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Shop: Myyco.com Isolated Cubensis Liquid Culture For Sale   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Re: McKennas philosophy on the nature of time [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9643215 -

First off, tribal Shamans were generally never "self-proclaimed" like most of our modern "New Age" gurus, but were instead picked or chosen by coincidence; for instance, in Siberian shamanic initiation the would-be shaman is granted his position more often spontaneously through a spiritual crisis or by an accident. In some tribal cultures the ability to shamanize is inherited; thus the ability to cure the sick, find out where the game has gone, and locate lost objects was passed to him from the generation beforehand. Generally, shamanic initiation varies subtly from tribe to tribe, and from location to location, but is seldom ever self-chosen; in the least, the shaman is elected by the tribe.

We have trouble understanding shamanism because of our cultural milieu; what appears to us as epilepsy, or worse, schizophrenia, is with the shaman a natural initiatory sickness comprised of a metaphorical death and resurrection. An onlooker may see the would-be shaman as absentminded, hysterical, or as completely mad, but in reality the shaman is undergoing spiritual transformation and divine ecstasy.

The main difference between the shaman and the mentally ill, Eliade points out, is the shamans ability to undergo ecstatic experiences and trance states at will. He discusses the details concerning Siberian and Arctic shamanism and their relationship to mental illness, and sums it up as follows: "Whether they still are or are not subject to real attacks of epilepsy or hysteria, shamans, sorcerers, and medicine men in general cannot be regarded as merely sick; their psychopathic experience has theoretical content".

This theoretical content Eliade speaks of deals with a coherent and complex set of spiritual mythology that focuses on the whole tribe, not just the shaman; helper spirits, gemstones, gods, devils, and worlds are all involved in the practice of shamanism.

That is the best summation i can give for now, but hopefully i can clear up any questions on the phenomenon as we discuss the topic in more depth.


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Re: McKennas philosophy on the nature of time [Re: AnxietyDrive]
    #9645232 -

Quote:
We have trouble understanding shamanism because of our cultural milieu


I have trouble understanding it soley because it doesn't work. Africa probably has more shamans than any other continent and is being decimated by war, famine, AIDs and other deadly diseases.


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Re: McKennas philosophy on the nature of time [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9645280 -

OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:
We have trouble understanding shamanism because of our cultural milieu


I have trouble understanding it soley because it doesn't work. Africa probably has more shamans than any other continent and is being decimated by war, famine, AIDs and other deadly diseases.


What does Shamanism have to do with disease? No one said life was easy and I certainly never said science was not beneficial if that is what you are implying sir. 

Actually South America and Siberia probably have the most tried and true shamanic institutions and methodology, but you are correct, Africa fits the mold as well. Point being, shamanism is a global phenomenon and is not relegated only to the most impoverished, war torn, and disease ridden places on the globe.


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Re: McKennas philosophy on the nature of time [Re: AnxietyDrive]
    #9645300 -

Quote:
the most tried and true shamanic institutions


A tried and true institution does not make sense. Do you mean their practices have real-world validity or not? If so, in what way? Please be specific.


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Re: McKennas philosophy on the nature of time [Re: AnxietyDrive]
    #9645344 -

AnxietyDrive said:
OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:
We have trouble understanding shamanism because of our cultural milieu


I have trouble understanding it soley because it doesn't work. Africa probably has more shamans than any other continent and is being decimated by war, famine, AIDs and other deadly diseases.


What does Shamanism have to do with disease? No one said life was easy and I certainly never said science was not beneficial if that is what you are implying sir. 

Actually South America and Siberia probably have the most tried and true shamanic institutions and methodology, but you are correct, Africa fits the mold as well. Point being, shamanism is a global phenomenon and is not relegated only to the most impoverished, war torn, and disease ridden places on the globe.


I would have to agree. You are obviously misunderstanding the purpose of shamanism. The problems in africa are mostly due to poverty. Shamanism doesn't cure poverty.

IMO shamanism is the first way that higher beings contacted humans. They related to humans in a manner that was appropriate for the develpmental status of the culture.

Is it not odd that almost all indigenous cultures have independently developed a form of shamanism. West African, Native Americans, Australian Aboriginies, South American Indians, Mexican Indians, Siberian, Eskimo, even the egyptians all practiced shamanism. I am sure there are more, that is just going off the top of my head.

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Re: McKennas philosophy on the nature of time [Re: Indigenous]
    #9645358 -

Quote:
Shamanism doesn't cure poverty.


Shamanism doesn't cure anything at all - that is the point. Higher beings are pure imagination.


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Re: McKennas philosophy on the nature of time [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9645359 -

OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:
the most tried and true shamanic institutions


A tried and true institution does not make sense. Do you mean their practices have real-world validity or not? If so, in what way? Please be specific.


Quote:
In some tribal cultures the ability to shamanize is inherited; thus the ability to cure the sick, find out where the game has gone, and locate lost objects was passed to him from the generation beforehand.


Please finish reading my post beforehand.

Tried and true means that it works for the tribe.
In other words, scientific methods are as logical to us, as shamanizing is to the tribe.

It is a difference in culture, as well as, the power of belief.


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Edited by AnxietyDrive (01/20/09 02:04 PM)

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Re: McKennas philosophy on the nature of time [Re: AnxietyDrive]
    #9645405 -

I did read your post. Making blanket declarations means nothing at all. Let's look deeper:

1. thus the ability to cure the sick - great! Aids, cholera, malaria, diphtheria, diarrhea are no longer problematic for tribal cultures.

2. find out where the game has gone - and famine is not an issue.

3. and locate lost objects - yeah, whatever. No evidence for such power.


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Re: McKennas philosophy on the nature of time [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9645417 -

OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:
Shamanism doesn't cure poverty.


Shamanism doesn't cure anything at all - that is the point. Higher beings are pure imagination.


Under your philosophy of scientific skepticism, things that cannot be verified by your rules of evidence do not exist. Your Scientific method doesn't produce the ultimate truth. You throw out all previous beliefs and inch your way forward until you reach the limitations of your methodology. What do you do at the point your method can no longer produce new data?

I have had experience with higher beings. I do not need anything or anyone to verify this.

No one will ever believe in God until he has first hand experience.

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Re: McKennas philosophy on the nature of time [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9645436 -

OrgoneConclusion said:
I did read your post. Making blanket declarations means nothing at all. Let's look deeper:

1. thus the ability to cure the sick - great! Aids, cholera, malaria, diphtheria, diarrhea are no longer problematic for tribal cultures.

2. find out where the game has gone - and famine is not an issue.

3. and locate lost objects - yeah, whatever. No evidence for such power.


No statement made that shamanism is the cure for all disease.
Game that doesn't exist cannot be found. Why don't helicopters find the game? Drought would most likely be a major cause of famine.
Lost objects - no evidence that such a power doesn't exist.

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Re: McKennas philosophy on the nature of time [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9645437 -

OrgoneConclusion said:
I did read your post. Making blanket declarations means nothing at all. Let's look deeper:

1. thus the ability to cure the sick - great! Aids, cholera, malaria, diphtheria, diarrhea are no longer problematic for tribal cultures.

2. find out where the game has gone - and famine is not an issue.

3. and locate lost objects - yeah, whatever. No evidence for such power.


Okay, lets think harder.

Whether your personal belief permits it or not, these are the facts sitting behind archaic and modern shamanism.

1. You cannot cure everything, but for sure, you can find out who is going to live and who is going to die. Shamans acted as medicine men as well as diviners. It is likely that they produced miracles unheard of by Western Civilization. Your knowledge of Shamanism seems very lacking. 

2. Famine is not a problem everywhere -- again, your focusing on certain tribes -- i repeat shamanism is a global phenomenon and famine is not always, at all places an issue.

3. You said before your vision can become close to microscopic while on LSD, if that is so, why not this other stuff?


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Re: McKennas philosophy on the nature of time [Re: Indigenous]
    #9645482 -

Quote:
Under your philosophy of scientific skepticism, things that cannot be verified by your rules of evidence do not exist.


Scientific skepticism? It doesn't take a particular mindset to witness death.

OK, I get it. All of the tribal third-worlders who die young of such diseases as I listed have actually been 'cured'. I applaud your 'logic'. :congrats:


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Re: McKennas philosophy on the nature of time [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9645507 -

Since you are not going to put on your listening ears, I see no point in playing.

SHAMANISM CAN'T CURE ALL DISEASE!!!!!!!

Why don't you just say no one would have ever died if shamanism was real.

Edited by Indigenous (01/20/09 02:40 PM)

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Re: McKennas philosophy on the nature of time [Re: AnxietyDrive]
    #9645585 -

Quote:
You said before your vision can become close to microscopic while on LSD, if that is so, why not this other stuff?


Is this an honest question? One's pupils are many times larger on LSD permitting more light, thus greater visual acuity. This is fairly straight-forward and requires no mystical explanation.

Every psychic or ESPer or dowser ever tested under controlled circumstances has failed miserable, so all we have left are unsubstantiated stories.


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Re: McKennas philosophy on the nature of time [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9645606 -

OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:
You said before your vision can become close to microscopic while on LSD, if that is so, why not this other stuff?


Is this an honest question? One's pupils are many times larger on LSD permitting more light, thus greater visual acuity. This is fairly straight-forward and requires no mystical explanation.

Every psychic or ESPer or dowser ever tested under controlled circumstances has failed miserable, so all we have left are unsubstantiated stories.


"controlled circumstances"

In real life nothing ever happens under the title "controlled circumstances."


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No trees were harmed in the writing of this signature; however, millions of electrons were mildly inconvenienced.

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Re: McKennas philosophy on the nature of time [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9645616 -

Using Africa's problems as proof that shamanism isn't real is really absurd. Africa's suffers from poverty, famine, poor education, poor sanitation, poor nutrition, drought, unprotected sex. You also do not have statistics on how many of these people sought the help of a shaman.

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Re: McKennas philosophy on the nature of time [Re: Indigenous]
    #9645636 -

Visual acuity is decreased with pupil dilation.

http://pubs.nrc-cnrc.gc.ca/cjo/cjo42/i07-096.pdf

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Re: McKennas philosophy on the nature of time [Re: Indigenous]
    #9645645 -

Quote:
SHAMANISM CAN'T CURE ALL DISEASE!!!!!!!



Tell me what specifically it can cure.


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Re: McKennas philosophy on the nature of time [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9645680 -

The difference in the labeling of cause and nature of sickness would make it impossible to translate into western terms.

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Re: McKennas philosophy on the nature of time [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9645721 -

Why do you act like the west is doing so well.  The super technologies in the west of television, smashing of the atom.  Our system is flawed!  Consumer capitalism is absolutely with out a doubt flawed.  Its very non competitive, its messy, it wastes the environment, it wastes human resources, its inefficient, it runs on stereotypes.  And these stereotypes make everybody appear alike when infact the glory is in everyone's differences.  It generates contradictions, were cutting the earth out before our own feet, were poisoning the air and our water.  And this is not intelligent behavior, this is a culture that is a disease on the face of the earth. 

Where as the hunter gatherer tribes of south america.  They have been thriving WAY longer than any western society, and still thrive to this day.  And it starts with the shaman.  He is in possession of certain facts about plants, animals, healing, human psychology, local geography and about sex.  They have figured it out.  These hunter gatherer people understand that this is how human being operates.  It cares for earth and all of its inhabitants, it doesn't waste resources, its not messy, its efficiant, it doesn't pollute the atmosphere or the water we drink.  THIS is intelligent behavior.  Burning fossil fuels so that i can get from NY to LA for some business meeting about money is not how life works, its not what being human is all about.  These hunter gather people are in fact the most intelligent people on the face of the earth.  In the west we have our computers, cars, airplanes, magazines, movies.  All of this are just ways of tricking you into following a culture that is designed to make you lazy and dumb.  The west is full of technologies that make things easier.  Life isn't supposed to be about shoving processed sugar in your mouth and sitting on your ass looking at a television monitor.  The western culture has gotten out of touch with the animal spirit, which is what really makes us human.  And the cultures with that shamans are the ones that have been thriving for 1000's of years.  Not the romans, greeks, nazis.  All of these huge nations which thrive on consuming are fundamentally flawed, and history points this out.  We need to go back to something more real, and more in touch with the spirit.  And psychedelics have helped me make this transition.


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L'enfer est plein de bonnes volontés et désirs

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