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Mushrooms, Mycology and Psychedelics > Mushroom Cultivation
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Shop: North Spore Injection Grain Bag, North Spore Mushroom Grow Kits & Cultivation Supplies   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Super Sterilization (microwave)
    #7654820 -

Ok so I am not posting this as a TEK else i'd be flamed because i got something wrong...

I wanted to sterilize my coffee coir so i decided to stick it in an oven bag water (enough to make it kinda soupy) i then got all the air out and nuked it for like 10 min on high... Man shit got HOT!!.. without air in the bag, there can be no water vapor, only super heated water.. so shit got REALLY hot.. Now argue if you want but if i get that past 300f its sterile, so says modern science. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sterilization_(microbiology)

i then let it cool.. once cool, i held the bag in a way that allowed me to squeeze all the water to one side and twist the bag a few times to separate the excess water from the coir.. i then cut the bag at the twist and disposed of the water.. and used my now sterile coir to spawn to..


This is in now way an ideal way to do things.. and coir does not NEED to be sterilized, but i figured what the hell, it softened it faster and was easy.. that coir is now being devoured by the myc from my cake.. so i know that its OK to do this..

Anyone have any comments?


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Lazy Drywall Tek (no powdery mess)

This series will blow your mind and confirm what you already know to be true.
The Pharmacratic Inquisition
Best Thread Ever ! ! !

:pm: me if you have questions about lasers

Although i may advise others in a general way regarding all types of mushroom grows, and may even post question from other forums about growing "active" mushrooms, i only grow non-"active" mushrooms and edibles.

FeelFamily resident tech guru

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Re: Super Sterilization (microwave) [Re: Slimz]
    #7654844 -

Quote:
Now argue if you want but if i get that past 300f its sterile, so says modern science


Wrong. Unless you maintained that ~300F temp for 45-90 minutes, you did not in fact sterilize the coir. Otherwise we would only need to PC our jars for a couple of minutes.

Quote:
without air in the bag, there can be no water vapor, only super heated water


Why can't there be any water vapor? What you're doing is breaking down the water. What does air have to do with it? Anyway, that hardly matters.

Quote:
coir does not NEED to be sterilized


Correct. It doesn't even need to be pasteurized.


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I am become death, the destroyer of worlds.

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Re: Super Sterilization (microwave) [Re: thedefone]
    #7654859 -

could someone who knows the boiling point of water please comment?


--------------------
Lazy Drywall Tek (no powdery mess)

This series will blow your mind and confirm what you already know to be true.
The Pharmacratic Inquisition
Best Thread Ever ! ! !

:pm: me if you have questions about lasers

Although i may advise others in a general way regarding all types of mushroom grows, and may even post question from other forums about growing "active" mushrooms, i only grow non-"active" mushrooms and edibles.

FeelFamily resident tech guru

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Re: Super Sterilization (microwave) [Re: Slimz]
    #7654885 -

I made this post especially for you Slimz.

Enjoy.

Quote:
Pressure Cookers reach a temperature of 250o F or 121o C at a pressure of 15 pounds and requires 30 minutes for the process to be effective.


The boiling point of water is 212 degrees Fahrenheit.

Quote:
A widely-used method for heat sterilization is the autoclave. Autoclaves commonly use steam heated to 121 °C (250 °F), at 103 kPa (15 psi) above atmospheric pressure. Solid surfaces are effectively sterilized when heated this temperature for at least 15 minutes or to 134 °C for a minimum of 3 minutes. However, liquids and instruments packed in layers of cloth require a much longer time to reach a sterilizing temperature. After sterilization, autoclaved liquids must be cooled slowly to avoid boiling over when the pressure is released


The boiling point of water is 212 degrees Fahrenheit.


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I am become death, the destroyer of worlds.

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Re: Super Sterilization (microwave) [Re: thedefone]
    #7654917 -

Yes and this is reaching well over 350. where are your numbers for that?


--------------------
Lazy Drywall Tek (no powdery mess)

This series will blow your mind and confirm what you already know to be true.
The Pharmacratic Inquisition
Best Thread Ever ! ! !

:pm: me if you have questions about lasers

Although i may advise others in a general way regarding all types of mushroom grows, and may even post question from other forums about growing "active" mushrooms, i only grow non-"active" mushrooms and edibles.

FeelFamily resident tech guru

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Re: Super Sterilization (microwave) [Re: Slimz]
    #7654944 -

http://www.aseptech.com/uht.htm



--------------------
Lazy Drywall Tek (no powdery mess)

This series will blow your mind and confirm what you already know to be true.
The Pharmacratic Inquisition
Best Thread Ever ! ! !

:pm: me if you have questions about lasers

Although i may advise others in a general way regarding all types of mushroom grows, and may even post question from other forums about growing "active" mushrooms, i only grow non-"active" mushrooms and edibles.

FeelFamily resident tech guru

Edited by Slimz (11/19/07 04:21 PM)

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Re: Super Sterilization (microwave) [Re: Slimz]
    #7654997 -

Quote:
Extraneous biological matter or grime may shield organisms from the property intended to kill them, whether it physical or chemical.


Quote:
For effective sterilization, steam needs to penetrate the autoclave load uniformly, so an autoclave must not be overcrowded, and the lids of bottles and containers must be left ajar. During the initial heating of the chamber, residual air must be allowed to escape as steam enters the autoclave chamber; otherwise the final temperature will be less than that of the entering steam. Indicators should be placed in the most difficult places for the steam to reach to ensure that steam actually penetrates there.


On the other hand,



But I'm still not convinced. You would have to maintain that temperature at the core otherwise you aren't getting the job done. 350 degrees is hot. The surface would be apocalypse hot. This whole conversation is moot anyways.


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I am become death, the destroyer of worlds.

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Re: Super Sterilization (microwave) [Re: thedefone]
    #7655029 -

apocalypse hot.. no... you bake a pizza at 450... the oven bag can certainly handle it (and did just fine) and i have answered my own question. a few minutes at 350 and its steril.. even at normal pressure... guess i should have just read a little more first.. thanks for the motivation (proving you wrong that is)


--------------------
Lazy Drywall Tek (no powdery mess)

This series will blow your mind and confirm what you already know to be true.
The Pharmacratic Inquisition
Best Thread Ever ! ! !

:pm: me if you have questions about lasers

Although i may advise others in a general way regarding all types of mushroom grows, and may even post question from other forums about growing "active" mushrooms, i only grow non-"active" mushrooms and edibles.

FeelFamily resident tech guru

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Re: Super Sterilization (microwave) [Re: thedefone]
    #7655031 -

Quote:
the heat treatment of milk also results in a number of other reactions and changes.

The main changes are:

Inactivation of enzymes
Denaturation and complex formation
Maillard browning reactions
Loss of vitamins
Loss of amino acids


Precisely why we pasteurize, and not sterilize.


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I am become death, the destroyer of worlds.

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Re: Super Sterilization (microwave) [Re: thedefone]
    #7655231 -

it is impossible for the liquid water to have gone over 100 ºC. For water to boil at over that temperature you need higher pressure and oven bags can't have a higher than atmosphere pressure inside them (at least not much higher) because they would burst. That is why the walls of a PC are thick, so they can hold all that pressure inside them.

So any liquid water inside that bag would not have gone over 100ºC.

In a conventional oven, the temperature measured is that of the air inside the oven, which can go over 100ºC since it is a mixture of gasses heated by a metallic element. Those hot gasses heat the whole thing you are cooking, heating the food, the dish and everything to that temperature, or to boiling point, whatever is lower (which is why the watery juices in a pan will be 100º while the actual thing you are roasting will be over that temp.

Microwaves on the other hand, heat the actual water of the dish directly (and to a lesser extent other molecules) and then that heat spreads to the rest of the molecules to the dish. So in the microwaves case, the food will not heat over 100º or not much more (maybe a couple of degrees due to superheating)

The temperatures on your microwave dial are not actual temperatures but the equivalent temperature in a conventional oven compared to the microwaves power setting.

So basically by microwaving you are doing the same as boiling really, not the same as pressure cooking.

Ps: did you actually measure with a thermometre what the temperatures were?


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Newcomers guide-----> For all things shroomy

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Re: Super Sterilization (microwave) [Re: Nibin]
    #7655291 -

A microwave will heat any non symmetric molecule and it is very possible to heat substances far above the boiling point of water. I've used microwaves to vaporize plastics in a material testing lab I used to work in.

In fact the the UL testing procedure for new microwaves includes a test where a potato is cooked to ignition and the the unit must survive the burning without spreading the fire.

Edited by Uns4ne (11/19/07 05:26 PM)

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Re: Super Sterilization (microwave) [Re: Uns4ne]
    #7655428 -

Microwaves heat any polar material, (even if they are symmetric, a water molecule is symmetric but has an electrical charge) but, if there is any water present, or better said, if water is a major component of the item, until all the water has evaporated it will not heat much over 100ºC.

The plastic will go over 100ºC because it does not contain water, and the potato, once it has heated for long enough to dry out (not that potatoes contain that much water anyways) it will light up, as most of the molecules of the potato are polar.


This is all just an issue of state changes. The liquid water in a bowl of water and ice will never go below 0ºC even if the ice is much colder than that. Water at 1 atm pressure can only go below 0ºC if it changes state and freezes. The same happens with water evaporation.


--------------------
Newcomers guide-----> For all things shroomy

Edited by Nibin (11/19/07 05:46 PM)

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Re: Super Sterilization (microwave) [Re: Nibin]
    #7655515 -

You can burn the shit out of a bagel too. Boy it smells like shit. Hhaha. Just something that was experimented in my fraternity. Throw that in a room full of guys who haven't slept in a couple of days and they wake up. ahhaha.

Slimz, why do you always get into these complex arguments. I'm sure your bag of coir, and stuff, got what it needed regardless of it actually got sterilized fully. I just wouldn't want to put anything in my microwave for longer than 2 min on high!! PC or pasteurizing are my friends.

-CK


--------------------
Bulk grower with "some" success.

  Cloning Machine 
   
Nice Lids

A few pics of my DT setup

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Re: Super Sterilization (microwave) [Re: Cheesekiller]
    #7655680 -

Nibin

Your argument is correct when it comes to things being heated by ambient energy. Unfortunately my experience tells me different when it comes to microwave energy. I hope to formulate a hypothesis by tomorrow but I'm burnt for today.

P.s. Eggs give more bang for your buck.

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Re: Super Sterilization (microwave) [Re: Uns4ne]
    #7655712 -

microwaves have no business in the mycology hobby, right? so isn't it that simple...? =)


--------------------
Life is one big road with lots of signs,
So when you're ridin' through the ruts,
Don't you complicate your mind.

Flee from hate, mischief and jealousy
Don't bury your thoughts,
Put your vision to reality, yeah!

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Re: Super Sterilization (microwave) [Re: Uns4ne]
    #7655877 -

Temperature is the way we have of measuring molecule vibration.

When heat is transferred via ambient, as happens in ovens, the heat is transmitted via bumps between molecules, very much as a bumper car stall in the fairground, one car speeds up and starts bumping into others and transmitting part of it's energy to others.

The way microwaves work is diferent. Microwaves emmit an electromagnetic of a certain wavelength. This electromagnetic wave makes the molecules it hits in the foodstuff to align themselves in one certain way, then, as the wave stops affecting a specific molecule they revert to their normal, chaotic alignment. Because anything that creates order in a substance needs energy to sustain that order (laws of entropy) when the substance reverts to it's chaotic disposition this energy has to go somewhere and transforms into heat (more vibration of the molecules)

Due to the fact that the molecules have to react to an electromagnetic wave, molecules with an electrical charge (polar molecules) have stronger interactions with the waves than non-charged molecules (apolar molecules).

Also, because these molecules not only have to react to the wave but physically move, the heating is also faster with liquids instead of solids, because in a solid the molecules can't rotate to align even if they "want" to.


--------------------
Newcomers guide-----> For all things shroomy

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Re: Super Sterilization (microwave) [Re: Nibin]
    #7655940 -

I have no idea if the coir in question was sterilized, but my friend Google tells me water can be heated above 100c and still remain water.

Why is it possible to heat water above its boiling temperature?

Let's talk only about pure water, and only water at or close to atmospheric pressure.

At the surface between air and water, or between steam and water, water boils at 100 °C. Water boils at 100 °C if there is already a bubble of steam (or air) present. But in the absence of bubbles, water can be heated above 100 °C. There are two reasons. First, to make a stable bubble, a lot of water molecules in the same small area must form steam. This is improbable. Second, it takes extra energy to form the bubble itself: energy to push the water out of the way, and energy to make the surface between water and steam. Once a bubble forms (a process called nucleation), it is easy to increase its size. So the superheated water nearby evaporates very quickly, producing a large volume of steam.


http://www.phys.unsw.edu.au/~jw/superheating.html#when

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Re: Super Sterilization (microwave) [Re: thedeez]
    #7655963 -

Superheating only allows water to go a couple of degrees over 100.

As you have quoted well, water needs a tad bit more energy to form steam bubbles especially when no nucleation sites are present. But as you raise the temp of the water it contains more and more extra energy at it gets to a point that it has enough energy on its own to form the bubbles and boils anyway.


--------------------
Newcomers guide-----> For all things shroomy

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Re: Super Sterilization (microwave) [Re: Nibin]
    #7656019 -

Everybody knows about the pure distilled water in a clean, smooth container being able to be superheated slightly above 100C and remain liquid. There's dozens of demonstrations on youtube and others. However, coir or anything else mixed with water can NOT be heated above 100C without the water changing state to a gas. It doesn't matter if there's any air above the water or not.
RR


--------------------
Download Let's Grow Mushrooms



semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat

"I've never had a failed experiment.  I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work."
Thomas Edison

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Re: Super Sterilization (microwave) [Re: thedeez]
    #7656022 -

The next sentence:

Quote:
Smooth containers do not have bubbles of air clinging to their sides. Rough walled or scratched containers may hold microscopic bubbles in their cracks. These become nucleii for boiling. Even a crack that is fully filled with water can be a boiling nucleus because it reduces the required area of the water-vapour surface.



Coir/Coffee is going to have bubbles in it. I find it extremely unlikely that all of the air was removed from the bag, thus leaving innumerable tiny bubbles within the Coir/coffee providing boiling nucleii. Not to mention that this was by no means pure water. I doubt that it was even distilled. Let's take it a step further and say that his water did, in fact superheat.

Quote:
Once a bubble forms (a process called nucleation), it is easy to increase its size. So the superheated water nearby evaporates very quickly, producing a large volume of steam.


i.e. it explodes.


--------------------


I am become death, the destroyer of worlds.

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Mushrooms, Mycology and Psychedelics > Mushroom Cultivation
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