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General Interest > Spirituality & Mysticism
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Re: Subconscious as conscious [Re: JacquesCousteau]
    #8999124 -

A decent inquiry deserves a detailed answer.
I weary of the shallowness of everyday minds.

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Re: Subconscious as conscious [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #8999478 -

I understand what you mean. I just wish I was better equipped to interpret your detailed posts.

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Re: Subconscious as conscious [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #8999555 -

MarkostheGnostic said:
As for me, I would rather be desireless than to have all my desires satisfied. One condition is closer to the transhuman condition I aspire to, the other is just nothing...just jerking-off until death overtakes one's desire-body.


I like the two possible solutions: either remove all desires, or satisfy all one's desires.  The first, if do-able, is certainly more idealistic and Buddha-like, but is this ever really possible?  I would argue that one's animal instincts such as seeking pleasure and power would invariably enter the equation, and why not gratify these before we die?  I suppose pragmatically speaking, neither removing all desires nor satisfying all desires is truly possible (as we are but imperfect humans after all), but if one still will have desires, why not try to gratify as many as you can?

And becoming a mystic does not entail immortality--you're still jerking off until death overtakes your body, but you've had far less fun than the person who sought to gratify their desires.


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Re: Subconscious as conscious [Re: JacquesCousteau]
    #9003360 -

Bah! You can Wiki anything that appears obscure to you. I'm not intending to be difficult.

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Re: Subconscious as conscious [Re: deCypher]
    #9003467 -

Besides 'fun' being the first 3 letters in funeral :wink:, my metamotive in life is not the Freudian "pleasure principle," or Adlerian "social interest," "superiority" or "the will to power" (which he borrowed from Nietzsche). My metamotive is Union, and the 'base camp' for this ascent to the Peak is the Heart Center of Compassion. The 2nd & 3rd chakra motives that account for 'fun,' get in the way of Union, and with progress toward that end such motives lose their attraction. I have a certain degree of what Meister Eckhart called "disinterest," - always have -a condition that doesn't make for very passionate friendships. You're not going to see me enthusiastic over some sporting event, the newest Audi R8, or the visiting pornstar at Tootsie's Caberet down the street. I appreciate the curves of both the car and the woman, but after that, I really don't give a damn. I'm not going to rent either one for the weekend, even though I probably could. I am not greedy for worldly experience, or else I would've traveled a whole lot more, tried to bed a whole lot more woman, and lived a much more worldly life. I suppose that I have understood the teachings of our major path-makers more than the average person.

Immortality is a Greek concept which meant the indefinate continuation of a separate being. This is not the goal of the mystic - Eternal Life is - the Life of Eternity, of God. The mystic Union is a Realization of one's essential Union with God or Ultimate Reality, and a dis-identification with the egoic-mind that is composed of all the 'stuff' that you are referring to. It is the egoic-mind which dies, Essential Being, mystically taken, is imperishable and indistinguisable from BEING Itself. Realization is an awakening from this worldly dream. It is an Oh Yeah! recognition and remembrance of our True Nature, which most human beings forget through their immersion in the dramas of life. That moment of recognition, of the Clear Light of Unmitigated Reality, is an Eternal Moment which does not pass. It exists even now, the question is: Are you experiencing it at all?


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: Subconscious as conscious [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #9006291 -

Does one experience reality more deeply by unifying the subconscious with the superconscious through the conscious mind or by unifying the conscious mind with the trans-conscious through the subconscious?

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Re: Subconscious as conscious [Re: Middleman]
    #9009089 -

Hmmm...Good question. There have been some people who have approached this sort of thing, like Roberto Assagioli in his Psychosynthesis, Ken Wilber and his main opposition Michael Washburn (Transpersonal Psychology in Psychological Perspective, The Ego and the Dynamic Ground), and Lama Govinda's The Foundations of Tibetan Mysticism which pretty much answers your question through traditional Vajrayana psychology. For the Buddhist answer, the pre-personal energy of the instinctual (unconscious) psychic centers (smad) must be sublimated and drawn all the way upward into a union with the transpersonal (superconscious) brain centers (stod) so that a union of psychic opposites occurs. The map for this process is the chakra ladder according to the 5-center Buddhist scheme. Then this Unified Consciousness (symbolized by OM) descends through the now tranformed Throat Center (symbolized by AH) and into the transformed Heart Center (HUM), which is the personal center (bar) and the locus of the synthesized 'Diamond Body' (Vajra/Dorje) which finally manifests all the transformations of prepersonal-personal-transpersonal aspects of mind into the 5 Buddha Wisdoms or Energies.

So, there is this 'shephard's crook' 'ascending path towards universalization' or unification, and the 'descending path towards realization' according to Lama Govinda. Unlike the ascension and dissolution into the Infinite (OM) found in Hindu Tantra, the Buddhist scheme terminates by the Infinite (OM) descending into the finite (HUM).

This is an abstraction which parallels God incarnating HUManity, the Infinite dwelling in finitude that one finds in Christian theology, with two movements of love, as in Christian theology. The ascending path characterizes 'eros' mysticism or Man's ascension and yearning for Oneness, while the descending path characterizes 'agape' mysticism of grace descending from 'on high.' The union of both of these movements in Catholic theology is called the 'caritas synthesis' and contains both movements, while Protestant theology only recognizes agape, and Pagan mysticism (like Neo-Platonism) characterizes eros mysticism (Plato's term for love). So one can talk of eros-desire and agape-love in a theological context, but phenomenologically it appears like transpersonal psychology (Buddhist or Western) using another language game.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: Subconscious as conscious [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #9012172 -

Good answer, I've heard that the Eastern approach is raising energy up and the Western is to draw energy down but I guess that's not true.

I'm beginning to understand why making one's involuntary functions voluntary is so important.

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Re: Subconscious as conscious [Re: Middleman]
    #9014203 -

Well, the kind of yogic control of autonomic processes is only one kind of path. In hypnosis, which isolates subconscious processes, one's subconscious can cut both pain and bleeding off during a limb amputation. However, this degree of subconscious control was well documented among Hindus for whom trance is a culturally acceptable reality. The uptight Brit whom physician James Esdaile operated on, would not have fared so well.

In the Buddhist scheme as in ascetic Christian practices, the instinctual life of survival and sexual needs is transmuted into other forms of psychic energy, up the psychic centers. In Kabbalism, control of psychophysical processes is not enjoined. One needs to establish a higher identity in the Ethical Triangle and transcend the Astral Triangle of thought-feeling-sex - personality in a nutshell, so that one is no longer a personality that has a Spirit, one is Spirit from which personality descends.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: Subconscious as conscious [Re: DimensionX]
    #9021745 -

I would turn that question..

What if it was not? How could we be here, and interact?

:wink:

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Re: Subconscious as conscious [Re: DimensionX]
    #19549355 -

I think when you get into this it is important to note the differences in the conscious and subconscious minds and to see them not as two separate energies but more as different functions of the one. much like a duality one objective the other subjective aka male or female. One takes things very literally this is the subjective or subconscious mind which has a huge degree of control yet still can only use what it is given by the conscious. so the male aspect or conscious aspect has a huge degree more of control in a way if it chooses to utilize this but is still subject to the influence of the subconscious. so in order to break a habit the conscious mind must overcome the inertia of the momentum that the subconscious mind has set in motion because it has figured out a way to do things most efficiently without changing. So the subconscious mind is very resistant to change but once the change is initiated the momentum builds. When you look into this you realize one cannot exist without the other just as the law of polarity states. I believe that when alchemists talk about the union of two to create the one they are talking about the union of the conscious and subconscious mind. When someone is under the influence of a hallucinogen there is a very important psychological change going on. to give an example I will have to give some background info. So as a baby when we look at something for the first time we get a huge rush of chemicals and endorphin's but over time the brain becomes used to this and no longer gives us that feeling or experience its as if a valve in the brain for that object has been turned off and the more you see or experience an object the valve closes more and more to a point.This is important because if we were always in this state of awe we would be unable to perform our normal duties it would be like taking in too much information all the time. This means that our perspectives and experiences are a collection of our valves and which ones are open and closed to put it simply. so when  we consume a hallucinogen these valves are opened up and we are put in a state of mind where we are seeing things in a different perspective then we usually would.  This can lead to a change of which valves are opened more or closed and this change stays even after the "trip" is over this article gives you some more background information on some studies done on this effect and how it can be helpful in therapeutic uses.

Study on personality after use of psilocybin

This means that the things you experience during your fry can hugely affect the person you become. so those who use these tools for spiritual development will see the benefits from use and those whoa re using it for recreational purposes can damage who they are in the future. Of course the rule of everything in moderation is always a good idea when it comes to this.

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General Interest > Spirituality & Mysticism
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