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Re: Do you think evolution is blind? [Re: Cracka_X]
    #9343931 -

Quote:
There's a paleontologist named Neil Shubin who "discovered" an intermediate organism that was one of the first to hit land.  Let me clarify the intermediate comment.  THERE'S NO MISSING LINK.  If we think about "missing links" then there's an endless void to fill as far "missing links" are concerned.  So this is one of many intermediates.  The species is called Tiktaalik.



So what? I'm not proposing that evolution didn't actually occur or that we magically appeared on Earth. Sheesh, I wouldn't even argue that a an amino acid sequence magically appeared. I'm saying maybe everything evolves against all odds. Maybe you should check out this:

Quote:
Published in his 1982/1984 books Evolution from Space (co-authored with Chandra Wickramasinghe), Hoyle calculated that the chance of obtaining the required set of enzymes for even the simplest living cell was one in 1040,000. Since the number of atoms in the known universe is infinitesimally tiny by comparison (1080), he argued that even a whole universe full of primordial soup would grant little chance to evolutionary processes. He claimed:

    The notion that not only the biopolymer but the operating program of a living cell could be arrived at by chance in a primordial organic soup here on the Earth is evidently nonsense of a high order.

Hoyle compared the random emergence of even the simplest cell to the likelihood that "a tornado sweeping through a junk-yard might assemble a Boeing 747 from the materials therein." Hoyle also compared the chance of obtaining even a single functioning protein by chance combination of amino acids to a solar system full of blind men solving Rubik's Cube simultaneously.[8]



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Re: Do you think evolution is blind? [Re: Epigallo]
    #9344612 -


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Re: Do you think evolution is blind? [Re: Patisotagami]
    #9345067 -

smmu said:
to answer diaboleros, I would remind him that natural selection is usually not evident in such cases... what you are referring to is more a case of sexual selection than natural selection. Perhaps it is an advantage in countries where the climate is very cold to have very white skin because females find it more attractive... so the males with fairer skin will pass their alleles on to their progeny more often.

natural selection is evident over millions of years, usually not the thousands of years that humans have been around will we be able to notice significant changes like what we are discussing.




How do you explain the perfect correlation between color of skin and the amount of sunlight in the according environment through natural selection?

According to natural selection, everyone who's skin doesn't match the amount of sunlight, isn't able to reproduce, or isn't able to survive?! According to natural selection, people don't gain a certain skin, but people with the wrong skin just simply get extinct? And the gaining of the correct skin doesn't happen through intelligent adaptation, but through random mutation of the genes? What a coincidence huh, that random mutation leads to perfect correlation between skin color and sun exposure?

Wouldn't it be more logical the other way around, that people actually intelligently adapt to the amount of sunlight? Isn't tanning a good indication that we actually do so?

How can you be so sure, that natural selection is the only mechanism behind evolution? Why couldn't there possibly be more mechanisms behind this complex process?

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Re: Do you think evolution is blind? [Re: Diaboleros]
    #9345097 -

Please, read some Richard Dawkins.


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Re: Do you think evolution is blind? [Re: Diaboleros]
    #9345108 -

often the reason for members of a cultural group in a locality having a high simmilarity to eachother
such as in regions of scandinavia, china or africa etc.
is that the strangers (who did not appear like the rest) were told to leave and those that remained beyond their welcome were killed;
probably raped robbed and then killed.

this is consistent with what we know about xenophobia, superstition, and dominant alpha male type bullies.


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:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: Do you think evolution is blind? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #9345149 -

deCypher said:
Please, read some Richard Dawkins.



I'm not questioning natural selection or evolution, I just really fail to see how natural selection can explain everything about evolution. If you do, please explain my example to me...
redgreenvines said:
often the reason for members of a cultural group in a locality having a high simmilarity to eachother
such as in regions of scandinavia, china or africa etc.
is that the strangers (who did not appear like the rest) were told to leave and those that remained beyond their welcome were killed;
probably raped robbed and then killed.

this is consistent with what we know about xenophobia, superstition, and dominant alpha male type bullies.



Yes ok, but according to evolution, and according to history, all of mankind originated from the same race, and migrated all over the globe. So there had to be an adaptation to the color of skin somewhere along the way?

So this adaptation happened through random mutation and natural selection, and not through intelligent adaptation to the environment? How do you explain this process happening through natural selection?

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Re: Do you think evolution is blind? [Re: Diaboleros]
    #9345210 -

you may be confusing mutation with adaptation
we carry lots of mutation that is not adaptive and not lethal
freckles and skin color are not particularly adaptive in 99% of cases.


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:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: Do you think evolution is blind? [Re: Diaboleros]
    #9345235 -

Diaboleros said:
According to natural selection, everyone who's skin doesn't match the amount of sunlight, isn't able to reproduce, or isn't able to survive?! According to natural selection, people don't gain a certain skin, but people with the wrong skin just simply get extinct? And the gaining of the correct skin doesn't happen through intelligent adaptation, but through random mutation of the genes? What a coincidence huh, that random mutation leads to perfect correlation between skin color and sun exposure?

Wouldn't it be more logical the other way around, that people actually intelligently adapt to the amount of sunlight? Isn't tanning a good indication that we actually do so?



It isn't that people whose skin doesn't match the amount of sunlight aren't able to reproduce or aren't able to survive--it's that those people whose skin does match the amount of sunlight have a higher likelihood of surviving long enough to reproduce.  Presumably skin color gives an advantage in this way (there are higher incidences of skin cancer in white-skinned, blond people than there are with dark-skinned people).

If intelligent adaptation were to explain skin color, it would be the capacity for intelligent adaptation itself that was evolved via natural seleciton.


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Re: Do you think evolution is blind? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #9345255 -

are freckles ever adaptive?

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Re: Do you think evolution is blind? [Re: Epigallo]
    #9345297 -

a good batch of freckles can be combat camoflauge to the exotically naked among us.


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:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: Do you think evolution is blind? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #9345318 -

:lol: of course.

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Re: Do you think evolution is blind? [Re: deCypher]
    #9345347 -

This article provides more information about natural selection & melanin:

http://anthro.palomar.edu/adapt/adapt_4.htm

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Re: Do you think evolution is blind? [Re: Veritas]
    #9345586 -

if you read that article you will understand that the people that wrote it do not really understand selection nor the reality of human cruelty in social esthetics.

the article has the same sophistication and tone as a high school health class.
I love the part about the esquimaux being an exception to the rule.
that is because the rule is made up - ther is no such rule.
it's fake

the selection due to melanonin via skin cancers would not set in early enough to affect reproduction - i.e. it would not be effectively adaptive to population dynamics, which is selective for evolution.

however,
ruthless primitives would kill those who had exposed scary moles or melanoma like growths for fear of contamination.
the old shamans were really evil that way.
the result was much more beautiful people.
funny.


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:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: Do you think evolution is blind? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #9345668 -

And now plastic surgery and dieting to death is ruining all that.


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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Do you think evolution is blind? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #9345743 -

Since Vitamin D is linked to immune function, I think that it is a reasonable explanation for selection related to melanin.  Do you have any sources for your xenophobia assertions?

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Re: Do you think evolution is blind? [Re: Veritas]
    #9345863 -

no you must be right
there never was any death to outsiders in all of human history.


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:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: Do you think evolution is blind? [Re: Epigallo]
    #9345889 -

bradley said:
Is it possible for complex structures to evolve without any sort of guiding intelligence, or did we and everything else come into being in the way an image of Jesus appears on the wall after using an uncovered blender?



You are asking for an objective answer, to a subjective  question. A paradox it seems. All you will get because of the structure of this question, is opinions treated as facts.. Science says it is possible, while religious folk argue that you know who, pulled all this off in six days. I guess the answer depends on your degree of gullibility.


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Nam-myoho-renge-kyo

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Re: Do you think evolution is blind? [Re: Epigallo]
    #9346350 -

bradley said:
Quote:
Published in his 1982/1984 books Evolution from Space (co-authored with Chandra Wickramasinghe), Hoyle calculated that the chance of obtaining the required set of enzymes for even the simplest living cell was one in 1040,000. Since the number of atoms in the known universe is infinitesimally tiny by comparison (1080), he argued that even a whole universe full of primordial soup would grant little chance to evolutionary processes. He claimed:

    The notion that not only the biopolymer but the operating program of a living cell could be arrived at by chance in a primordial organic soup here on the Earth is evidently nonsense of a high order.

Hoyle compared the random emergence of even the simplest cell to the likelihood that "a tornado sweeping through a junk-yard might assemble a Boeing 747 from the materials therein." Hoyle also compared the chance of obtaining even a single functioning protein by chance combination of amino acids to a solar system full of blind men solving Rubik's Cube simultaneously.[8]








For some reason I distrust those who overly use statistics to prove theories wrong.

I have a bit more faith in the obscure chance that such outrageous consequences would occur. Then lets throw billions upon billions of years for this to "occur" and I think it wouldn't sound too outlandish.


For further reading...

Quote:
The Luria-Delbrück experiment (1943) (also called the Fluctuation Test) demonstrates that in bacteria, genetic mutations arise in the absence of selection, rather than being a response to selection. Therefore, Darwin's theory of natural selection acting on random mutations applies to bacteria as well as to more complex organisms. Max Delbrück and Salvador Luria won the 1969 Nobel Prize in Physiology or Medicine in part for this work.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luria-Delbr%C3%BCck_experiment


First you spoke about evolution(in a speciation sense), but I guess you're really talking about the evolution of the first proteins or building blocks to life??

Edited by Cracka_X (12/01/08 07:00 PM)

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Re: Do you think evolution is blind? [Re: Cracka_X]
    #9346768 -

Pan-theist right here


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L'enfer est plein de bonnes volontés et désirs

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Re: Do you think evolution is blind? [Re: DieCommie]
    #9347137 -

So to what extent am I evolution? Am I within, or without?

I do not understand how the prospect of freedom can arise from a causal principal (evolution)?

-------------

How does evolution relate to human creativity, and what does it mean?

Here's something I read this morning that reminded me a bit of this thread. Its from David Lynch's book Catching the Big Fish: meditation, consciousness, and creativity.

Quote:
The idea just needs to be enough to get you started, because, for me, whatever follows is a process of action and reaction. It's always a process of building and then destroying. And then, out of this destruction, discovering a thing and building on it. Nature plays a huge part in it. Putting difficult materials together - like baking something in sunlight, or using one material that fights another material - causes its own organic reaction. Then its a matter of sitting back and studying it and studying it and studying it; and suddenly, you find you're leaping up out of your chair and going in and doing the next thing. That's action and reaction.



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