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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Subconscious as conscious
    #8976271 -

What if the subconscious mind was a conscious entity? Coexisting with the conscious mind in a kind of symbiotic relationship.

The subconscious is at least as intelligent as the conscious mind. It views the world using a different kind of logic. It is able of processing a huge amount of data and collating that data into logical patterns.

It seems to have its own objectives in that it chooses what data to release to the conscious mind and when to do it. Like humans it goes beyond the concept of pure survival into the realms of attaining enjoyment and pleasure out of life.

It is at least as in control over the actions we take as we are. It does this by manipulating our perception of the world and even preforming actions we don't know about or understand. Like the direction you take home from work could be subconsciously manipulated by this other mind so that you can avoid what it perceives as a potential danger.

The connection between us and this mind is so fundamental and interdependent that it is hard to tell where this other mind ends and we begin. Yet it does also show signs of being a independent entity with its own view of the world and its own methods of survival.

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Re: Subconscious as conscious [Re: DimensionX]
    #8976332 -

I have thought about this very interesting indeed.


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"Absolute certainty is a privilege of uneducated minds and fanatics." ~ C.J. Keyser



Mr. Cypher said: "I just tell the girls how sexy I am and their panties melt."

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Re: Subconscious as conscious [Re: DimensionX]
    #8976673 -

Yeah I have thought about this too.

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Re: Subconscious as conscious [Re: lIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl]
    #8977210 -

Very interesting theory, a lot of philosophers have made reference to this, but then the question is, if this is true, how do we most effectively communicate with our other consciousness, the subconsciousness? I heard about people talking to it through their dreams making it manifest as their dream guide, or people talking about channeling their higher self etc.. anyone has any experience with this?

And another question, where do the thoughts come from, from the conscious or from the subconscious? If thoughts come from the subconscious, then doesn't that mean that we are like a puppet on strings being controlled by our subconscious, the strings being thoughts?

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Re: Subconscious as conscious [Re: DimensionX]
    #8977459 -

You're on to something.

Now figure out how to work the UNconscious mind into your model and you have unity. :wink:

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Re: Subconscious as conscious [Re: DimensionX]
    #8977521 -

DimensionX said:
What if the subconscious mind was a conscious entity? Coexisting with the conscious mind in a kind of symbiotic relationship.

The subconscious is at least as intelligent as the conscious mind. It views the world using a different kind of logic. It is able of processing a huge amount of data and collating that data into logical patterns.

It seems to have its own objectives in that it chooses what data to release to the conscious mind and when to do it. Like humans it goes beyond the concept of pure survival into the realms of attaining enjoyment and pleasure out of life.

It is at least as in control over the actions we take as we are. It does this by manipulating our perception of the world and even preforming actions we don't know about or understand. Like the direction you take home from work could be subconsciously manipulated by this other mind so that you can avoid what it perceives as a potential danger.

The connection between us and this mind is so fundamental and interdependent that it is hard to tell where this other mind ends and we begin. Yet it does also show signs of being a independent entity with its own view of the world and its own methods of survival.


I agree with this perspective for the most part--I find such entheogens as Datura and Amanita do allow for some communication with your subconscious, though.


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Re: Subconscious as conscious [Re: deCypher]
    #8979268 -

Really? Now that is interesting! Did you write any trip reports?

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Re: Subconscious as conscious [Re: lIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl]
    #8979344 -

The dream experience is too personal and hard to convey in words to properly express through a trip report, in my opinion.  The best way to know is to experience it for yourself.  :mushroom2:


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Re: Subconscious as conscious [Re: DimensionX]
    #8979363 -

DimensionX said:
What if the subconscious mind was a conscious entity? Coexisting with the conscious mind in a kind of symbiotic relationship.

The subconscious is at least as intelligent as the conscious mind. It views the world using a different kind of logic. It is able of processing a huge amount of data and collating that data into logical patterns.


I understand most of what you're saying but I think these first couple of paragraphs are not clear.

I'm not sure what you mean by an "entity".

I'm not sure what you mean by "the subconscious is intelligent". Of course that would depend very much on your definition of intelligence. Are you saying intelligence is merely a pattern recognition ability? If so, then computers are certainly quite intelligent.

As for "logic", I'm not sure what you mean either. To my knowledge, logic has nothing to do with data processing; on the contrary, it's commonly understood to be class of structures that are left once all content is stripped out of language.

Honestly, while I do agree that much of our brain's content is inaccessible to ourselves under normal circumstances, I don't like the word "unconscious". I don't believe there are any such well-defined structures of the mind. I think the use of the word is fine in a light discussion setting, but I don't believe the idea to have any rigorous definition, or use, except perhaps in simple psychotherapeutic models - which are only that, models.


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Formula: 0

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Re: Subconscious as conscious [Re: DimensionX]
    #8990697 -

In hypnosis we isolate almost purely subconscious levels on the continuum of consciousness. It is a 'twilight zone' into which blends consciousness and unconsciousness. The so-called 'working state' of hypnosis is called somnambulism. Hypnotic coma is The Esdaile State, in which limbs can be amputated without anaesthesia, and, with a minimum of bleeding, owing to a suggestion which the subconscious has the ability to control (not the conscious mind) via suggestion.

The subconscious seems to operate with a mind of its own, but this is usually experienced by dis-ease symptoms like anxiety, phobias, compulsions, nightmares, etc. which are all being generated by a psychic 'tape loop' trapped in the subconscious. Using age regression in hypnotherapy, the ISE (Initial Sensitizing Event) can be found, relived, and released through a dialogue of the adult subject with the inner child subject. The subject returns to the present with memories but without the autonomic symptoms that developed years earlier. The subconscious is intimately tied to autonomic processes of the body and no doubt, like 'autonomous complexes' in the unconscious, they have often been experienced as having a mind of their own - the proverbial demon possessions.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: Subconscious as conscious [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #8990783 -

MarkosTheGnostic, what are your thoughts on magick?


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Re: Subconscious as conscious [Re: deCypher]
    #8991525 -

"Causing change to occur in accordance with one's will" was Crowley's general definition. My thoughts are pretty extensive inasmuch as I began to read magick when I was 18 and I'm now 55. I practiced ceremonial magick for a couple of years, moved on to other forms of attainment: Zen Buddhism, Hindu Yoga, Vajrayana, contemplative Christianity, then returning to the Kabbalism I had begun in my teens. All the while psychedelics and Yoga accompanied these changes. Within the past few years I've read books by Israel Regardie and Crowley, but I long ago read classics: Eliphas Levi, John Fraser, Sir Arthur Avalon, Hebrew, Greek and Celtic magickal practices, Yogic siddhis. Magickal thought can belong to pre-logical child development, to schizoaffective disorder, to schizophrenia, paranoid type, and to classic disciplines in the manipulation of mind and matter. Have I gotten results? Synchronistic, unexpected results I believed at one time, engineered by my unconscious instead of my conscious intentions. That is why I took up the study of the unconscious and pursued yet another school of magick - Jungian psychology. Then, schools of hypnosis. Do I stand in cowled robes in a magick circle today? No.



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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: Subconscious as conscious [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #8991698 -

Markos have you read Regardie's 'The Middle Pillar'?

It ties Kabbalah together with Jungian terms.

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Re: Subconscious as conscious [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #8992480 -

But why was it not preferable to what you practice now?


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Re: Subconscious as conscious [Re: DimensionX]
    #8992631 -

DimensionX said:
What if the subconscious mind was a conscious entity? Coexisting with the conscious mind in a kind of symbiotic relationship.

The subconscious is at least as intelligent as the conscious mind. It views the world using a different kind of logic. It is able of processing a huge amount of data and collating that data into logical patterns.

It seems to have its own objectives in that it chooses what data to release to the conscious mind and when to do it. Like humans it goes beyond the concept of pure survival into the realms of attaining enjoyment and pleasure out of life.

It is at least as in control over the actions we take as we are. It does this by manipulating our perception of the world and even preforming actions we don't know about or understand. Like the direction you take home from work could be subconsciously manipulated by this other mind so that you can avoid what it perceives as a potential danger.

The connection between us and this mind is so fundamental and interdependent that it is hard to tell where this other mind ends and we begin. Yet it does also show signs of being a independent entity with its own view of the world and its own methods of survival.


In my opinion humans evolved from a state where they were only conscious; the unconscious mind flowed readily into the conscious as needed. All sensory information is received by the unconscious mind, after all, it seems to me nature would have optimized the bandwidth of useful information intake.

When humans forged 'the question' however, this all changed. Humans were able to evoke experiential ressurgence in ways that weighted information intake. This information arrangement evolved in parallel with communication; things that could be communicated would be considered more 'important' to the channels between subconscious and conscious. Neural overstimulation would mean these communicable ideas would forge higher association levels between unconscious and conscious, creating a positive feedback loop. The more the boundary between conscious and unconscious was used for specific things- the more this boundary had to be used for those specific things.

Consider the word subconscious; sub means less than. It seems the subconscious itself is subconsciously something we consider to be less that the conscious. I think it was this process of informational self-superiority that forged the feedback loop; we essentially rely on logic being the correct approach to information- but that is only what's logical.

We do(n't) think we are creating the subconscious intentionally.

(I only understand the positive context, it says)


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Know your self.
Know your substance.
Know your source.

The most distorted perspective possible is the perspective that yours is not distorted.

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Re: Subconscious as conscious [Re: Middleman]
    #8992909 -

Middleman said:
Markos have you read Regardie's 'The Middle Pillar'?

It ties Kabbalah together with Jungian terms.


Yes, that was one of the books I read within the past couple of years.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: Subconscious as conscious [Re: deCypher]
    #8992986 -

Because all of the ritual instruments and circles and words of power were externalized, material forms at the outset. They needed to be understood intellectually before they could be valued emotionally and then assimilated, internalized. The magick circle is a mandala, the creation of sacred space. That sacred space needed to become realized as an internal condition. Space is equivalent to Consciousness in Vajrayana Buddism - the blue prayer flag at the top of a vertical flag display - above Earth, Water, Fire and Air. These elements were represented at various cardinal points of the circle. At the center of my circle was "Alpha et Omega" which, at the time, I didn't even realize was reference to 'Christ, the Center' (to quote Dietrich Bonhoeffer). So, I stood upon a symbolic sacred ground or space which needed to be internalized, and it was mysticism, not magick that permitted such a union to occur. Christ needed to dwell within and become my Center.

So, the psychic center that my personality was fixed at in the beginning was The Astral Triangle on the Tree of Life. It contains the chakra motivations of sex and power. A shift occurred from The Astral Triangle to The Ethical Triangle (Geburah, Tiphereth, Gedulah [Chesed]) with the use of Psychedelics. The Veil of Paroketh was rent and Compassion became the new metacenter of my inner life - The Heart Cave, not the Manipura of Manipulation (note the Indo-Aryan root word).
Selflessness transcends selfishness; giving overtakes taking; expansion of consciousness exceeds contraction into denser more material form. Ultimately, the dictate: "Seek ye first the Kingdom of Heaven and its righteousness, and all things shall be added unto ye" proved to be true. The Kingdom of Heaven begins within oneself in a state of ecstasy and it is manifested in the world by a Compassionate individual; righteousness is the actions of a Compassionate being. Sex and power in the forms of partners and position came as a result of Compassion (training to become a professional 'helper' for Compassion's sake attracted partners and employers).

Magick is 'eros' based. It yearns for something outside of one's ego. Mysticism receives with thanksgiving and is 'agape' based. Magick lusts and desires because its objects are deemed external to a subject. Mysticism understands all things are as ONE, and fulfillment comes more naturally with this realization. It is based on the ONE, not on individual egos. It is patient and knows that fulfillment is long-term while satisfactions are fleeting. These Realizations come with maturity. Besides, there is the little-understood danger that too much Wisdom too early makes for a very lonely young person.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: Subconscious as conscious [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #8994183 -

MarkostheGnostic said:
Magick is 'eros' based. It yearns for something outside of one's ego. Mysticism receives with thanksgiving and is 'agape' based. Magick lusts and desires because its objects are deemed external to a subject. Mysticism understands all things are as ONE, and fulfillment comes more naturally with this realization. It is based on the ONE, not on individual egos. It is patient and knows that fulfillment is long-term while satisfactions are fleeting. These Realizations come with maturity. Besides, there is the little-understood danger that too much Wisdom too early makes for a very lonely young person.


A life with satisfactions is preferable to a life without.  Everything might be all one in the end, to be sure, but there is something to be said for the pursuit of power; or a manifestation of the Will over subjective reality (which is all the reality we can ever know).  A change in the microcosm provokes a change in the macrocosm.


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Re: Subconscious as conscious [Re: deCypher]
    #8995334 -

The point of mysticism is that it is all ONE right NOW. God is an Eternal Present (or Presence) of which the human being can be aware here and now and be fulfilled without recourse to selfish satisfactions that rip off others for one's pleasure. Few individuals are mystics. As for me, I would rather be desireless than to have all my desires satisfied. One condition is closer to the transhuman condition I aspire to, the other is just nothing...just jerking-off until death overtakes one's desire-body. We're all Lotuses, but some people can't experience themselves as the glorious blossom floating water and air, they are stuck in the dark muddy roots where water meets earth. We are both and the stem in between. It's just the old Indian metaphor again.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: Subconscious as conscious [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #8996822 -

Quote:
MarkostheGnostic said:As for me, I would rather be desireless than to have all my desires satisfied. One condition is closer to the transhuman condition I aspire to, the other is just nothing...just jerking-off until death overtakes one's desire-body.


Nailed it. Man, Markos, you sure can be long winded sometimes, but I love the wisdom that comes through you. Thank you for being a part of our community. We are truly blessed to have such an open channel here with us.

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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

General Interest > Spirituality & Mysticism
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