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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Re: checkmate, you atheists [Re: blewmeanie]
    #9643604 -

blewmeanie said:
Atheism is not a philosophy, its the absence of a particular philosophy.



atheism is a religious belief, it's the belief that there is no
god, no higer power, no great spirit no Xenu... it's a religion
unto it's self and is filled with the same sort of nutcase fundies
that all other religions have


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California Has Legalized Child Prostitution

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Re: checkmate, you atheists [Re: Ferris]
    #9643606 -

Ferris said:
True, but I don't see any reason to debate more than one type of god at a time.

Too much ground, as if that weren't already true.


Very true.


--------------------
The Prophecy!

Learn To Code

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Re: checkmate, you atheists [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #9643611 -

Prisoner#1 said:
blewmeanie said:
Atheism is not a philosophy, its the absence of a particular philosophy.



atheism is a religious belief, it's the belief that there is no
god, no higer power, no great spirit no Xenu... it's a religion
unto it's self and is filled with the same sort of nutcase fundies
that all other religions have


Its not a religion, it isn't any kind of belief whatsoever, but many many people certainly do treat it as such. They tend to be just a full of themselves as the douchy religious nuts.

Personally I refuse to allow my thoughts and experiences clouded with anyone elses dogma. Fuck religion.


--------------------
The Prophecy!

Learn To Code

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Re: checkmate, you atheists [Re: blewmeanie]
    #9643615 -

blewmeanie said:
Prisoner#1 said:
blewmeanie said:
Atheism is not a philosophy, its the absence of a particular philosophy.



atheism is a religious belief


Its not a religion, it isn't any kind of belief whatsoever



it is a religious belief system, do you believe there is not a god?


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California Has Legalized Child Prostitution

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Re: checkmate, you atheists [Re: blewmeanie]
    #9643618 -

There seems to be some debate as to what atheism actually is. There is the type which is merely disbelief or lack of belief in specific religion and goes no further. But there also seems to be the type which prisoner is referring to which believe that the non existence of god has been proven in some way or is logically impossible.

Edited by DimensionX (01/20/09 03:13 AM)

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Re: checkmate, you atheists [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #9643620 -

Prisoner#1 said:
blewmeanie said:
Prisoner#1 said:
blewmeanie said:
Atheism is not a philosophy, its the absence of a particular philosophy.



atheism is a religious belief


Its not a religion, it isn't any kind of belief whatsoever



it is a religious belief system, do you believe there is not a god?


The concept of an agency outside of nature with the ability to reach into natural law and control events is supernaturalism, the foundation of any religion. Belief in the existence of that agency is based on faith. An Atheist has no specific belief system. We accept only that which is scientifically verifiable. Since god concepts are unverifiable, we do not accept them.

Also I would like to know where religious people think god came from. In other words who created god.


--------------------
1) Cars can hurt you.
2) You cannot fly.
3) It's never a good time to die.
4) Taking your clothes off will draw attention.
5) Keep your mouth shut at all times while in public.
6) Although you may see things that are not there, you won't NOT see things that are there.
7) Don't forget how to breathe.
8) Only carry: a house-key, some loose change, and your address in your shoe.
9) Nobody can tell that you are tripping until you tell them "I'm tripping".
10) No matter how fucked-up you think you are, you'll eventually come down.

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Re: checkmate, you atheists [Re: DimensionX]
    #9643621 -

I think the first you refer to may be agnosticism


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California Has Legalized Child Prostitution

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Re: checkmate, you atheists [Re: Louiscypher]
    #9643626 -

I think the line between the two is very blurry.

Edited by DimensionX (01/20/09 03:16 AM)

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Re: checkmate, you atheists [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #9643628 -

Prisoner#1 said:
blewmeanie said:
Prisoner#1 said:
blewmeanie said:
Atheism is not a philosophy, its the absence of a particular philosophy.



atheism is a religious belief


Its not a religion, it isn't any kind of belief whatsoever



it is a religious belief system, do you believe there is not a god?


I think other peoples past musings as to things like the origin of the universe, and the origin of life on our planet are absolutely worthless to me, so I don't waste my time with them.

From the perspective of most religions I am atheist, as I find error in their logic. However my personal thoughts as to what exists outside of our perceptual existence certainly do not fall within the realm of "atheistic naturalism".


--------------------
The Prophecy!

Learn To Code

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Re: checkmate, you atheists [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #9643629 -

Prisoner#1 said:
I think the first you refer to may be agnosticism


+1

atheism relies on faith nearly as much as organized religion


--------------------
I'm a nihilist. Lets be friends.

bang bang

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Re: checkmate, you atheists [Re: d33p]
    #9643636 -

I think the difference is that an agnostic may entertain the notion that a god could exist, while this type of atheist will not even consider it because it can not be verified. But i do think there are more extreme forms of atheism, and i actually think these forms are the more common.

Edited by DimensionX (01/20/09 03:20 AM)

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Re: checkmate, you atheists [Re: DimensionX]
    #9643646 -

DimensionX said:
I think the difference is that an agnostic may entertain the notion that a god could exist, while this type of atheist will not even consider it because it can not be verified. But i do think there are more extreme forms of atheism, and i actually think these forms are the more common.


an atheist rejects the idea of an omnipotent being

that requires faith

that said, i consider the idea that there exists an omnipotent being as possible as there exists a unicorn fluent in farsi living in my left testicle

therefore i consider myself an agnostic


--------------------
I'm a nihilist. Lets be friends.

bang bang

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Re: checkmate, you atheists [Re: d33p]
    #9643648 -

oh, please post this in spirituality to troll OC plz.


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You can check the last post in my journal for contact info.

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Re: checkmate, you atheists [Re: Louiscypher]
    #9643649 -

From a philosohy minor this one is easy.

Firstly, he begins by using what is essentially the cosmological argument to illustrate that the physical world cannot be a causa sui (cause in itself). 

But his very same argument can apply to everything outside of the circle as well.  Surely, there must be another underlying cause of everything outside of that circle as well... ad infinitum.  The question is this, if God need not have a cause why must we suggest that the universe needs a cause either?  Why draw the circle at all?  It's based on the idea that the universe can not be the causa sui (infinite  in its manifestation). 

His observation of the nature of existence is limited by the same senses as any other person.  He can only know the universe through the faculties of his senses, which he claims can not comprehend this world outside of our universe.  Now if he's limited by the same senses as the rest of us, how does he know that his mind does not deceive himself about the nature of existence?  In order for him to come to these conclusions about cause and effect, he can only infer these things exist through inductive logic based upon aposteriori experience.  And yet, he can not prove his experience is in fact "true to reality". 

Well sure he can, he could say that God would not deceive him about such things.  Well how does he know god exists?  Uh Oh.  Looks like we've got that darn circular reasoning again!


We can not measure naturalism, because naturalism is a philosophy.  He's very bad with his vernacular.  We can measure aspects of the physical world, but we can not measure all of existence itself.  It is true that we are like fish in water, fish don't know that they are in water but nonetheless they are.  It does not follow, that because we can't "measure naturalism" that there must be God.  It's essentially,

1. it's impossible for science to explain everything 2.  something must exist outside of the realm of things explainable by science 3. if science can't explain it, it must be god

Science is not perfect, and science can not explain everything.  This is not a proof for the existence for or against god.

He talks about the fact that we can't know that our brain is "functioning" properly, because we'd have to use the brain in order come to this conclusion and this is circular reasoning.  And yet, his argument falls into the very same trap he's arguing against.  He's using his brain to argue that our brain's can not have a naturalistic cause.  How else could he know this unless his brain is functioning properly?  How does he know his brain is functioning properly?  HE USED HIS BRAIN!

There's no such thing as a brain that's functioning "properly."

I'm not even going to touch on his understanding of evolution.  He clearly has no idea what he's talking about here, and needs to take some basic anthropology classes.  His understanding of history is also quite skewed, probably by being indoctrinated by a dogmatic church.  The cosmological argument at least deserves consideration.

BTW, I am NOT an atheist.  But I reject all arguments in favor of God's existence as false.


I will let wikipedia do the talking.

"[edit] What Caused the First Cause?
One objection to the argument is that it leaves open the question of why the First Cause is unique in that it does not require a cause. Proponents argue that the First Cause is exempt from having a cause, while opponents argue that this is special pleading or otherwise untrue.[12] The problem with arguing for the First Cause's exemption is that it raises the question of why the First Cause is indeed exempt.[13] Proponents who follow William Lane Craig's statement of the argument counter that the atheists' objection is a straw-man argument, pointing out that the first premise does not state that everything needs a cause, only that an entity needs a cause if and only if it has a beginning; thus, since the First Cause (often God) doesn't have a beginning, it doesn't need a cause.

Secondly, the premise of causality has been arrived at via a posteriori (inductive) reasoning, which is dependent on experience. David Hume highlighted this problem of induction and showed that causal relations were not true a priori (deductively). Even though causality applies to the known world, it does not necessarily apply to the Universe at large. In other words, it is unwise to draw conclusions from an extrapolation of causality beyond experience.[12] Furthermore, the rules of causality only make sense in the context of time, which obviously did not exist before the creation of the universe, thus it is nonsensical to speak of "causes", specifically a First Cause, when discussing the origins of the universe. Therefore speaking of God or anything else as a first cause makes no sense as there there is no time so subsequently, in the context of the origin of the universe, nothing can be 'caused'

Additionally, it is argued that Occam's razor can be used against the argument, showing how the argument fails using both the efficient and conserving types of causality.[14] However, the claim that the Cosmological Argument fails in using conserving types of causality is debatable; Occam says that it fails for these types of causality only if the universe had no beginning.[15]"

SOURCE: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmological_argument

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Re: checkmate, you atheists [Re: d33p]
    #9643660 -

d33p said:
DimensionX said:
I think the difference is that an agnostic may entertain the notion that a god could exist, while this type of atheist will not even consider it because it can not be verified. But i do think there are more extreme forms of atheism, and i actually think these forms are the more common.


an atheist rejects the idea of an omnipotent being

that requires faith

that said, i consider the idea that there exists an omnipotent being as possible as there exists a unicorn fluent in farsi living in my left testicle

therefore i consider myself an agnostic


How does rejecting an omnipotent being require faith? I am an atheist. I do not require faith to tell me there is no god. I have no scientific based fact or evidence that god exists.


--------------------
1) Cars can hurt you.
2) You cannot fly.
3) It's never a good time to die.
4) Taking your clothes off will draw attention.
5) Keep your mouth shut at all times while in public.
6) Although you may see things that are not there, you won't NOT see things that are there.
7) Don't forget how to breathe.
8) Only carry: a house-key, some loose change, and your address in your shoe.
9) Nobody can tell that you are tripping until you tell them "I'm tripping".
10) No matter how fucked-up you think you are, you'll eventually come down.

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Re: checkmate, you atheists [Re: Louiscypher]
    #9643667 -

Louiscypher said:
d33p said:
DimensionX said:
I think the difference is that an agnostic may entertain the notion that a god could exist, while this type of atheist will not even consider it because it can not be verified. But i do think there are more extreme forms of atheism, and i actually think these forms are the more common.


an atheist rejects the idea of an omnipotent being

that requires faith

that said, i consider the idea that there exists an omnipotent being as possible as there exists a unicorn fluent in farsi living in my left testicle

therefore i consider myself an agnostic


How does rejecting an omnipotent being require faith? I am an atheist. I do not require faith to tell me there is no god. I have no scientific based fact or evidence that god exists.


I guess reject is actually the wrong word

An atheist can be described as someone who believes there is no god

it's all semantics

who cares?

we all know there's no sentient being watching over us


--------------------
I'm a nihilist. Lets be friends.

bang bang

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Re: checkmate, you atheists [Re: d33p]
    #9643689 -

What is he trying to prove?? Hes talking shit.


--------------------

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Re: checkmate, you atheists [Re: austino313]
    #9643691 -

Nice contribution to the discussion, kinda sounds like you're talking shit though. :shrug:


--------------------
The Prophecy!

Learn To Code

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Re: checkmate, you atheists [Re: blewmeanie]
    #9643698 -

blewmeanie said:
Nice contribution to the discussion, kinda sounds like you're talking shit though. :shrug:


I'm going to stop the video at :57 and call BS.  The current scientific standard known no limit to the universe.  This guy draws a circle and says this is the universe.  In short, he's contradicting his own argument about atheists unto himself.

Besides, he's talking about naturalism.  Not atheists who firmly believe in an infinite universe of quantum possibilities.

Thanks NewbieShroomie for putting down what i couldent express in words.

"Besides, he's talking about naturalism.  Not atheists who firmly believe in an infinite universe of quantum possibilities."

So in my opinion hes talking shit, hes not even talking about athesim which is what the argument was spossed to be agenst.


--------------------

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Re: checkmate, you atheists [Re: austino313]
    #9643733 -

Yeah, I'd say "shit" pretty much sums up everything that cunt has to say.


--------------------
The Prophecy!

Learn To Code

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