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OfflineKalix
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Psychology and Dogma in General as Bunk
    #4300713 - 06/15/05 07:59 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Psychoanalysis is an attempt to examine a person's self-justifications. Hence it can be undertaken only with the patient's cooperation and can succeed only when the patient has something to gain by abandoning or modifying his system of self-justification. -Thomas Szasz


I myself spent nine years in an insane asylum and I never had the obsession of suicide, but I know that each conversation with a psychiatrist, every morning at the time of his visit, made me want to hang myself, realizing that I would not be able to cut his throat.
Antonin Artaud

Narcissist: psychoanalytic term for the person who loves himself more than his analyst; considered to be the manifestation of a dire mental disease whose successful treatment depends on the patient learning to love the analyst more and himself less.
Thomas Szasz


Personally, I feel as though psychology is a product of a society that has no respect for the transcendental. Our culture only allows for one aspect of the transcendental, God himself, who is unattainable to the common layperson as s/he exists naturally. To be close to god according to prevalent American, and Western dogma, a person must not indulge in any natural, and fulfilling pursuits, such as Sexual Fulfillment, or experiments with consciousness altering substances.
This leaves a deep feeling of lack, in our culture, one that people try to fill with unhealthy behavior, that in a way is a self-destructive rebellion against our un-bending dogma. From over-eating, to sex and drug addiction, we as a people have forgotten the importance of spiritually integrating the psychedelic experience..

That very experience which is the only thing that could keep us sane, in this hell we are busily creating, and unhappily existing within..

Thoughts, comments?


--------------------


My Unitarian Jihad Name is: The Shotgun of Sweet Reason


Edited by Kalix (06/15/05 08:23 PM)


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OfflineDroz
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Re: Psychology as bunk [Re: Kalix]
    #4300794 - 06/15/05 08:25 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

I was awakened by a psychedelic experience that only led them to call me insane and lock me up in a sane asylum. I also feel i have had plenty of experiences after that high dosage of mushrooms that keeps me going to this very day. Yet still they keep me on anti-psychotics. I'll have the day when i am aloud to leave the medicine behind and journey on a knew foot back into the psychedelic experience.

Peace,
Droz


--------------------
Evolution of Time.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Psychology as bunk [Re: Kalix]
    #4300798 - 06/15/05 08:27 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

I won't defend psychologists as a whole. Probably 90% or more suck and do more harm than good. But I wouldn't throw the baby out with the bath water.

And I agree with much of your post. Not everyone may benefit from the psychedelic experience. My guess though is that most would if there was more support and a proper framework for the use of these plants, ect.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineKalix
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Re: Psychology as bunk [Re: Icelander]
    #4300847 - 06/15/05 08:39 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
I won't defend psychologists as a whole. Probably 90% or more suck and do more harm than good. But I wouldn't throw the baby out with the bath water.

And I agree with much of your post. Not everyone may benefit from the psychedelic experience. My guess though is that most would if there was more support and a proper framework for the use of these plants, etc.




That is the basis of my rant. Our culture is lacking in just that; a lack of cultural/shamanic framework to help utilize direct contact with the transcendental. It need not be psychedelic, per se, but the very act of being non-traditionally spiritually awakened is frowned at, by most. The way the people that rule this country's, dogmatic iron-fisted Christianity is headed, I could see witch-hunts being brought back en-vogue, at least long before Grof's idealistic, Utopian view of shamanistic ritual that involves anyone interested, in high school gymnasiums no less..
i just involve psychedelics in this, because they are the truest, and quickest doorway to the divine that we, as a culture, or people have at our disposal. In McKenna's words 'You can sweep around the Ashram 'til hell freezes over, but it won't teach you what you can learn from 5 dry grams...'


--------------------


My Unitarian Jihad Name is: The Shotgun of Sweet Reason


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OfflineKalix
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Re: Psychology as bunk [Re: Droz]
    #4300945 - 06/15/05 09:02 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Droz said:
I was awakened by a psychedelic experience that only led them to call me insane and lock me up in a sane asylum. I also feel i have had plenty of experiences after that high dosage of mushrooms that keeps me going to this very day. Yet still they keep me on anti-psychotics. I'll have the day when i am aloud to leave the medicine behind and journey on a knew foot back into the psychedelic experience.

Peace,
Droz




  Good luck bro! I think it's abhorrent, how the mental health industry capitalizes on the sanest of us, ie people who have had seriously intense trips, or have levels of awareness that extend beyond a 'normal' spectrum. :peace: and my prayers are with you!


--------------------


My Unitarian Jihad Name is: The Shotgun of Sweet Reason


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: Psychology and Dogma in General as Bunk [Re: Kalix]
    #4301009 - 06/15/05 09:19 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Society has no respect for transcendental because in general it has not encountered anything transcendental. So the question is, what should the society in general have respect for? As for now there is nothing to be respected or disrespected exept some old books


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: Psychology as bunk [Re: Icelander]
    #4301015 - 06/15/05 09:21 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

And how are they supose to benefit from psychadelics? In what way?


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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OfflineKalix
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Re: Psychology and Dogma in General as Bunk [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4301019 - 06/15/05 09:22 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

OldWoodSpecter said:
Society has no respect for transcendental because in general it has not encountered anything transcendental. So the question is, what should the society in general have respect for? As for now there is nothing to be respected or disrespected exept some old books




Why then does society have so much regard for biblical scripture?? Has it encountered the biblical version of god? Why should a country that was founded on the freedom of religion not embrace a tribal form of shamanism with arms as open as the arms it embraced puritanical christianity with?


--------------------


My Unitarian Jihad Name is: The Shotgun of Sweet Reason


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Psychology as bunk [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4301034 - 06/15/05 09:28 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

OldWoodSpecter said:
And how are they supose to benefit from psychadelics? In what way?




In the way that I have I guess. :mushroom2: Read some Stanislav Grof. Maybe, The Adventure of Self-Discovery. Then you will have some knowledge of how psychedelics can help. :thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: Psychology and Dogma in General as Bunk [Re: Kalix]
    #4301036 - 06/15/05 09:28 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

well obviously christianity has been deeply conditioned into the society, so they aren't even aware of what they believe in


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: Psychology as bunk [Re: Icelander]
    #4301045 - 06/15/05 09:30 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

You know, the way I see it, from experience, is that with drugs you only find yourself as you are. IF you have been a violent jerk, you will be a stoned violent jerk.

I've met a lot of people who consume psychadelics and it has only confirmed them the way they were before it.


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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OfflineKalix
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Re: Psychology and Dogma in General as Bunk [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4301055 - 06/15/05 09:32 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

So how to raise awareness, if the only tried and true method is a sure way to net some long years behind bars?


--------------------


My Unitarian Jihad Name is: The Shotgun of Sweet Reason


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Psychology as bunk [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4301059 - 06/15/05 09:34 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

OldWoodSpecter said:
You know, the way I see it, from experience, is that with drugs you only find yourself as you are. IF you have been a violent jerk, you will be a stoned violent jerk.

I've met a lot of people who consume psychadelics and it has only confirmed them the way they were before it.




Were these people using them in a Shamanic framework or just taking some little dose and going out to party? Big difference. Read the book.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: Psychology and Dogma in General as Bunk [Re: Kalix]
    #4301070 - 06/15/05 09:37 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

I still can't understand this mystification of psychadelics. People talk like it is some destiny that humans found the psychadelics and that it's going to lead into a new era of enlightenment.

Newsflash, they did find it, and it lead them into 70's, that's all  :smirk:

Awareness is the quantity and organization of information that you gather from your surrounding reality. You have your brain, your eyes and ears to collect information and thus expand awareness by making sense of it.


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: Psychology as bunk [Re: Icelander]
    #4301079 - 06/15/05 09:40 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

don't you see, searching for such methods before you take drugs is a sign that you are not one of those shalow consumers, so again drugs will confirm that which you started looking for.

For your idea to be true, one would have to search for a simple party pleasure and end up enlightened, which would indicated transformation due to psychadelics.


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Psychology as bunk [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4301085 - 06/15/05 09:42 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

OldWoodSpecter said:
don't you see, searching for such methods before you take drugs is a sign that you are not one of those shalow consumers, so again drugs will confirm that which you started looking for.

For your idea to be true, one would have to search for a simple party pleasure and end up enlightened, which would indicated transformation due to psychadelics.




Maybe. Psychedelics are but a tool. Not a goal. I don't really need to know if they will change others. I am only in charge of myself.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineKalix
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Re: Psychology and Dogma in General as Bunk [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4301182 - 06/15/05 10:16 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

OldWoodSpecter said:
I still can't understand this mystification of psychadelics. People talk like it is some destiny that humans found the psychadelics and that it's going to lead into a new era of enlightenment.

Newsflash, they did find it, and it lead them into 70's, that's all  :smirk:

Awareness is the quantity and organization of information that you gather from your surrounding reality. You have your brain, your eyes and ears to collect information and thus expand awareness by making sense of it.




  The first time white ppl came into contact with psychedelics was 1560, a Franciscan friar, friar Sahagun wrote about Peyote. At least that is the first record of it. (That I know of). Psychedelics are not going to lead us into anything. They just hone individuality into being a collective ideal, instead of a materialistic greed. If you are a violent asshole, and you get stoned on psychedelics, you're ego will cling desperately to the petty individual you see yourself as, and a fight will certainly ensue.. My point is that with the integration of the psychedelic experience comes a deeper sense of peace, when the knowledge of the petty nature of the ego sinks in, personal spiritual growth is inevitable.. I have to agree with Icelander, you should read a book by Stanislav Grof! It might demystify a little bit of this idea of spirituality's' link to entheogens


--------------------


My Unitarian Jihad Name is: The Shotgun of Sweet Reason


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: Psychology and Dogma in General as Bunk [Re: Kalix]
    #4301192 - 06/15/05 10:19 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

My point is that if you seek enlightenment with psychadelics you are already on the path of enlightenment (I can't believ I'm using these wods, I'm so against the use of those words) so nothing really changes, it only speeds up the process.

In which case, psychadelics can serve as catalizators only. If you don't have peace in yourself, you wont find it after using drugs either.


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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OfflineKalix
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Re: Psychology and Dogma in General as Bunk [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4301216 - 06/15/05 10:26 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

OldWoodSpecter said:
My point is that if you seek enlightenment with psychadelics you are already on the path of enlightenment (I can't believ I'm using these wods, I'm so against the use of those words) so nothing really changes, it only speeds up the process.

In which case, psychadelics can serve as catalizators only. If you don't have peace in yourself, you wont find it after using drugs either.




There are age old techniques which enable psychadelics to catalize spiritual growth. Like for instance, just taking them, in a setting that promotes introspection. Such as by yourself, with no music, or T.V. to distract you.


--------------------


My Unitarian Jihad Name is: The Shotgun of Sweet Reason


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Psychology as bunk [Re: Kalix]
    #4301218 - 06/15/05 10:26 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Our culture is lacking in just that; a lack of cultural/shamanic framework to help utilize direct contact with the transcendental.

Yes! Sweet grass and drums and rattles are very healing.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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