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Re: McKennas philosophy on the nature of time [Re: Cognitive_Shift]
    #9645788 -

Quote:
These hunter gatherer people understand that this is how human being operates.  It cares for earth and all of its inhabitants


Is that why they wage war on each other just as so-called less enlightened men do?


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Re: McKennas philosophy on the nature of time [Re: Cognitive_Shift]
    #9645810 -

I agree.

Where did the native's learn to make ayahuasca. The plants told them.

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Re: McKennas philosophy on the nature of time [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9645823 -

Amazonian hunter gatherer tribes wage war on people?

Please give me a source that indicates hunter gather tribes are raging war with one another.  Specifically in south america like i mentioned.  The war in africa is not from hunter gatherer tribes.  Have you ever been to africa?  Its not all jungles and people in loin clothes.


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L'enfer est plein de bonnes volontés et désirs

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Re: McKennas philosophy on the nature of time [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9645825 -

OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:
These hunter gatherer people understand that this is how human being operates.  It cares for earth and all of its inhabitants


Is that why they wage war on each other just as so-called less enlightened men do?

So now war should be solved by shamanism?

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Re: McKennas philosophy on the nature of time [Re: Indigenous]
    #9645838 -

Quote:
Where did the native's learn to make ayahuasca. The plants told them.


Which plants told them?


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Re: McKennas philosophy on the nature of time [Re: Indigenous]
    #9645845 -

Indigenous said:
I agree.

Where did the native's learn to make ayahuasca. The plants told them.


They live in an environment where there are 10,000 different plant species with in a square mile.  And they figured out that when you make a brew of plants (which are not psychoactive by them selves) with such and such a plant.  Its truly amazing that they learned to make ayahuasca.


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L'enfer est plein de bonnes volontés et désirs

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Re: McKennas philosophy on the nature of time [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9645850 -

The ones over by the big rock.

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Re: McKennas philosophy on the nature of time [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9645871 -

OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:
These hunter gatherer people understand that this is how human being operates.  It cares for earth and all of its inhabitants


Is that why they wage war on each other just as so-called less enlightened men do?


"wage war" :rofl2:  Dude look at the western world, the united states.  The western world "the so called smartest and best" society by the people that belong to it are waging more war than anyone else.


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L'enfer est plein de bonnes volontés et désirs

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Re: McKennas philosophy on the nature of time [Re: Cognitive_Shift]
    #9645890 -

Who says shamans are enlightened? They do specific jobs, just like all other professions.

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Re: McKennas philosophy on the nature of time [Re: Indigenous]
    #9645939 -

Indigenous said:
Who says shamans are enlightened? They do specific jobs, just like all other professions.


Agreed, no one is saying they are enlightened.  They just play a role in their society.  It doesn't cost money or anything, their society operates on the good of the people.  Which is the way it is supposed to be.  You can say that people sell you things to help you out, make your life easier, to benefit you.  They don't give a fuck about you, they care about your money.  I personally think that humans were supposed to live in communities no larger than 200.  Over population has lead to a bunch of problems from scarcity, crime ect ect.


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L'enfer est plein de bonnes volontés et désirs

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Re: McKennas philosophy on the nature of time [Re: Cognitive_Shift]
    #9645984 -

1. The Industrial Revolution and its consequences have been a disaster for the human race. They have greatly increased the life-expectancy of those of us who live in "advanced" countries, but they have destabilized society, have made life unfulfilling, have subjected human beings to indignities, have led to widespread psychological suffering (in the Third World to physical suffering as well) and have inflicted severe damage on the natural world. The continued development of technology will worsen the situation. It will certainly subject human beings to greater indignities and inflict greater damage on the natural world, it will probably lead to greater social disruption and psychological suffering, and it may lead to increased physical suffering even in "advanced" countries.

Ted Kaczynski
http://www.ed.brocku.ca/~rahul/Misc/unibomber.html

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Re: McKennas philosophy on the nature of time [Re: Indigenous]
    #9646003 -

Indigenous said:
The ones over by the big rock.


That's OK. I knew ahead of time that you were parroting a myth with no evidence.

I think even you realize that non-mind-altering plants did not tell them where the mind altering plants were or how to concoct them. If that were true, then the first plant would be all the power they needed. This logic is just too basic.


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Edited by OrgoneConclusion (01/20/09 02:11 PM)

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Re: McKennas philosophy on the nature of time [Re: Indigenous]
    #9646020 -

Indigenous said:
1. The Industrial Revolution and its consequences have been a disaster for the human race. They have greatly increased the life-expectancy of those of us who live in "advanced" countries, but they have destabilized society, have made life unfulfilling, have subjected human beings to indignities, have led to widespread psychological suffering (in the Third World to physical suffering as well) and have inflicted severe damage on the natural world. The continued development of technology will worsen the situation. It will certainly subject human beings to greater indignities and inflict greater damage on the natural world, it will probably lead to greater social disruption and psychological suffering, and it may lead to increased physical suffering even in "advanced" countries.

Ted Kaczynski
http://www.ed.brocku.ca/~rahul/Misc/unibomber.html



Cool, glad to see people read his article on Industrial Society and Its Future.  The quote in my signature on freedom is from his essay.


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L'enfer est plein de bonnes volontés et désirs

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Re: McKennas philosophy on the nature of time [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9646052 -

OrgoneConclusion said:
Indigenous said:
The ones over by the big rock.


That's OK. I knew ahead of time that you were parroting a myth with no evidence.

I think even you realize that non-mind altering plants did not tell them where the mind altering plants were or how to concot them. If that were true, then the first plant would be all the power they needed. This logic is just too basic.


So how many myths do you parrot that you learned from books? What makes it a myth? Have you recreated every science experiment ever done. Do you have faith that these books contain truth.

So you think that you are capable of deciding what a higher being would teach a human, in what order, for what purpose. Maybe you should learn about the topic you are trying to debate. Shamans say that many plants have told them things.

Reminds me of the guy who said "If God wrote the Bible it would have information about quantum physics in it". Of all the audacity to presume that you would know the intentions of a higher being.

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Re: McKennas philosophy on the nature of time [Re: Indigenous]
    #9646218 -

Do you really think there has been more suffering since the Industrial Revolution. What is the difference between tribal and big business politics. This socialist view is myopic and juvenile.

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Re: McKennas philosophy on the nature of time [Re: Indigenous]
    #9646249 -

Nice dodge. I was pretty clear as always.

Someone ate a non-psychedelic plant that told them about psychedelic plants is your belief and that makes sense to you?

Do you think you or anyone you know could personally replicate this?


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Re: McKennas philosophy on the nature of time [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9646284 -

OrgoneConclusion said:
Nice dodge. I was pretty clear as always.



You are always clear, just ask you.

Quote:
Someone ate a non-psychedelic plant that told them about psychedelic plants is your belief and that makes sense to you?



I never said they ate the plants before the plants told them. Communication is possible without ingesting psychedelics. It is much easier with psychedelics.

Quote:
Do you think you or anyone you know could personally replicate this?


Yes.

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Re: McKennas philosophy on the nature of time [Re: Indigenous]
    #9647003 -

There are two contradicting philosophies, they concern what is within and without. (or matrix philosophy)

OC says that doing mushrooms is like entering the matrix; or the "mushroom world" is an intrinsic part of the "real world". His evidence, is that you can tape record the experience, and see someone drooling on himself, rather than a person transcending.

By the way, this is always his evidence, and most people agree that it makes sense. He posits a real and absolute world that is based on materialism. This is verified in what is referred to as scientific evidence.

Even though OC posits evidence, it is only significant inasmuch as his reality is concrete. As it is, this is all just something that is evident to the senses. This is what evidence is, and it was only the conventions society that have convinced people that it is anything more than this. Evidence is merely evident ok, it doesn't matter how many peer reviews you get.

I Might as well mention that substantial is exactly the same; it is nothing more than a dualism of being sensations. All this suggests, is something in a matrix (substance conventionally refers to what can be touched). It can be particularly useful because it is physical, but it does not follow that this is absolute truth. Thats why it is called substance, and not truth.

It is additional presumptions concerning words like this, that make someone close-minded. 

A causation cannot demonstrate any truth, without relying on the presumptions of a real world. Without a matrix (framework, consensus, "reality"), causal relations are just hallucinations without context. But without a causal "picture", (evidence) there can be no idea of a framework, no reality, or no matrix.

So in a single phrase a causation informs a matrix, and a matrix creates the necessary space for these ideas of causation. Science does not "prove" reality, and reality does not prove science. Leaning one against the other, we have this magnificent structure, consensual reality. Taking this structure to be truth, or reality though, is idol worship, in its most dogmatic sense.

So remember, evidence is just what is evident, and substance is just matter. Oh and what matters, or is material, is just another conventional phrase as well. Materialism as a basis for the absolute is a philosophical presumption, and shamanism is a step back from this.

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Re: McKennas philosophy on the nature of time [Re: AnxietyDrive]
    #9647205 -

Quote:
First off, tribal Shamans were generally never "self-proclaimed" like most of our modern "New Age" gurus, but were instead picked or chosen by coincidence; for instance, in Siberian shamanic initiation the would-be shaman is granted his position more often spontaneously through a spiritual crisis or by an accident. In some tribal cultures the ability to shamanize is inherited; thus the ability to cure the sick, find out where the game has gone, and locate lost objects was passed to him from the generation beforehand. Generally, shamanic initiation varies subtly from tribe to tribe, and from location to location, but is seldom ever self-chosen; in the least, the shaman is elected by the tribe.

We have trouble understanding shamanism because of our cultural milieu; what appears to us as epilepsy, or worse, schizophrenia, is with the shaman a natural initiatory sickness comprised of a metaphorical death and resurrection. An onlooker may see the would-be shaman as absentminded, hysterical, or as completely mad, but in reality the shaman is undergoing spiritual transformation and divine ecstasy.

The main difference between the shaman and the mentally ill, Eliade points out, is the shamans ability to undergo ecstatic experiences and trance states at will. He discusses the details concerning Siberian and Arctic shamanism and their relationship to mental illness, and sums it up as follows: "Whether they still are or are not subject to real attacks of epilepsy or hysteria, shamans, sorcerers, and medicine men in general cannot be regarded as merely sick; their psychopathic experience has theoretical content".

This theoretical content Eliade speaks of deals with a coherent and complex set of spiritual mythology that focuses on the whole tribe, not just the shaman; helper spirits, gemstones, gods, devils, and worlds are all involved in the practice of shamanism.

That is the best summation i can give for now, but hopefully i can clear up any questions on the phenomenon as we discuss the topic in more depth.


This is addressed to AnxietyDrive, and anyone who is seriously interested in shamanism. I only mention this as a disclaimer, because my use of words is going to be a bit different than my last post, because I don't have to appeal to the viewpoint of absolutes.

So anyways,

Do you think it is necessary to describe it as so much of a cultural phenomenon? I can see why you describe it this way, but this is just a cultural precaution isn't it? That is, it cannot be described to a "typical westerner" in any other way. Its not that I don't appreciate the information; I am just wondering if it is something that necessarily comes with any use of the word. What I am wondering, is it possible to describe shamanism based simply on its function? 

Shamanism, as far as I have concerned myself, is just a word of choice to describe what I am doing when I eat mushrooms. As distinguished from the idea of seeing these hallucinations as mere hallucinations, I see them as an image, and possibly useful.

If there was a better word, one that didn't carry the cultural baggage, I would use it. As an existential tool mushrooms can be actively described as psychedelic, but there is no word for what I am doing, no "ism". People have taken it to an extreme, like the church of mushroom, but like all movements, an existential rigor reveals it as a blatant appeal for an "ism". The word to describe this function has already existed for a while though, and it is shamanism.

Why is it necessary to hark back to cultural baggage?

Is it because that was the only time and place where it was socially acceptable? I think this is a large part of it. Isn't it crazy how social conventions actually effect our language? There is no word for what I am doing with mushrooms, but only for the reason that it is not formally accepted by society. This is absurd. At the same time though, this might be understood as the most upstanding existential integrity.

The idea of shamanism being a social role as you describe it, is pragmatic as well. The question is how seriously we consider these pragmatic implications. A person is only a shaman as he exists in the world for non-shamans; there is a certain truth to this, right? (So unless I am somehow communicating these shamanic values, I am otherwise not shamanic? Is there no intrinsic shamanic approach?) Well it is when this ideal is inevitably realized, that the language actually simulates substance.

I find it interesting that the shamans were "chosen" in this way that you describe. What you are saying, is that it is not formal. Reflected in our own increasingly political correct world, this idea of formalty functions interchangeably with what is explicit. Such as it is, there is no explicit word for what I do from time to time. I can make a colloquial reference, but there actually no explicit statement to describe this!

Perhaps this is what is great about mushrooms, they truly failed to cause a social movement that could be called anything more appealing than hippys. No ism; all we get are damned hippies. This is very  existential, even more than existentialism, itself. (An essential description of existentialism, or an ism, is contradictory to existentialism)

But at the same time, if we could just get a verified ism, then we could probably do what we want with our mushrooms. Logically, all that there would have to be is an ism, and sooner or later someone would create a church, and then legalization would at least be subject to debate. As it is though, shamanism is not what I am doing, and there is no word to describe it. Absurd as it is, the lack of a better word is one of the main reasons it is illegal.

Just some thoughts.

Edited by daytripper23 (01/20/09 06:55 PM)

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Re: McKennas philosophy on the nature of time [Re: daytripper23]
    #9647245 -

I don't really know what you said. If you look at materialism and shamanism as two philosophies. Shamanism would see the materialistic world and spirit world each as a subset of a larger picture. Materialism doesn't acknowledge the spirit world because it relies on data that is collected by a method that cannot detect it.

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