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"Collective Unconscious"
    #9907499 -

OK, this isn't to be taken too seriously, but humor me. 


You know how they say we may all be subconsciously linked in some way. Like how there could be a nexus of human consciousness and maybe all life is connected to it, and yadda yadda yadda... 

What if intuition, bizarre coincidences, prophetic dreams, premonitions, and so on is the humans race's collective unconscious sending us messages.

What if this nexus of human consciousness was subtly influencing all of our actions?

To further this, lets say this global subconscious entity knew the human race was out of balance, and in need of cleansing. What if your "plans" for 2012 is heavily influenced by our collective subconscious, and so depending on where our subconscious puts you, decides whether you live or die. (Kind of like a God judging which of its creations should live and which should perish)

Maybe we are all slaves to this subconscious force until it deems us worthy of free will...


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Last night I was honored with the Nobel Prize in theoretical physics. This worldwide recognition has given me the opportunity to bring hope to a war-ravaged world. I vowed to myself I would work like a dog at this. But now, it's 10:30 in the morning and I'm just getting out of bed. I did get up earlier around 8:00am, but I just lied in bed for a while, and then...jerked off. I've got to stop masturbating, it makes me too lazy. Stop it Albert...stop it.

  ~Albert Einstein.

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Re: "Collective Unconscious" [Re: Sentient#6]
    #9907524 -

maybe something like that, but whose to say...sounds good to me. When I think about a consciousness nexus and that we are all one, it just makes me think that this life is all for me and that I'm creating my entire world because I am one of everything experiencing itself.

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Re: "Collective Unconscious" [Re: Sentient#6]
    #9907745 -

Sentient#6 said:
Maybe we are all slaves to this subconscious force until it deems us worthy of free will...


We have free will all the time, but our decisions are also dependent upon every single experience we've had up until the point of action.  We are slaves, yes, but slaves that live and breathe and exert their autonomy onto the world, even if that exertion is ultimately predictable.  It's an illusion, but enough of a sufficiently compelling one so as to allow us to ignore its deceptive nature.

Good post, though.  The idea of the collective unconsciousness is natural arguing by analogy from neurons to the human mind, but the really interesting question is what one should do if one truly realizes this knowledge.  Don't abnegate personal responsibility; if you enjoy cleansing than gladly take the matter into your own hands, but don't throw your destiny up into the palm of an uncaring God.  (Does the mind care whether it loses a few neurons compared to its paltry billions?)  In the end we all will have done what we already did; in this sense determinism clenches your heart with its fateful hand.  But it's still up to us to choose what to do.

The analogy to an artificial neural network and the concept of competing problem-solving strategies emerging with the success or failure (life or death) of certain neurons within the net is an apt one.  It's all a competition; but united for the cooperation of something far greater.


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Re: "Collective Unconscious" [Re: Sentient#6]
    #9908810 -

Quote:
Sentient#6 said:Maybe we are all slaves to this subconscious force until it deems us worthy of free will...


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Re: "Collective Unconscious" [Re: Sentient#6]
    #9916562 -

Sentient#6 said:
What if intuition, bizarre coincidences, prophetic dreams, premonitions, and so on is the humans race's collective unconscious sending us messages.


That's basically what Jung describes it as.

Sentient#6 said:
What if this nexus of human consciousness was subtly influencing all of our actions?



Just work in a retail setting for a while, especially during a depressing. You'll see periods of stagnance (no customers) and then a large group (say 15 people) come in all within a very short time frame. It's interesting to observe such a trend as it loops over the course of a day.

Sentient#6 said:
To further this, lets say this global subconscious entity knew the human race was out of balance, and in need of cleansing. What if your "plans" for 2012 is heavily influenced by our collective subconscious, and so depending on where our subconscious puts you, decides whether you live or die. (Kind of like a God judging which of its creations should live and which should perish)


Where did you make the leap to say the global subconscious is an entity? Further, that it is no longer human in nature?

It seems to me that the collective unconscious is a connection of all humans, and potentially beyond. But to say we have no influence in it, well, that I don't understand. It has been my experience that our influence can be observed. Obviously this comes to a question of whether or not the collective unconscious drove our minds to further evolve itself, or whether we ourselves drove our minds which in turn evolved the collective unconscious. I fail to see any reason to believe the former.

Sentient#6 said:
Maybe we are all slaves to this subconscious force until it deems us worthy of free will...


To restate my above argument, perhaps more clearly, why are we not shaping the collective unconscious, if it is a collection of us? Free will to me is a MUST, because the world is in motion. Ever changing and growing. If everything was determined, where would growth be? I find the concept of creativity to be difficult to grasp in terms of predetermination.

Cypher describes it all as an illusion. But for what cause? I can buy that the reality we perceive is an illusion, it makes sense as it is all energy. By extension he's applying that rule to our neurons -- to the energy involved there being directly linked to thought. I'm not so sure of this. While these chemical and electrical firings are CRUCIAL in our processing of the world (the illusion), there is nothing to indicate how they relate to things such as metacognition (thinking about thought). An example I often use to question the idea that everything we experience can be observed in the physical world is this:

Your television picture becomes fuzzy. You fiddle with the antenna, but the picture remains distorted. So you call in a television repairman. He fiddles with the TV, finding a part malfunctioning within the television itself. Great, the TV now works again.

If we place this onto the human brain: The TV is our brain. If something gets damaged, we can see the distortion. This in turn causes many to say "Aha! If the brain is damaged, thought is damaged! Just look at it."

But what if the brain is like this analogy of a TV. What if we're receiving the signal from somewhere else. The distortion of the picture was not due to the signal being bad. Rather, it had to do with physical damage to the television itself. To see distortions does not mean that the signal is broken.

It is a logical leap on either end to presume which is true. But, since I believe in a soul, I suppose I see the brain as more of a receptor as well as transmitter for our soul. It receives the worlds signal and allows us to transmit back into the world. If we damage our brain, clearly our ability to receive and transmit will become distorted.

Individuals with damage to a certain part of their brain (Wernickes area, I believe) can no longer process language. They can produce it just fine, but it comes out as jibberish. Yet, there is no indication that they're aware that what they say is not what they're intending. If we assume we're receiving a signal, it makes sense that the signal is just fine here. The individual is receiving what they want to say, and trying to transmit it out. The transmitter for language is damaged, and it then comes out at garbly gook. The signal is not blocked however, and seems to be going through, so the individual is none the wiser to the damage.

Counters?


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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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Re: "Collective Unconscious" [Re: Kickle]
    #9916642 -

Kickle said:
But what if the brain is like this analogy of a TV. What if we're receiving the signal from somewhere else. The distortion of the picture was not due to the signal being bad. Rather, it had to do with physical damage to the television itself. To see distortions does not mean that the signal is broken.


Good ol' Cartesian dualism.  How then do you explain the connection between the physical brain and the immaterial soul?


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Re: "Collective Unconscious" [Re: Kickle]
    #9917702 -

Because in order for the soul to believe the illusion of a material world, it needs to have a blindfold.

I'm not sure that answers your question sufficiently though.


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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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Re: "Collective Unconscious" [Re: Kickle]
    #9918224 -

It doesn't, really, but it's a good mystical hand waving nonetheless.


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Re: "Collective Unconscious" [Re: deCypher]
    #9918343 -

Perhaps I'm not entirely understanding what you're asking then.

The dualism is the separation of body and mind. However, a television is nothing without the signal, and the signal is nothing without the television to be placed into. Both are dependent upon the other. So is this separation really relevant?


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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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Re: "Collective Unconscious" [Re: Kickle]
    #9918357 -

Right, right, I was asking more for substantiation of your claim that we do possess a soul and that our brain acts as a receiver for this soul's signal.  I don't see how an entirely physical entity such as the brain would interact with a wholly immaterial entity such as the soul.


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Re: "Collective Unconscious" [Re: deCypher]
    #9918403 -

Accepted.

It's not designed to be definitive. It's designed to create reasonable doubt about the mind being the end all be all.

edit: Did I just miss this part?
Quote:
I don't see how an entirely physical entity such as the brain would interact with a wholly immaterial entity such as the soul.


Sheesh, I'm losing it...

Take for example, stress. It can directly influence our physical bodies, yet, it is wholly intangible.


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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

Edited by Kickle (03/05/09 05:36 PM)

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Re: "Collective Unconscious" [Re: Kickle]
    #9918432 -

For sure; it's definitely an interesting hypothesis.

I liked the use of Wernicke's area in your argument, too--there's something innately disturbing about the idea of not being able to understand or produce meaning in your language.


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Re: "Collective Unconscious" [Re: deCypher]
    #9918469 -

Hey, sorry, I just noticed another part of your post, but I edited in a response.


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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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Re: "Collective Unconscious" [Re: Kickle]
    #9918482 -

Kickle said:
Take for example, stress. It can directly influence our physical bodies, yet, it is wholly intangible. 


Yes, stress is interesting.  I guess I'd define it as the inability for an organism to achieve a desired goal, but it's clearly more complex than that.  It's more of a concept that describes a situation, though, unlike claiming the existence of an immaterial substance that affects matter.

The placebo effect is also a really interesting example of mental beliefs affecting the physical.  (This is not say that mental and physical are necessarily distinct substances, though.  :tongue:)


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Re: "Collective Unconscious" [Re: deCypher]
    #9918567 -

Gravity and Time are both intangible substances which directly influence our physical world.


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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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Re: "Collective Unconscious" [Re: Kickle]
    #9932668 -

i had an experience during a trip where i thought i saw how the collective unconsciousness works.

also the more i've read about psychology and mythology the more i have been inclined to accept the theory of it.


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Re: "Collective Unconscious" [Re: Bridgeburner]
    #9932912 -

b0red5tiff said:
i had an experience during a trip where i thought i saw how the collective unconsciousness works.

also the more i've read about psychology and mythology the more i have been inclined to accept the theory of it.


This is precisely how I feel, the argue of "myth' is well grounded. No matter where you go on the globe you find the same stories because humans as a whole are all very similar, perhaps too similar. I do not however know if I see this as innately "spiritual" or "organic" but rather a mixture of the two. All though it is in many ways a "Map of the Soul" as Jung described it is also very instinctual. I lately feel as though the psyche and the pshycial are melding more and more, but that is most likely due to my increased awareness and search for it. It brings about the response that it is always there for anyone though, in front of their eyes to grasp, unfortunately I feel the set of tools needed are very complex and possibly out of reach for most.

As far as the language aspect was addressed, I agree that there would be few things that could be worse than literally being trapped in your own head, fully functioning, yet unable to express yourself to the world around you.


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With Allure I Look to the Sky With Awakened Eyes

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Re: "Collective Unconscious" [Re: Rocker232]
    #9935226 -

Quote:
As far as the language aspect was addressed, I agree that there would be few things that could be worse than literally being trapped in your own head, fully functioning, yet unable to express yourself to the world around you.


Diving Bell and the Butterfly?


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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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Re: "Collective Unconscious" [Re: Kickle]
    #9939387 -

i'm currently reading jung and a lot of his theories correlate with what i've "felt" intuitively but he puts them into perfect words. a lot of it is theoretical but then again best psychology is supposed to be like that.


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Re: "Collective Unconscious" [Re: Bridgeburner]
    #9939923 -

b0red5tiff said:
i'm currently reading jung and a lot of his theories correlate with what i've "felt" intuitively but he puts them into perfect words. a lot of it is theoretical but then again best psychology is supposed to be like that.


Precisely how I feel. Some ideas seem to click so well that I just do not see any alternative.


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With Allure I Look to the Sky With Awakened Eyes

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