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Re: Do you think evolution is blind? [Re: Epigallo]
    #9341597 -

bradley said:
No one is debating whether natural selection occurs, its a question of whether random chance can produce the level of complexity we have. Either way, a mal-adapted species isn't going to thrive.

DieCommie - do you think there is a fundamental subatomic particle from which all things emerge?


IMO "random chance" is also a human idea, as is "intention," "intelligence," and everything else used to frame the debate. None of these things exist outside of our collective human attempts to understand a universe that we are only a small part of.

The difference between evolution and intelligent design is that the former is based on hard science and critical analysis of the facts in the properly scientific occam's razor fashion, whereas the latter is a shallow excuse to ignore fact in favor of religious dogmatism.


--------------------
Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.


Edited by Tchan909 (12/01/08 12:49 AM)

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Re: Do you think evolution is blind? [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #9341681 -

Quote:
IMO "random chance" is also a human idea, as is "intention," "intelligence," and everything else used to frame the debate. None of these things exist outside of our collective human attempts to understand a universe that we are only a small part of.


Sure they do. Other animals have no intelligence, no intention?? If a mountain goat falls off a cliff and a fluffy bush breaks its fall, was that its intention, or was it random chance?

Quote:
The difference between evolution and intelligent design is that the former is based on hard science and critical analysis of the facts in the properly scientific occam's razor fashion, whereas the latter is a shallow excuse to ignore fact in favor of religious dogmatism.




Just because fundamentalists adopt what seem to be creative aspects in the universe to support their dogma, doesn't mean those aspects don't exist. There's nothing in the law of natural selection that rules out the creative possibility; while it fully explains how patterns dissolve, it is far from proven that "random" (i have to use random, or else it is conscious, intentional) mutations are solely responsible for the emergence of patterns.

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Re: Do you think evolution is blind? [Re: Epigallo]
    #9342547 -

While a large part of evolution is organism vs. environment natural selection, there is also the element of sexual selection, which is intraspecies, organism vs. organism competition for mates.

This sort of evolution is a conscious, minded evolution.  The female decides which traits are the most attractive and should be passed on.  Understanding evolution from this point of view, we did not come to exist solely due to random happenings but also due to the decisions and desires of our ancestors.

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Re: Do you think evolution is blind? [Re: Epigallo]
    #9342584 -

neither chance nor evolution are single processes
both chance and evolution are words that pertain to unravelling what happenned.
they are neither forces nor intelligences
they are structured afterthoughts
they are like the index which can be found at the back of the book where you locate the mysteries through the story that is written before the index.

in a way chance and probability is more of a basis for decision making than evolution, since you can predict the outcome of a card game.

you cannot predict the outcome of evolution except in the instance of extinction, which is guaranteed when all members of a group are annihillated.


--------------------
:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: Do you think evolution is blind? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #9342679 -

redgreenvines said:
you cannot predict the outcome of evolution except in the instance of extinction, which is guaranteed when all members of a group are annihillated.


:thumbup:


--------------------
Goodbye Shroomery.

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Re: Do you think evolution is blind? [Re: Epigallo]
    #9342751 -

bradley said:
Is it possible for complex structures to evolve without any sort of guiding intelligence, or did we and everything else come into being in the way an image of Jesus appears on the wall after using an uncovered blender?


:thumbup: All signs point to this. Unless of course you are uncomfortable with your unspecialness. Then you can come up with all kinds of irrational ideas about evolution.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Do you think evolution is blind? [Re: Sleepwalker]
    #9342759 -

Oweyervishice said:
Aren't we part of the process? We certainly are not blind.  We can change the course of evolution.

I'd say evolution isn't necessarily blind, but it needs no guidance to work.


We have never changed the course of evolution. To do that we would need to be outside the process. We are evolving like everything else. It so fucking human to think we are not part of the process.:lol:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Do you think evolution is blind? [Re: Icelander]
    #9342872 -

Of course we have changed the course of evolution.  Every single species, and every individual creature/plant does this to some extent.  We alter the surroundings, change the environment and thus change the fitness landscape which in turn changes what is considered fit and what is considered unfit.

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Re: Do you think evolution is blind? [Re: DieCommie]
    #9342903 -

IMO it's evolution that is changing itself by adapting to the environment that is in constant flux. We are part of the evolution process as is everything else.

To say we were guiding the process puts us outside of evolution. Sort of like God. Another fantasy of the human mind it seems.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Do you think evolution is blind? [Re: Icelander]
    #9342950 -

Quote:
To say we were guiding the process puts us outside of evolution.


How so?  Surley we cant deny that we have changed the course of evolution by driving some animals to extinction.  We also subsidize species that without us would be quite unfit (farm animals, pets, endangered megafauna).

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Re: Do you think evolution is blind? [Re: Icelander]
    #9342987 -

Icelander said:
IMO it's evolution that is changing itself by adapting to the environment that is in constant flux. We are part of the evolution process as is everything else.

To say we were guiding the process puts us outside of evolution. Sort of like God. Another fantasy of the human mind it seems.


  I am therefore I exist. Determinism meets freedom and whether we are responsible for anything.


--------------------
Wave.
'And for this reason repentance (metanoia) is an elevating means. For he who feels impatience with the circunstances in which he finds himself, devises means of escape.
  Now the chief thing in purification is the will. For then both deeds and words lend a helping hand. But, when the will is absent, the whole purificatory discipline of initiation is...'

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Re: Do you think evolution is blind? [Re: Icelander]
    #9343227 -

Icelander said:
IMO it's evolution that is changing itself by adapting to the environment that is in constant flux. We are part of the evolution process as is everything else.

To say we were guiding the process puts us outside of evolution. Sort of like God. Another fantasy of the human mind it seems.


I don't think you are paying attention
or else we are using this word in a "New Age - Mckenna fashion"
scientifically speaking,
evolution is not a process, it is a summary of history.
history is not a process, it is all the stories all together.
it never even got into a single book.
the editors have always excluded the unsavory bits.

at least with evolution,
much of the world - the unexcavated part
still had bones.

in new age terms, every moment can be called evolution
but that is also like saying every moment is history.

evolution needs a timescale that is way bigger than a single lifetime.
scientifically a single lifetime is not part of evolution except for the odd significant MUTANT,
and
you know who you are (only if you are really weird and sexually prolific).
(not until your progeny compete sucessfully on a large scale)


--------------------
:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: Do you think evolution is blind? [Re: Epigallo]
    #9343232 -

bradley said:
Is it possible for complex structures to evolve without any sort of guiding intelligence, or did we and everything else come into being in the way an image of Jesus appears on the wall after using an uncovered blender?


more data is needed

I mean, it's not like "we" came about spontaneously one day.

Eukaryotic cells weren't "evolutionarily" first.  supposedly, cells in the beginning were relatively simple.  Then, through complex environmental and genetic interactions and many deleterious mutations with the occasional rare, "beneficial" mutation... you could write a book on the matter... you get what you have today.  Throw in ummm millions and millions of years to get from point A to B and you got yourself evolution.


I don't understand why, if this is what you're getting at or if you're just asking a question, there needs to be some type of "intelligent" reason behind all this "life".  Would it make you feel better if I said yes? 

There's a paleontologist named Neil Shubin who "discovered" an intermediate organism that was one of the first to hit land.  Let me clarify the intermediate comment.  THERE'S NO MISSING LINK.  If we think about "missing links" then there's an endless void to fill as far "missing links" are concerned.  So this is one of many intermediates.  The species is called Tiktaalik.  Do a search, check it out.  The man wrote a book about "the evolutionary journey onto land".  Good shit, I'd check it out if you're interested. :smile:


BUT, now that I remember your question, yes, I think evolution is blind.  It's not an overnight sensation as there's many deleterious mutations that cause instant death or some terminal torment.  The beneficial, "adaptive" mutations are extremely rare but their presence gets the recognition for terms like "evolution".


--------------------
The best way to live
is to be like water
For water benefits all things
and goes against none of them
It provides for all people
and even cleanses those places
a man is loath to go
In this way it is just like Tao        ~Daodejing

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Re: Do you think evolution is blind? [Re: Epigallo]
    #9343255 -

bradley said:
Do you think evolution is blind?


Show me it's eyes...

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Re: Do you think evolution is blind? [Re: DieCommie]
    #9343264 -

DieCommie said:
Quote:
To say we were guiding the process puts us outside of evolution.


How so?  Surley we cant deny that we have changed the course of evolution by driving some animals to extinction.  We also subsidize species that without us would be quite unfit (farm animals, pets, endangered megafauna).


This is all a part of the evolution process, we are not outside of it. Our affect on animals an the environment is a part of the whole. We are just an animal that thinks it's not an animal.

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Re: Do you think evolution is blind? [Re: Cracka_X]
    #9343272 -

for further info on this, check this

The Luria-Delbruck fluctuation test

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luria-Delbr%C3%BCck_experiment


--------------------
The best way to live
is to be like water
For water benefits all things
and goes against none of them
It provides for all people
and even cleanses those places
a man is loath to go
In this way it is just like Tao        ~Daodejing

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Re: Do you think evolution is blind? [Re: Patisotagami]
    #9343400 -

smmu said:
It is the product of a universal force called Natural Selection.


Evolution is supposed to happen exclusively through natural selection?

So in cold countries, the whiteness of peoples skin is caused by random mutation of the genes, leading to accidental white skin, and this accidental white skin gives them better chance at surviving? Thus, according to survival of the fittest, that would be the reason why in cold countries, people have white skin, because only with white skin you can survive. Is this how natural selection would explain it?

But how about another theory, that organisms, somehow, not through random mutation of genes, intelligently adapt to their environment. Skin turns white in cold environments, it turns dark in warm environments? So my question is, what do you call this other mechanism of evolution, or is there only one mechanism, natural selection?

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Re: Do you think evolution is blind? [Re: DieCommie]
    #9343669 -

DieCommie said:
Quote:
To say we were guiding the process puts us outside of evolution.


How so?  Surley we cant deny that we have changed the course of evolution by driving some animals to extinction.  We also subsidize species that without us would be quite unfit (farm animals, pets, endangered megafauna).


Sure we have but we are just part of a natural process and not in control of it. Your point being that somehow we are more of an influence then the rest of nature which I see no evidence of. Evolution just adapts to the environment and we are part of that environment.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Do you think evolution is blind? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #9343687 -

Right it's not a process and that was incorrect. It's just adapting and changing. :thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Do you think evolution is blind? [Re: Icelander]
    #9343745 -

Icelander said:
IMO it's evolution that is changing itself by adapting to the environment that is in constant flux. We are part of the evolution process as is everything else.

To say we were guiding the process puts us outside of evolution. Sort of like God. Another fantasy of the human mind it seems.


we = god

to answer diaboleros, I would remind him that natural selection is usually not evident in such cases... what you are referring to is more a case of sexual selection than natural selection. Perhaps it is an advantage in countries where the climate is very cold to have very white skin because females find it more attractive... so the males with fairer skin will pass their alleles on to their progeny more often.

natural selection is evident over millions of years, usually not the thousands of years that humans have been around will we be able to notice significant changes like what we are discussing.

and also, evolution is NOT RANDOM. It is also NOT GUIDED. It simply happens. It happens due to the interacting forces of an organism in an environment that leads to progeny with certain alleles at a higher frequency than other alleles. The alleles that make it to the next generation at a higher frequency are more apt to help the species and allow it to live longer and fight off predators, thus we have Evolution!


--------------------
EVERYTHING IS EVERYTHING

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