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Descartes: His view on pineal gland and consciousness.
    #8964012 -

Treatise on Man:

        Now among these figures, it is not those imprinted on the external sense organs, or on the internal surface of the brain, which should be taken to be ideas - but only those which are traced in the spirits on the surface of gland H [where the seat of the imagination and the 'common sense' is located]. That is to say, it is only the latter figures which should be taken to be the forms or images which the rational soul united to this machine will consider directly when it imagines some object or perceives it by the senses.





Descartes does not identify mental ideas or 'qualia' with activity within the sense organs, or even with brain activity, but rather with interaction between body and the 'rational soul', through the mediating 'gland H'. This organ is now known as the pineal gland. Descartes notes that, anatomically, while the human brain consists of two symmetrical hemispheres the pineal gland, which lies close to the brain's centre, is singular. Thus he extrapolated from this that it was the mediator between body and soul. consciousness


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L'enfer est plein de bonnes volontés et désirs

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Re: Descartes: His view on pineal gland and consciousness. [Re: Cognitive_Shift]
    #8964023 -

There was guys that thought the sun revolved around the earth. They extrapolated that too.:lol:


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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Descartes: His view on pineal gland and consciousness. [Re: Icelander]
    #8964182 -

If you are famous in one field, you can just make shit up in a brand new field.

That's how it works.


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Re: Descartes: His view on pineal gland and consciousness. [Re: Icelander]
    #8965012 -

Icelander said:
There was guys that thought the sun revolved around the earth. They extrapolated that too.:lol:


I think in light of the idea of relativity, and the absolutism of definition; this is still in a way true. We simply must define the center of the universe to be in the center of the Earth pointing toward America. :shrug:


--------------------
Know your self.
Know your substance.
Know your source.

The most distorted perspective possible is the perspective that yours is not distorted.

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Re: Descartes: His view on pineal gland and consciousness. [Re: ExplosiveMango]
    #8965117 -

define the center of the universe to be in the center of the Earth pointing toward America. :shrug:



and ultimately toward me.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Descartes: His view on pineal gland and consciousness. [Re: Cognitive_Shift]
    #8965177 -

Is there a particular point to this post besides simply rehashing Descartes?

The problem with solving dualism by saying the mind and body meet at the pineal gland is that this only defers the mystery to the gland itself.  How does something mental affect the pineal gland?  How does the physical, hormonal, chemical pineal gland affect the mind?

Too many unanswered questions and the great philosophers of yore can't help us.


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Re: Descartes: His view on pineal gland and consciousness. [Re: Icelander]
    #8965214 -

Icelander said:
define the center of the universe to be in the center of the Earth pointing toward America. :shrug:



and ultimately toward me.


:thumbup:


--------------------
Know your self.
Know your substance.
Know your source.

The most distorted perspective possible is the perspective that yours is not distorted.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Descartes: His view on pineal gland and consciousness. [Re: deCypher]
    #8967421 -

The Cypher said:
Is there a particular point to this post besides simply rehashing Descartes?

The problem with solving dualism by saying the mind and body meet at the pineal gland is that this only defers the mystery to the gland itself.  How does something mental affect the pineal gland?  How does the physical, hormonal, chemical pineal gland affect the mind?

Too many unanswered questions and the great philosophers of yore can't help us.


How? The brain is still a mystery to science, so it's all just speculation. But here's my take on it:

First speculation, consciousness is an electromagnetic field: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetic_theories_of_consciousness

Second speculation, the pineal gland, which serves as an electromagnetic field receiver in a lot of animals (for example birds use the pineal gland as navigation, they pick up the EM field of the earth), might also serve as the receiver for the electromagnetic field which is the consciousness.

I think this theory of Descartes has something to it, and might very well be true, but this is something that will take decades before science will find out.

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Re: Descartes: His view on pineal gland and consciousness. [Re: Diaboleros]
    #8967451 -

Quote:
(for example birds use the pineal gland as navigation, they pick up the EM field of the earth)


Actually, this part is speculative, as well.  Only one study has shown that birds may rely upon the pineal gland for navigation, and it was inconclusive as to whether this function was reliant upon light or electromagnetic fields.

The pineal gland in mammals is quite different from the avian pineal gland, so even conclusive results in the above-referenced study could not accurately be applied to humans.

Once we've layered speculation upon speculation, it is quite difficult to view the conclusion as being viable.  :shrug:

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Re: Descartes: His view on pineal gland and consciousness. [Re: Veritas]
    #8967481 -

That's philosophy for you, speculation upon speculation, but nonetheless stringed together with logic. If it was already scientifically validated, what would be the point of discussing this theory?

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Re: Descartes: His view on pineal gland and consciousness. [Re: Diaboleros]
    #8967489 -

It's not a theory until it has been scientifically validated.  When we are discussing ideas which are subject to falsification, it is necessary to examine the scientific merit of the premises upon which the ideas are based.  If the premises are faulty, there is no basis for considering the ideas to be valid.

This does not apply to philosophical concepts which are non-falsifiable. (Existence of a higher being, for example.)

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Re: Descartes: His view on pineal gland and consciousness. [Re: Diaboleros]
    #8967501 -

Diaboleros said:
First speculation, consciousness is an electromagnetic field: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetic_theories_of_consciousness


Intriguing speculation.  Have you heard of transcranial magnetic stimulation?


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Re: Descartes: His view on pineal gland and consciousness. [Re: deCypher]
    #8967741 -

I would like to see more of this electromagnetic field is consciousness.  Wikipedia seems to just go off a single study, and according to science, we need trials and results which are accurate and precise to confirm a hypothesis.


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L'enfer est plein de bonnes volontés et désirs

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Re: Descartes: His view on pineal gland and consciousness. [Re: Cognitive_Shift]
    #8967802 -

i have never been satisfied with pineal gland theories


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:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: Descartes: His view on pineal gland and consciousness. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #8967828 -

How about the evolution of consciousness.  I really dont buy mckennas 'stoned ape theory'  I believe consciousness evolved when predators had to be able to think like there pray in order to catch them.  Then with the advancement of language, we can make a wider range of sounds than homo erectus.  This language gave us words to describe things/feelings.  Predator/prey and language in conjunction are what lead to consciousness and the human imagination. IMO


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L'enfer est plein de bonnes volontés et désirs

Edited by Cognitive_Shift (09/22/08 12:19 PM)

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Re: Descartes: His view on pineal gland and consciousness. [Re: Cognitive_Shift]
    #8969420 -

I don't believe in souls nor his idea of Dualism. Regarding the pineal gland, it sure is an interesting one.

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Re: Descartes: His view on pineal gland and consciousness. [Re: Cognitive_Shift]
    #8971634 -

Cognitive_Shift said:
Descartes notes that, anatomically, while the human brain consists of two symmetrical hemispheres the pineal gland, which lies close to the brain's centre, is singular. Thus he extrapolated from this that it was the mediator between body and soul. consciousness


That's pretty poor logic for such a brilliant philosopher. Though, in his defence, this was before science was invented so perhaps it was good enough for the time?


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I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Re: Descartes: His view on pineal gland and consciousness. [Re: zouden]
    #8972445 -

I think that science pre-dates Descartes by quite a few years.  :lol:  Perhaps you were referring specifically to neuroscience?

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Re: Descartes: His view on pineal gland and consciousness. [Re: Veritas]
    #8972448 -

or pseudoscience


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Descartes: His view on pineal gland and consciousness. [Re: Icelander]
    #8972472 -

That's been around forever.  :tongue:

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