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General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
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Re: Psychology as a whole- Do you buy it? [Re: Diaboleros]
    #10288188 -

Quote:
Depression is mere melancholy. It's only an emotion and can change into another emotion anytime. Even depressed people fall in love or laugh.  Clinical depression is what happens when people believe depression is a fixed state of mind. The emotion becomes a meditation. Analyze their thoughts, and you will see they think about nothing else but the melancholy.


I'm sorry, but you don't have a clue what you are talking about. I'm not even going to bother asking for a source for this particularly ridiculous claim, since you completely failed to find a source for your last claim despite constantly harassing others about sources.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Re: Psychology as a whole- Do you buy it? [Re: skatealex2]
    #10288191 -

This is a pretty far-reaching question...

I don't think it's a matter of whether you "buy it" or not. I don't think the foundations of psychology as a "science" are sound at all, but it does use scientifically-derived techniques that really do work to help people. For a brief time I bought into the whole "brainwashing" thing that trippers and other hippies like to accuse the field of - but now I think this perspective misses the forest for the trees, working on the assumption that the modern lifestyle is maintained by antidepressants, when in fact, there are many well-adjusted modern folks who have never taken antidepressants. It also seems to assume that the entire field of psychology and psychiatry is controlled by an invisible cabal of ultra-capitalist oligarchs.

The whole question of whether mental illness is really an illness is entirely semantic. If I have a flu infection, saying "I'm sick" is just shorthand for saying "I'm experiencing a histamine reaction to an invasion by an influenza virus." If I'm too unhappy or anxious to drag myself out of bed every morning, I clearly need help, whether or not I want to use the word "illness" to describe the root cause.

I mean, without psychology, the only people left who professionally talk to people who are confused and unhappy are church folks.


--------------------
Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.


Edited by Tchan909 (05/05/09 01:45 AM)

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Re: Psychology as a whole- Do you buy it? [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #10288219 -

I think psychology is at best a semi-science, as Noteworthy said, but I don't blame the psychologists. They're doing the best they can with limited experimental techniques. They have to make do with crappy tools like subjective surveys because that's all they've got.

It's a bit better with established mental illnesses where we have animal models. We can test mice for depression ("depression-like behaviour") with a variety of tests, and watch them respond to treatment like exercise, antidepressants and ECT.

By the way, my job is to study the relationship between adult neurogenesis and depression, and I've done the animal tests many times.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Re: Psychology as a whole- Do you buy it? [Re: zouden]
    #10288260 -

zouden said:
I'm sorry, but you don't have a clue what you are talking about. I'm not even going to bother asking for a source for this particularly ridiculous claim, since you completely failed to find a source for your last claim despite constantly harassing others about sources.


If depression wasn't a mere an electric feeling, then ECT would simply not work. ECT is proof that depression is bullshit.  Most people only defend depression because they are depressed themselves and actually proud of their depression.

So tell me, what relationship have you found between neurogenesis and depression?

How do you explain love and laughter curing depression instantly?

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Re: Psychology as a whole- Do you buy it? [Re: Diaboleros]
    #10288301 -

Diaboleros said:
If depression wasn't a mere an electric feeling, then ECT would simply not work. ECT is proof that depression is bullshit.  Most people only defend depression because they are depressed themselves and actually proud of their depression.


Who's proud of depression? I'm sure many people are proud, perhaps, of having overcome depression, but that is quite reasonable because depression can be a debilitating struggle.


--------------------
Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.


Edited by Tchan909 (05/05/09 02:13 AM)

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Re: Psychology as a whole- Do you buy it? [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #10288390 -

i have overheard many a person exclaim with zeal that they are bipolar, have adhd or anxiety.
having a mental disorder makes people feel like they are different in a mysterious way, it confirms the suspicions that every single person has about thinking they view the world in some unique way.

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Re: Psychology as a whole- Do you buy it? [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #10288414 -

Tchan909 said:
Who's proud of depression? I'm sure many people are proud, perhaps, of having overcome depression, but that is quite reasonable because depression can be a debilitating struggle.


Who? I was, I'm talking out of personal experience, and I've learned it's the same for everyone else.

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Re: Psychology as a whole- Do you buy it? [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #10288432 -

Diaboleros said:
Who? I was, I'm talking out of personal experience, and I've learned it's the same for everyone else.


Thanks, my day felt lacking in a hefty dose of irony. :smirk:

YawningAnus said:
i have overheard many a person exclaim with zeal that they are bipolar, have adhd or anxiety.
having a mental disorder makes people feel like they are different in a mysterious way, it confirms the suspicions that every single person has about thinking they view the world in some unique way.


This is quite true. However, that fact doesn't exactly discount the reality of such "disorders" - it only serves to illuminate the underlying intentions of those who zealously proclaim their own mental illnesses.


--------------------
Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.


Edited by Tchan909 (05/05/09 03:19 AM)

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Re: Psychology as a whole- Do you buy it? [Re: Diaboleros]
    #10288477 -

Diaboleros said:
zouden said:
I'm sorry, but you don't have a clue what you are talking about. I'm not even going to bother asking for a source for this particularly ridiculous claim, since you completely failed to find a source for your last claim despite constantly harassing others about sources.


If depression wasn't a mere an electric feeling, then ECT would simply not work. ECT is proof that depression is bullshit.


Rofl. It's obvious you don't have any idea what ECT does, and I get the impression you're not interested in finding out. I've already posted here how it works.

 
Quote:
Most people only defend depression because they are depressed themselves and actually proud of their depression.


This is, without a doubt, the most retarded thing I have ever seen written on this website. Congratulations, sir.

Quote:
So tell me, what relationship have you found between neurogenesis and depression?


Personally? Very little. I've only been working in the field for less than two years. But I am pretty familiar with the field. I'll give you a head start... you know, teach you to fish.
http://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&lr=&q=neurogenesis+depression

Quote:
How do you explain love and laughter curing depression instantly?


Um, it doesn't? You know, depression isn't the same thing as being unhappy.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Re: Psychology as a whole- Do you buy it? [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #10288671 -

Using terms like "the best" and "the highest" has nothing to do with the practice itself, and I don't think anyone here in their right minds would actually fall for this kind of crap.
I don't know what you mean by saying that, because of how biased and subjective people's experiences are, psychology is not scientific.

People start having mental problems exactly though this subjective veil, and it's only natural that the resolution will be just as subjective. This doesn't mean that, for example, the cognitive methods applied don't work or that they haven't been discovered, tested, and have weighed in all kinds of researches and studies.
I wish I could find more info on that study, but I'm afraid I can't because it's a paid study and I'm not up to paying for it right now. However, all you'd see there would be subjective experiences and biased perceptions on negative and positive, since this is the object of the study. The observations of such a research are still valid, as they note what seems to work the most for the larger group of people, the smaller groups that seem to require different approaches, the most "difficult cases", and even that fragment of people on which nothing seems to work and the way their minds function is still a mystery.
What is being taken to account about all these groups is in which circumstances (the common experiences lived by the people in that group, how they happened, how those people are still reacting to these experiences, and the thoughts that are being produced right before one starts having negative emotions regarding a certain situation) the specific problem occurs, what differs from case to case, possibly along with the differences in approach.
Of course different people labeled as being depressed will react in different manners to different kinds of therapies, but that's only because of their unique characteristics, IQ, background, age, sex, ethnicity, level of education, etc.

Psychological studies are trying their best to take to consideration all these variables and approach the matter from different perspectives. The fact that some of these observation are less accurate when put in practice doesn't mean that psychology is bullshit or that it doesn't work - it probably means that a deeper and more accurate analysis is necessary.
Why not also focus on the successes achieved by psychology, and how many new working theories and practices are appearing?
It just seems that you're expecting to read objective and mathematical testimonies from people who claim that psychotherapy helped them, as a prove that there's science involved in it.

Quote:
how can you use terms such as "scored highest" or rating perceived bias without making pure value judgements that have no basis whatsoever other than an agreed upon social framework of action/reaction, sane/insane, acceptable/unacceptable behaviour?


Oh, I completely agree that there's still a long way to go, but I don't think that any rational psychologist/researcher has ever claimed that their findings are so correct that the social and cultural context doesn't matter.
The human mind changes and adapts to whatever the environment has to offer, so the psychological observations will partially involve these judgments of what's acceptable and not acceptable, moral and immoral, god and bad, but that's only because the social context IS part of our psyche, so it must be taken to account.
If people were to live like hermits, than I am more than sure that the view would have been "biased" from that perspective, and any form of a more advanced kind of socialization would have been labeled as abnormal and probably even a threat to one's mental stability.


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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Re: Psychology as a whole- Do you buy it? [Re: skatealex2]
    #10288817 -

Sure. I buy it.

Psychology attempts to describe and identify human behavior and the many reasons why it may or may not occur.  It works, because in a basic sense, the vast majority of us do share universal characteristics.  We all have ten finger, ten toes, eyes, brains etc.  It makes sense that in a broad sense, we all act the same way and for the same reasons.

This idea tends to frighten psychology naysayers.  Since birth people have been told "I'm special, I am unique, I'm different and my own individual".  Its a scary thought that we may act according to some universal set of rules.

On the other side we tend to have psychology naysayers who take a religious stance:  "The brain and consciousness are magical, are thoughts and reality simply CAN'T be the product of neurotransmitters".  What if in fact there were no *gasp* kingdom of heaven to look forward to.

Psychology touches on these very deep emotionally charged aspects.  This is why everyone has an opinion on it.


--------------------
...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge.  It is an indellible experience; it is forever known.  I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did.

Smith, P.  Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27.

...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely.

Osmond, H.  Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436

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Re: Psychology as a whole- Do you buy it? [Re: badchad]
    #10288836 -

Very well said. :thumbup:


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Re: Psychology as a whole- Do you buy it? [Re: zouden]
    #10289275 -

You guys need to actually read some thought outside your field.

Read almost any existential or deconstructive philosopher; Sartre,  Camus, Nietzsche, Derrida, Foucault... None of them at all religious, but somehow they were skeptical just as I am.

This is not an argument, I am just pointing out that as usual, you are overgeneralizing whatever is critical of your field as "religious".

Thats all I wanted to specifically address to that point.

Hopefully this is not off topic, but I think our past disagreements underlay the more current issue at hand. I believe we disagree on what a "natural science" is, so I am going to take a step back and redress that.

I believe you misunderstand what science actually is, because you are so far entrenched in it. How contentious of me, this is not even my field. Well I forget who, but someone once said "I don't know who discovered water, but it certainly wasn't the fishes," This is my appeal:

Take for instance your comment in another thread, that "responsibility lies in the scientist, not the science". What does this really mean?

What you are doing, is attempting to separate the ostensibly abstract (pure) element of science from the human element, no?

But science does not actually exist (function) as an abstract or pure process. That is why it is commonly held as at least one step away from mathematics or logic. While you may reasonably make an appeal to the rationality or mechanism of most the steps of the scientific method, (in that extension reasonably appealing to nature) in the end there is no life to science without the bare, arbitrary impulse that the scientist must bring. Your metaphysics are unrealistic, because the bias of the scientist is necessary to launch the scientific process by his hypothesis.

Say whatever you will of the implications, I would not deny the great extent that science may reflect nature in abstract,  but my point is simply that there is always an amount of technological (humane-scientific) bias to this effectiveness.

In other words, hypothesis is the art of science.

In short, art is artifice, which is of strict contrast of naturalism. In respect to this virtue (of art), the pure mechanistic glory of science finds its roots in "human" just as it does "nature".

I am not indicating that these are anything other than abstract qualities; nor am I myself positing them. Its not a moral argument, and I am not attempting to substantiate, or obligate you to any responsibility, other than what you have already given attention to yourself. I am saying that you posit this duality in bad faith, (calling attention to science and scientists); so as to appear responsible (as a scientist), but also to divert that responsibility (in your function that is science).

Because there is actually no separation; the science is the scientist, and vice-versa, I understand this metaphysical seperation as a trick to manipulate humanistic implications as they happen to arise.

Again, the degrees of balance between human and nature, where or how the line is drawn, is not the concern of my argument. But to the extent that you hint of any responsibility for this field (or that you do draw a line), I am pointing out that there is no way of separating the overall usefulness (science) from that value. So long as it is on your mind, value will always be riding shotgun to use. It is always use-value.

What you are doing is typical of metaphysicians. This is why I find it absurd that you tend to lump all contrasting thought  into "what opposes science" whether it is someone like myself, the ever platonic Mr Mushrooms, or your idea of the religious.

This is not an appeal to religion, but to the human responsibility of any human effectiveness, that is use-value. Actually I believe you(or science, as you have it) are guilty of bad faith, when you divert these human responsibilities in a naturalistic appeal.

There can only be one reason for you to separate the science from the scientist; and that is to draw out these metaphysical relations and somewhere along the line obviate the responsibilities of pragmatism. Why else would you attempt to make such a distinction, why else claim to any outsider any notion of "purity" in science?


--------------------
Beware the Jabberwock, my son!
  The jaws that bite, the claws that catch!
Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun
  The frumious Bandersnatch!

Edited by daytripper23 (05/05/09 10:58 PM)

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General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
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