regular)(no formal education in the area, besides the DSMV manuals)
has > efficiency and accuracy in diagnosis

the experience perspective differs as to yours

treatment is the next study :jester:


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Abnormal Psychology, not so abnormal.... [Re: fresh313]
    #3717978 - 02/02/05 07:52 AM (12 years, 5 months ago)

I'm still recuperating from minor surgery. You can be sure I didn't seek out one of those unlicensed, third-world, illegally-practicing Miami wanna-be physicians. Nope...I went to a credible, experienced surgeon with a credible, experienced anaesthesiologist. Is there any rationale for acknowledging the actions of a quack?


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflineWoland
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Re: Abnormal Psychology, not so abnormal.... [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #3718153 - 02/02/05 09:59 AM (12 years, 5 months ago)

I must say, Touche' my gnostic friend. Touche'. haha. Some very good points, obviously you know you're psychology thoroughly. You're forgetting about one other thing about people seeking treatment, pressure. They are told by everyone around that they have a problem because of they way that they think or what not. I lived most of my life a very introspective person, something I (I need to find out how to use italics on this board for emphasis!) had no problem with. I was not depressed or ADD, I had no problem focusing but because of my silence I was constantly told to see a psychiatrist and when I did, I found out that I was Bi-polar, OCD, and ADD. hmmmmm. I've switched psychiatrists and earned many many different diagnosis, Bi-polar, OCD, ADD, Manic, Clinically Depressed, Chronic Anxiety, and borderline (I know this is ridiculous right?) personality. Now the funny thing was that the only people who saw these things in me, where the psychiatrists. And they didn't even agree with each other. All I got was like 15 minute meetings with them once every month or so, I'd fill out a little questionnaire on whatever, and then they would either alter the medication or alter my diagnosis. Yeah after all those diagnosis, I actually started seeing these things in myself. But why hadn't I before? Because when someone keeps telling you that you're something, you start to beleive it even if it's stupid. And especially when you're a young teen whose confused on life.
Needless to say I became depressed, lots of thoughts like, "Man I really must be f'd up!" etc.
This is where I'm coming from. This is why I have turned my back on psychology and have turned to spirituality, because no God will ever tell me that I'm fucked up. Maybe that I have messed up, but I myself am no crazy.
or am I? :nut:
Now I know we could go back into the ethics of Psychiatrists (and I do not doubt that there are some out there, like you say there are) but I think I've said this before. When it comes down to it, psychiatrists are making money off of mental diseases. So the more diseases, the more money. About 350 mental disorders in the DSMV!
Now that's insane
here are some of my favorites...
Sleepwalking Disorder
Caffeine Intoxication (I'm guilty of this one!!)
Nicotine Dependence (this one too...)
Cannabis Abuse :whistling: (never tried this...)
Hallucinogen Abuse (what are hallucinogens?)
So in summary. I don't let people tell me I'm sick.
I would rather commit suicide from an intense depressive episode than live the rest of my life on mind numbing pills.....


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Offlinefresh313
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Re: Abnormal Psychology, not so abnormal.... [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #3720326 - 02/02/05 07:52 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

comparing physical medicine with psychology
sounds like your mixing up your apples and oranges


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Abnormal Psychology, not so abnormal.... [Re: Woland]
    #3720697 - 02/02/05 09:04 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

I have one-inch psychiatric reports like the one you named for adolescents that I work with - impossible! (BTW: Click on 'italics' in the Instant UBB Code box, type what you want italicized, then right-arrow the cursor to the right of the to quit the italicizing).

You have to identify the most troublesome personality glitches without assuming that they are all the tips of giant pathological icebergs, and treat them to eliminate them. Many can be trained out behaviorally. Others 'might' require a depth approach like hypnotherapy (or hypnoanalysis - a much quicker way to dig up a root from the past). Craziness is on a continuum. We all have OCD tendencies, or other tendencies, but when those tendencies happen with greater and greater frequency and intensity the symptoms begin to color our personality along certain lines. It's as The Moody Blues put it - 'A Question of Balance.' Describing predominant psychic themes is not necessarily name-calling but I totally understand not liking being name-called for someone else's agenda rather than the alleviation of your suffering! Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. You have to find a decent practitioner for therapy and THEN hook up with a source of 'helpful' pharmaceuticals to facilitate the psychotherapy. You will have to eliminate recreational drugs during intense 'sadhana' [spiritual discipline] of which psychotherapy is a type.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Abnormal Psychology, not so abnormal.... [Re: fresh313]
    #3720743 - 02/02/05 09:14 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

I am not confusing anything. Medicine is one discipline for approaching the psyche, and it uses medicines. The other non-medical discipline all have their particular process vectors into the psyche: clinical social work might focus on social processes; clinical psychology has a large number of approaches: behavioral, psychoanalytic, gestalt, organismic, humanistic, transpersonal, analytical psychology, etc., etc. The object in question is the psyche, how it is regarded, what its nature is, is described variously by these disciplines. It is like the 5 blind men touching different parts of an elephant and all describing different aspects of the one thing. The guy touching a leg and describing the creature as a tree is gonna be a lot different than the guy touching the ear and thinking the creature is like a great leaf. They are all correct and must integrate their data into a whole.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Offlinefresh313
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Re: Abnormal Psychology, not so abnormal.... [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #3720764 - 02/02/05 09:18 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

the ones doing the touching are describing are not the ones doing the feeling and living.  :confused:


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OfflineWoland
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Re: Abnormal Psychology, not so abnormal.... [Re: fresh313]
    #3721089 - 02/02/05 09:59 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

I just remembered one of my favorite parables/stories/analogies (It kinda fits in all of them)
There was a village where the water became contaminated. One man found this out and also found out that drinking the water would make people go mad. He tried to tell everyone, but no one would listen. Some had already become crazy. So in order to save himself from insanity this man went to the hills to live in solitude. However, after so many years, he decided he would rather be crazy like everyone else than live a life of complete solitude. Besides ignorance is bliss right? So he went down to the town, and drank of the water, and became mad.
A couple thoughts on this story,
"Collective Soul"...
What's crazier? A life of loneliness or a life of ignorance?
What defines normal? Majority or rationality?
Also does anyone know who came up with this story, and when it was written? I can't even remember where I heard it.


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"It's bad enough that you sell your waking life for minimum wage, but now they get your dreams for free."


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OfflineWoland
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Re: Abnormal Psychology, not so abnormal.... [Re: Woland]
    #3721163 - 02/02/05 10:09 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Also, it's all good in theory, but then so is anarchy, and hell so is communism too. But in reality, some things just don't work because humans are humans and there is not criteria for the human mind or soul. Sure we can look at the brain, but never can we see the mind. And when people try to explain what happens in their mind, all you get is words. And words are dead, they can communicate some simple things. But when delving into thoughts and knowledge etc. no words can describe knowledge or emotion.
Like I said, in theory, it's great. But when theory is put in the hands of humans to act out. Then ego's and power, selfishness, greed, bias and all that other shit come into the theory with the actor. Can any actor really capture what hamlet was like in Shakespeares mind in a play? All the actor can do is read the words and express them how he feels they are best expressed and played.
Not sure if it was too good of analogy. Also this thread prolly should have been posted under health.... oh well, too late.


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General Interest >> Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology

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