Home | Community | Message Board
You are not signed in.
Sign In New Account
Forum Index Search Posts Trusted Vendors Highlights Galleries FAQ User List Chat Store Random Growery

Magic-Mushrooms-Shop.com
This site includes paid links. Please support our sponsors.

General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
Threaded Mode Threaded  Previous topic Previous  View all topics Index  Next topic Next 

Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Shop: Original Sensible Seeds Bulk Cannabis Seeds   North Spore North Spore Mushroom Grow Kits & Cultivation Supplies   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   Sporeworks.EU Spores for European Microscopy   MagicBag.co All-In-One Bags That Don't Suck

Jump to first unread post Pages: | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 |  [ show all ]
Re: Money [Re: Redstorm]
    #8672430 -

Barter is just a less-efficient form of cash.  :wink:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Money [Re: Veritas]
    #8672449 -

Not necessarily in a small society or in a society where confidence has been lost in the legal currency.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Money [Re: Redstorm]
    #8672464 -

It's still less-efficient.  After all, I may need what you have, but you might not need what I have.  If we must search for people to form a barter "chain" between our divergent needs, we will spend a great deal more time than we would relying upon a neutral barter "chip" (aka cash).

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Money [Re: Veritas]
    #8672472 -

Good point.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Money [Re: Redstorm]
    #8672482 -

Thank you!  :smile:

I'd prefer a gifting society to a bartering society.  Burning Man, FTW!

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Money [Re: fruitymel13]
    #8672505 -

fruitymel13 said:
amen bluegold! we CAN live in a society where money is irrelevant and sharing and bartering is prevalent. you have something i need, i have something you need, let's trade!


Money is a form of bartering, we use it, because carrying live stock, and textiles around to make our purchases is too cumbersome.


Quote:
getting back to working with the earth as well will be crucial.


When exactly did we stop "working with the earth"? My grandfather ran a farm, and I worked on several of them all throughout my teenage years. Everything from livestock, and tobacco to sunflowers and apples. If you're not "working with the earth" its because you choose not to. Where to you think the food you eat comes from?


--------------------
The Prophecy!

Learn To Code

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Money [Re: Veritas]
    #8672548 -

What if instead of focusing on how to improve our own situation we spend our time providing for the collective.  Instead of one person living in a twenty bedroom home for their family of three while others can't even find enough to eat. I will grow vegetables for my community expecting nothing in return.  My neighbor did the same raising sheep, my other neighbor planting fruit trees.  If we rely on a community to provide for a community we have now taken out the middle man (cash).  Instead we value the quality of life for the collective.  This is not a new concept but one that was practice for thousands of years.  Most see money and barter systems as advancements but I see them as a way to have power over your fellow man.  Community will provide for the community because it is necessary for survival.  Even single celled bacteria will work with the collective to provide for the community.  Why is it that humans feel it necessary to rank everything with complete disregard for what is truly important.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Money [Re: bluegold]
    #8672563 -

I think you'll need some pretty advanced technology if you want to create your communist utopia without accepting a drop in standard-of-living. I don't know if you'll find many doctors and surgeons willing to work for barter.

The others are right - barter is an inferior system to currency. In fact the wikipedia page on money has a good paragraph at the start:
Quote:
Money is not the same as value, the latter being the basic element in economics. Money is central to the study of economics and forms its most cogent link to finance. The absence of money causes a market economy to be inefficient because it requires a coincidence of wants between traders, and an agreement that these needs are of equal value, before a barter exchange can occur. The use of money is thought to encourage trade and the division of labour.



--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

Edited by zouden (07/23/08 04:30 PM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Money [Re: zouden]
    #8672655 -

Communism... It sounds so nice, and then us humans go and fuck it all up just like everything else.


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Money [Re: bluegold]
    #8674357 -

What if instead of focusing on how to improve our own situation we spend our time providing for the
collective.
I believe they call that slavery.


Instead of one person living in a twenty bedroom home for their family of three while others can't even find enough to eat.
thats something that comes along with capitalism. So my best guess is your proposing a form of communism.

I will grow vegetables for my community expecting nothing in return.
either your A)fooling your self in thinking you want nothing in return or B) your just a fool.

My neighbor did the same raising sheep, my other neighbor planting fruit trees.  If we rely on a community to provide for a community we have now taken out the middle man (cash).  Instead we value the quality of life for the collective.

so you do want something in return, you'd grow your vegatables with the assumtion that the community will support you for doing so.


but what happens when someones crops fail? or some is unable/unwilling to contribute for some reason? do you shun them and allow them to die? or do you support them despite this at the cost of the rest of the comunities quality of living?


  This is not a new concept but one that was practice for thousands of years. Most see money and barter systems as advancements but I see them as a way to have power over your fellow man.

man will always find a way to have power over man. money does not change that ability it is probably pretty nuteral actually.  look up fuedalism and try to tell me that serfs were better off then we were and that they had more person freedom, and that vassals and lords didnt have EXTREME power over people.


Community will provide for the community because it is necessary for survival.  Even single celled bacteria will work with the collective to provide for the community.  Why is it that humans feel it necessary to rank everything with complete disregard for what is truly important.


this however opens a gaping whole for total and partial societital parasites. feeding on the fact they will be provided for simply because they are a part of this community.

the idea of comunism works only when all members performace is based solely on the good of the collective and complete disregard what is best for the self. and quite frankly thats not gonna happen.  on the other side of that coin is when people act with based solely on what is good for the self with complete disregard for the collective. this we are capable of but is a grossly ineffiecent way of living. some people  prosper while others get completely screwed, and in the end we all suffer a dimished quality of living and are unable to trust any one. however when we act  for what is best for the self with regard for the collective things tend to turn out better. not that it fixs all the problems but by acting with regard for both we get what we want and help others to do the same and intern afford us the ablity to get more of what we want.

the man who makes only enough to reasonably survive, and contibutes the remainder to those who are in need of some sort of help and for this virtuos being is loved by many, is more happy than the man who step on the backs of every1 he know in order amass copious sums of money but has no one to share it with and is despised by many for having manipulated them.


that said money it self is intrinsically neither good nor evil. rather it serves as a median through which both can be enacted. so really its about the money itself nor the amount you amass in your life but rather what you do with it. and while having money does buy you more freedom it can never buy you happiness, that one must go about earning on its own accord.


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Money [Re: hamandcheese]
    #8674611 -

I guess you simply believe capitalism is the best we can do.  You also assume the the system you so blindly defend will never collapse.  Currently we are a country 100% reliant on a fixed natural resource (oil).  Everything we have depends on using this substance to ship goods all over our country and the world.  If for some reason the oil stops coming you will soon realize we a screwed.  Removing this one element from our economy and we are once again completely reliant  on the people around us for survival because we cannot do it ourselves.  Think about the distance between food supply and population.  Not to mention running water, electricity and plumbing.  If we continue to assume the system will never fail we are doomed.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Money [Re: bluegold]
    #8674760 -

Quote:
Everything we have depends on using this substance to ship goods all over our country and the world.  If for some reason the oil stops coming you will soon realize we a screwed.


You don't need to tell us that it's bad to be reliant on oil. I think the whole world knows that.

Capitalism isn't the best we can do. Neither is communism. A blend of both is a good choice, and the relative amounts of each can be varied.

That's the system that the developed world has at the moment, and it works pretty good. Just how good is up for debate. But replacing it with an extreme socialist system (your suggestion) or an extreme capitalist system (libertarianism) would almost certainly make things worse.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Money [Re: bluegold]
    #8674991 -

i never said capitalism is the best we can do nor do i think that, i never made any mention of it actually. you simply made the assumiton that if i didnt think communism can succede  than i must believe capitalism is the solution. and thats assumtion is just not true.

your also misguided if you believe we have a true capitalist system. in fact most industrialized countries exhibit some form of "mixed system". this still does change the fact that EVERY system has its flawed, because anything we do is by its nature not 100% effiecent.  and as for the total collapse of the system... every system is open to this in some senses.

but remember that neccasity is the mother of innovation. in the event that the oil stop im pretty sure we'd come up with other ways of getting things done. (probably bio fuels in this case but idk) man is pretty good at build up dependancies but we are also pretty darn good at finding substiutes if the things we have become dependant on are no longer available....

your  "back to the basics" system is open to the same possability of failure. all other factors aside lets say there is a severe drought that comes about one growing season, and for many seasons to follow you recieve little to no rain. the crops dont grow, the livestock has nothin to eat and soon dies or are killed off for food. the drinking water begins to dry up. soon people begin to die and in the struggle to survive choas erupts.

btw im more likely to ride a bike or simply walk to my desinations so long as its reasonably feasible. i also grow small amounts of crops

If we continue to assume the system will never fail we are doomed.

thats about the only thing in that post i agree with. and this is precisely why we DO need to work together towards common goals. but at the same time inorder to get to that goal as quickly and easily as possible, we need some way of holding people accountable for their contributions to that goal. we can not ignore the fact that some people are less honest/or motivated than others those who ride the coat tails of everyone are hitching a free ride by holding the rest down and hindering progress.


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Money [Re: hamandcheese]
    #8675397 -

We all are doomed no matter which way we slice it because death waits for all of us and everything eventually.

Oh and politics is just around the corner for you newcomers.


--------------------
...or something






Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Money [Re: bluegold]
    #8675458 -

bluegold said:
I guess you simply believe capitalism is the best we can do.  You also assume the the system you so blindly defend will never collapse.  Currently we are a country 100% reliant on a fixed natural resource (oil).  Everything we have depends on using this substance to ship goods all over our country and the world.  If for some reason the oil stops coming you will soon realize we a screwed.  Removing this one element from our economy and we are once again completely reliant  on the people around us for survival because we cannot do it ourselves.  Think about the distance between food supply and population.  Not to mention running water, electricity and plumbing.  If we continue to assume the system will never fail we are doomed.


Explain to me how moving to s collectivist society would reduce our oil needs.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Money [Re: Redstorm]
    #8675759 -

yay, bluegold! you are right on dude! it is all about sharing and treating everything like the family that we all truly are. perhaps we become a bit stuck on the semantics of the situations at times in the english language but it is all about giving what you can and taking what you need; like you said about the sheep and fruit trees.
there is a definite separation from the land that has grown throughout the generations; of course some of us have grown up on farms or ranches but a vast majority of the population has never truly worked or communed with the earth. if you look at a place like new york, there is a 2-day supply of food for the entire area sitting in containers in their ports, what would happen if transportation came to a hault??? to where would our brothers and sisters run for food? hurricane katrina...being called thieves for obtaining food and other goods to try and stay alive, survival, right.
in order to survive and thrive we have to get back to basics, which is mother earth, pacha mama. sharing. loving. respecting. teaching. learning.

love love love to all :wink:


--------------------
all i know is love, and i find my heart infinite and everywhere!
  -hafiz

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Money [Re: fruitymel13]
    #8676013 -

your absolutely right that we SHOULD treat everyone with love and respect, however what we should and what we will do can to often be completely different things. you have to consider not only what is ideal but what is practical. and while sharing and collectivism are  great ideas we can not depend solely on them based on the faith that no one with manipulate the system. so to prevent this we put someone incharge, to eliminate or at least reduce that chance. however in doing so you give few the power over many, and sarcifice a certian level of eaquality that total collectivism depends on. Egalitarianism is best carried out in small groups, but that means live by the group die by the group.

as for katrina.... its called (natural) diaster for the reason that it fucks over everyone. how many farmers were happy to see their fields flooded and possibly rendered infertile for years to come. the key to a prosperous society is that it estabilsh a comfortable, reasonable, sustainable level of both independence and interdepence that most if not all can accept. getting back to the baisics doesn't necassarilly allow you to thrive or survive any better. infact it makes you more vulerable to things like natural diasters. if it weren't for the system we have now (however ineffiecent or corrupt it may seem to you)  those same people you talk about stealing and robbing to survive for the temporary period following would have fend for themselves for permanant survival. instead we try our best as a society to step in and help these people when they are in the need the most. we all share what we have with those who do don't through government funded programs and the taxes we all pay.  thats why i gladdly pay taxes, cuz when im sitting there with my head up my ass it sure would be nice to have a hand getting it out.


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Money [Re: fruitymel13]
    #8676060 -

To clarify I am not talk about a communist society! Just one the is not completely driven by money.  Our priorities have become so driven by money that people lack the skills necessary to survive without it.  We need to combine a self sustaining lifestyle with the current standards in America to lesson our chance of a complete meltdown.  If every community (neighborhood) had a garden and clean water supply we would lesson our demand on third parties.  This would also bring Americans back in touch with nature hopefully allow us to realize what we are all a part of.  We should dedicate our time to figuring out how to live without dependence of mass production.  What I am talking about is much less dangerous than relying on Iran and Saudi Arabia to continue to supply us our needs.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Money [Re: bluegold]
    #8676326 -

I think there is a need here to talk about the state of American communities. Neighborhoods. Neighbors. Personally, I have never before in my life felt a part of my community (excepting of course the four years I spent in Turkey, where neighbors are friends as a natural part of life).

For the first time in my life this year, we have neighbors who we really care about, and who seem to care about us just as much. We have helped each other through financial strains, and emotional issues. It is nice to know that in the event of an emergency of any kind, I can always run next door for a shoulder to cry on, or a helping hand.

In these times, where sometimes we don't even have enough gas money to do what we need to do, it is an amazing resource for us all to have neighbors trading food, and help, even money, and babysitting.

This is a big deal tome. Neighborhoods seem to have become not much more then a place where a bunch of people live. often we don't even know our neighbors first names. There is something seriously wrong with that. Whether or not this is the problem, or just a symptom of the problem, the state of American neighborhoods is an important factor when we discuss the economy.


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Money [Re: TheHappieHippies]
    #8676533 -

What you are talking about is where my quest to understand our current problems began.  I noticed that people had become more and more distant from each other.

  When I was a freshman in college I was in a dorm that was filled with people from foreign countries: German, France, Sweden, Turkey, etc.  I found a renewed sense of community living next to these people.  The next semester I lived in a dorm with almost all Americans and found people stuck to specific groups rarely letting anyone in.

  Since then I have noticed the same closed off behavior every time I moved.  I try an make a point of making some contact with everyone I come across.  I will smile and wave at complete strangers with the most common response of the look I call "Who the fuck are you".  Things brings me back to the point I have been trying to make in this thread.  We need to renew our sense of community through a common goal.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Jump to top Pages: | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 |  [ show all ]

Shop: Original Sensible Seeds Bulk Cannabis Seeds   North Spore North Spore Mushroom Grow Kits & Cultivation Supplies   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   Sporeworks.EU Spores for European Microscopy   MagicBag.co All-In-One Bags That Don't Suck

General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
Threaded Mode Threaded  Previous topic Previous  View all topics Index  Next topic Next 

Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* projecting thoughts (artificial entities) Monkah 1,755 11 11/12/02 04:59 PM
by FreakQlibrium
* The possibility of us just being artificial intelligence? BrainChemicals 1,325 8 04/19/07 06:14 AM
by trendal
* BEWARE ARTIFICIAL SYNCHRONICITY, and Psychic Vampires sumthinesoteric 6,603 12 03/31/04 01:10 PM
by Phoshaman
* "Artificial Intelligence"
( 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 all )		 raytrace 9,647 141 01/10/06 05:35 AM
by Seuss
* Artificial Intelligence and Free Will
( 1 2 3 all )		 xnevermore 3,948 41 11/25/02 12:39 AM
by Anonymous
* Artificial Life Created? OrgoneConclusion 871 7 10/09/07 10:43 AM
by freddurgan
* Artificial Meat
( 1 2 all )		 OrgoneConclusion 2,790 35 12/11/08 07:16 PM
by Icelander
* Artificial Life & Death
( 1 2 all )		 Swami 3,096 31 12/28/03 12:04 AM
by Zero7a1

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Middleman, DividedQuantum
4,657 topic views. 0 members, 72 guests and 12 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Show Images Only | Sort by Score | Print Topic ]
Search this thread:

Copyright 1997-2026 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.035 seconds spending 0.009 seconds on 16 queries.