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Slimz
.-~*´`*·~-experience-~*´`*·~-.




Registered: 10/03/07
Posts: 3,588
Loc: Maryland
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Super Sterilization (microwave)
#7654820 - 11/19/07 01:42 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Ok so I am not posting this as a TEK else i'd be flamed because i got something wrong...
I wanted to sterilize my coffee coir so i decided to stick it in an oven bag water (enough to make it kinda soupy) i then got all the air out and nuked it for like 10 min on high... Man shit got HOT!!.. without air in the bag, there can be no water vapor, only super heated water.. so shit got REALLY hot.. Now argue if you want but if i get that past 300f its sterile, so says modern science. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sterilization_(microbiology)
i then let it cool.. once cool, i held the bag in a way that allowed me to squeeze all the water to one side and twist the bag a few times to separate the excess water from the coir.. i then cut the bag at the twist and disposed of the water.. and used my now sterile coir to spawn to..
This is in now way an ideal way to do things.. and coir does not NEED to be sterilized, but i figured what the hell, it softened it faster and was easy.. that coir is now being devoured by the myc from my cake.. so i know that its OK to do this..
Anyone have any comments?
-------------------- Lazy Drywall Tek (no powdery mess) This series will blow your mind and confirm what you already know to be true. The Pharmacratic Inquisition Best Thread Ever ! ! !
me if you have questions about lasers Although i may advise others in a general way regarding all types of mushroom grows, and may even post question from other forums about growing "active" mushrooms, i only grow non-"active" mushrooms and edibles. FeelFamily resident tech guru
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thedefone
deus ex machina

Registered: 10/06/07
Posts: 1,883
Loc: Gondwana
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Re: Super Sterilization (microwave) [Re: Slimz]
#7654844 - 11/19/07 01:49 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Now argue if you want but if i get that past 300f its sterile, so says modern science
Wrong. Unless you maintained that ~300F temp for 45-90 minutes, you did not in fact sterilize the coir. Otherwise we would only need to PC our jars for a couple of minutes.
Quote:
without air in the bag, there can be no water vapor, only super heated water
Why can't there be any water vapor? What you're doing is breaking down the water. What does air have to do with it? Anyway, that hardly matters.
Quote:
coir does not NEED to be sterilized
Correct. It doesn't even need to be pasteurized.
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I am become death, the destroyer of worlds.
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Slimz
.-~*´`*·~-experience-~*´`*·~-.




Registered: 10/03/07
Posts: 3,588
Loc: Maryland
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Re: Super Sterilization (microwave) [Re: thedefone]
#7654859 - 11/19/07 01:55 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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could someone who knows the boiling point of water please comment?
-------------------- Lazy Drywall Tek (no powdery mess) This series will blow your mind and confirm what you already know to be true. The Pharmacratic Inquisition Best Thread Ever ! ! !
me if you have questions about lasers Although i may advise others in a general way regarding all types of mushroom grows, and may even post question from other forums about growing "active" mushrooms, i only grow non-"active" mushrooms and edibles. FeelFamily resident tech guru
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thedefone
deus ex machina

Registered: 10/06/07
Posts: 1,883
Loc: Gondwana
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Re: Super Sterilization (microwave) [Re: Slimz]
#7654885 - 11/19/07 02:03 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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I made this post especially for you Slimz.
Enjoy.
Quote:
Pressure Cookers reach a temperature of 250o F or 121o C at a pressure of 15 pounds and requires 30 minutes for the process to be effective.
The boiling point of water is 212 degrees Fahrenheit.
Quote:
A widely-used method for heat sterilization is the autoclave. Autoclaves commonly use steam heated to 121 °C (250 °F), at 103 kPa (15 psi) above atmospheric pressure. Solid surfaces are effectively sterilized when heated this temperature for at least 15 minutes or to 134 °C for a minimum of 3 minutes. However, liquids and instruments packed in layers of cloth require a much longer time to reach a sterilizing temperature. After sterilization, autoclaved liquids must be cooled slowly to avoid boiling over when the pressure is released
The boiling point of water is 212 degrees Fahrenheit.
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I am become death, the destroyer of worlds.
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Slimz
.-~*´`*·~-experience-~*´`*·~-.




Registered: 10/03/07
Posts: 3,588
Loc: Maryland
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Re: Super Sterilization (microwave) [Re: thedefone]
#7654917 - 11/19/07 02:10 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Yes and this is reaching well over 350. where are your numbers for that?
-------------------- Lazy Drywall Tek (no powdery mess) This series will blow your mind and confirm what you already know to be true. The Pharmacratic Inquisition Best Thread Ever ! ! !
me if you have questions about lasers Although i may advise others in a general way regarding all types of mushroom grows, and may even post question from other forums about growing "active" mushrooms, i only grow non-"active" mushrooms and edibles. FeelFamily resident tech guru
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Slimz
.-~*´`*·~-experience-~*´`*·~-.




Registered: 10/03/07
Posts: 3,588
Loc: Maryland
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Re: Super Sterilization (microwave) [Re: Slimz]
#7654944 - 11/19/07 02:15 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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-------------------- Lazy Drywall Tek (no powdery mess) This series will blow your mind and confirm what you already know to be true. The Pharmacratic Inquisition Best Thread Ever ! ! !
me if you have questions about lasers Although i may advise others in a general way regarding all types of mushroom grows, and may even post question from other forums about growing "active" mushrooms, i only grow non-"active" mushrooms and edibles. FeelFamily resident tech guru
Edited by Slimz (11/19/07 02:21 PM)
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thedefone
deus ex machina

Registered: 10/06/07
Posts: 1,883
Loc: Gondwana
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Re: Super Sterilization (microwave) [Re: Slimz]
#7654997 - 11/19/07 02:28 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Extraneous biological matter or grime may shield organisms from the property intended to kill them, whether it physical or chemical.
Quote:
For effective sterilization, steam needs to penetrate the autoclave load uniformly, so an autoclave must not be overcrowded, and the lids of bottles and containers must be left ajar. During the initial heating of the chamber, residual air must be allowed to escape as steam enters the autoclave chamber; otherwise the final temperature will be less than that of the entering steam. Indicators should be placed in the most difficult places for the steam to reach to ensure that steam actually penetrates there.
On the other hand,

But I'm still not convinced. You would have to maintain that temperature at the core otherwise you aren't getting the job done. 350 degrees is hot. The surface would be apocalypse hot. This whole conversation is moot anyways.
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I am become death, the destroyer of worlds.
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Slimz
.-~*´`*·~-experience-~*´`*·~-.




Registered: 10/03/07
Posts: 3,588
Loc: Maryland
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Re: Super Sterilization (microwave) [Re: thedefone]
#7655029 - 11/19/07 02:34 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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apocalypse hot.. no... you bake a pizza at 450... the oven bag can certainly handle it (and did just fine) and i have answered my own question. a few minutes at 350 and its steril.. even at normal pressure... guess i should have just read a little more first.. thanks for the motivation (proving you wrong that is)
-------------------- Lazy Drywall Tek (no powdery mess) This series will blow your mind and confirm what you already know to be true. The Pharmacratic Inquisition Best Thread Ever ! ! !
me if you have questions about lasers Although i may advise others in a general way regarding all types of mushroom grows, and may even post question from other forums about growing "active" mushrooms, i only grow non-"active" mushrooms and edibles. FeelFamily resident tech guru
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thedefone
deus ex machina

Registered: 10/06/07
Posts: 1,883
Loc: Gondwana
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Re: Super Sterilization (microwave) [Re: thedefone]
#7655031 - 11/19/07 02:34 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
the heat treatment of milk also results in a number of other reactions and changes.
The main changes are:
Inactivation of enzymes Denaturation and complex formation Maillard browning reactions Loss of vitamins Loss of amino acids
Precisely why we pasteurize, and not sterilize.
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I am become death, the destroyer of worlds.
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Nibin
Getting there



Registered: 11/29/05
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Re: Super Sterilization (microwave) [Re: thedefone]
#7655231 - 11/19/07 03:07 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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it is impossible for the liquid water to have gone over 100 ºC. For water to boil at over that temperature you need higher pressure and oven bags can't have a higher than atmosphere pressure inside them (at least not much higher) because they would burst. That is why the walls of a PC are thick, so they can hold all that pressure inside them.
So any liquid water inside that bag would not have gone over 100ºC.
In a conventional oven, the temperature measured is that of the air inside the oven, which can go over 100ºC since it is a mixture of gasses heated by a metallic element. Those hot gasses heat the whole thing you are cooking, heating the food, the dish and everything to that temperature, or to boiling point, whatever is lower (which is why the watery juices in a pan will be 100º while the actual thing you are roasting will be over that temp.
Microwaves on the other hand, heat the actual water of the dish directly (and to a lesser extent other molecules) and then that heat spreads to the rest of the molecules to the dish. So in the microwaves case, the food will not heat over 100º or not much more (maybe a couple of degrees due to superheating)
The temperatures on your microwave dial are not actual temperatures but the equivalent temperature in a conventional oven compared to the microwaves power setting.
So basically by microwaving you are doing the same as boiling really, not the same as pressure cooking.
Ps: did you actually measure with a thermometre what the temperatures were?
-------------------- Newcomers guide-----> For all things shroomy
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Uns4ne
I Fail At Life




Registered: 10/17/07
Posts: 112
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Re: Super Sterilization (microwave) [Re: Nibin]
#7655291 - 11/19/07 03:17 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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A microwave will heat any non symmetric molecule and it is very possible to heat substances far above the boiling point of water. I've used microwaves to vaporize plastics in a material testing lab I used to work in.
In fact the the UL testing procedure for new microwaves includes a test where a potato is cooked to ignition and the the unit must survive the burning without spreading the fire.
Edited by Uns4ne (11/19/07 03:26 PM)
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Nibin
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Re: Super Sterilization (microwave) [Re: Uns4ne]
#7655428 - 11/19/07 03:46 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Microwaves heat any polar material, (even if they are symmetric, a water molecule is symmetric but has an electrical charge) but, if there is any water present, or better said, if water is a major component of the item, until all the water has evaporated it will not heat much over 100ºC.
The plastic will go over 100ºC because it does not contain water, and the potato, once it has heated for long enough to dry out (not that potatoes contain that much water anyways) it will light up, as most of the molecules of the potato are polar.
This is all just an issue of state changes. The liquid water in a bowl of water and ice will never go below 0ºC even if the ice is much colder than that. Water at 1 atm pressure can only go below 0ºC if it changes state and freezes. The same happens with water evaporation.
-------------------- Newcomers guide-----> For all things shroomy
Edited by Nibin (11/19/07 03:46 PM)
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Cheesekiller
Mad Scientist



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Re: Super Sterilization (microwave) [Re: Nibin]
#7655515 - 11/19/07 04:03 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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You can burn the shit out of a bagel too. Boy it smells like shit. Hhaha. Just something that was experimented in my fraternity. Throw that in a room full of guys who haven't slept in a couple of days and they wake up. ahhaha.
Slimz, why do you always get into these complex arguments. I'm sure your bag of coir, and stuff, got what it needed regardless of it actually got sterilized fully. I just wouldn't want to put anything in my microwave for longer than 2 min on high!! PC or pasteurizing are my friends.
-CK
-------------------- Bulk grower with "some" success. Cloning Machine Nice Lids A few pics of my DT setup
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Uns4ne
I Fail At Life




Registered: 10/17/07
Posts: 112
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Re: Super Sterilization (microwave) [Re: Cheesekiller]
#7655680 - 11/19/07 04:22 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Nibin
Your argument is correct when it comes to things being heated by ambient energy. Unfortunately my experience tells me different when it comes to microwave energy. I hope to formulate a hypothesis by tomorrow but I'm burnt for today.
P.s. Eggs give more bang for your buck.
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VisionsToReality
RIBBONS


Registered: 09/22/07
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Re: Super Sterilization (microwave) [Re: Uns4ne]
#7655712 - 11/19/07 04:31 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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microwaves have no business in the mycology hobby, right? so isn't it that simple...? =)
-------------------- Life is one big road with lots of signs, So when you're ridin' through the ruts, Don't you complicate your mind. Flee from hate, mischief and jealousy Don't bury your thoughts, Put your vision to reality, yeah!
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Nibin
Getting there



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Re: Super Sterilization (microwave) [Re: Uns4ne]
#7655877 - 11/19/07 05:04 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Temperature is the way we have of measuring molecule vibration.
When heat is transferred via ambient, as happens in ovens, the heat is transmitted via bumps between molecules, very much as a bumper car stall in the fairground, one car speeds up and starts bumping into others and transmitting part of it's energy to others.
The way microwaves work is diferent. Microwaves emmit an electromagnetic of a certain wavelength. This electromagnetic wave makes the molecules it hits in the foodstuff to align themselves in one certain way, then, as the wave stops affecting a specific molecule they revert to their normal, chaotic alignment. Because anything that creates order in a substance needs energy to sustain that order (laws of entropy) when the substance reverts to it's chaotic disposition this energy has to go somewhere and transforms into heat (more vibration of the molecules)
Due to the fact that the molecules have to react to an electromagnetic wave, molecules with an electrical charge (polar molecules) have stronger interactions with the waves than non-charged molecules (apolar molecules).
Also, because these molecules not only have to react to the wave but physically move, the heating is also faster with liquids instead of solids, because in a solid the molecules can't rotate to align even if they "want" to.
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thedeez



Registered: 08/31/06
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Re: Super Sterilization (microwave) [Re: Nibin]
#7655940 - 11/19/07 05:16 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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I have no idea if the coir in question was sterilized, but my friend Google tells me water can be heated above 100c and still remain water.
Why is it possible to heat water above its boiling temperature?
Let's talk only about pure water, and only water at or close to atmospheric pressure.
At the surface between air and water, or between steam and water, water boils at 100 °C. Water boils at 100 °C if there is already a bubble of steam (or air) present. But in the absence of bubbles, water can be heated above 100 °C. There are two reasons. First, to make a stable bubble, a lot of water molecules in the same small area must form steam. This is improbable. Second, it takes extra energy to form the bubble itself: energy to push the water out of the way, and energy to make the surface between water and steam. Once a bubble forms (a process called nucleation), it is easy to increase its size. So the superheated water nearby evaporates very quickly, producing a large volume of steam.
http://www.phys.unsw.edu.au/~jw/superheating.html#when
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Nibin
Getting there



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Re: Super Sterilization (microwave) [Re: thedeez]
#7655963 - 11/19/07 05:21 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Superheating only allows water to go a couple of degrees over 100.
As you have quoted well, water needs a tad bit more energy to form steam bubbles especially when no nucleation sites are present. But as you raise the temp of the water it contains more and more extra energy at it gets to a point that it has enough energy on its own to form the bubbles and boils anyway.
-------------------- Newcomers guide-----> For all things shroomy
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RogerRabbit
Bans for Pleasure



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Re: Super Sterilization (microwave) [Re: Nibin]
#7656019 - 11/19/07 05:35 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Everybody knows about the pure distilled water in a clean, smooth container being able to be superheated slightly above 100C and remain liquid. There's dozens of demonstrations on youtube and others. However, coir or anything else mixed with water can NOT be heated above 100C without the water changing state to a gas. It doesn't matter if there's any air above the water or not. RR
-------------------- Download Let's Grow Mushrooms semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat "I've never had a failed experiment. I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work." Thomas Edison
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thedefone
deus ex machina

Registered: 10/06/07
Posts: 1,883
Loc: Gondwana
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Re: Super Sterilization (microwave) [Re: thedeez]
#7656022 - 11/19/07 05:36 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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The next sentence:
Quote:
Smooth containers do not have bubbles of air clinging to their sides. Rough walled or scratched containers may hold microscopic bubbles in their cracks. These become nucleii for boiling. Even a crack that is fully filled with water can be a boiling nucleus because it reduces the required area of the water-vapour surface.
Coir/Coffee is going to have bubbles in it. I find it extremely unlikely that all of the air was removed from the bag, thus leaving innumerable tiny bubbles within the Coir/coffee providing boiling nucleii. Not to mention that this was by no means pure water. I doubt that it was even distilled. Let's take it a step further and say that his water did, in fact superheat.
Quote:
Once a bubble forms (a process called nucleation), it is easy to increase its size. So the superheated water nearby evaporates very quickly, producing a large volume of steam.
i.e. it explodes.
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I am become death, the destroyer of worlds.
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Nibin
Getting there



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Re: Super Sterilization (microwave) [Re: RogerRabbit]
#7656032 - 11/19/07 05:39 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
RogerRabbit said: Everybody knows about the pure distilled water in a clean, smooth container being able to be superheated slightly above 100C and remain liquid. There's dozens of demonstrations on youtube and others. However, coir or anything else mixed with water can NOT be heated above 100C without the water changing state to a gas. It doesn't matter if there's any air above the water or not. RR
As RR already said, It doesn't matter even if the water was deionized, let alone destilled. The surface of the coir would produce countless nucleation sites
-------------------- Newcomers guide-----> For all things shroomy
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JBT17
Stranger

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Re: Super Sterilization (microwave) [Re: Nibin]
#7656046 - 11/19/07 05:43 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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so if i put my substrate (BRF)into a tuberware container completely sealed in the microwave, will it explode? Even though some of you are skeptics, if you absolutely had to use a microwave AND BRF and a spore syringe how would you go about doing it?
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thedeez



Registered: 08/31/06
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Re: Super Sterilization (microwave) [Re: RogerRabbit]
#7656060 - 11/19/07 05:47 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
RogerRabbit said: Everybody knows about the pure distilled water in a clean, smooth container being able to be superheated slightly above 100C and remain liquid. There's dozens of demonstrations on youtube and others. However, coir or anything else mixed with water can NOT be heated above 100C without the water changing state to a gas. It doesn't matter if there's any air above the water or not. RR
Well I hardly think everybody knows it...
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RogerRabbit
Bans for Pleasure



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Re: Super Sterilization (microwave) [Re: thedeez]
#7656070 - 11/19/07 05:51 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
if you absolutely had to use a microwave AND BRF and a spore syringe how would you go about doing it?
By taking up another hobby.
You can not heat water to 100C in brf jars or tupperware. You'll want to use glass jars, and a kettle of water on the stove to sterilize your brf jars. A pressure cooker is not required, but don't even look at the microwave. RR
-------------------- Download Let's Grow Mushrooms semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat "I've never had a failed experiment. I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work." Thomas Edison
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Nibin
Getting there



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Re: Super Sterilization (microwave) [Re: JBT17]
#7656252 - 11/19/07 06:35 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
JBT17 said: so if i put my substrate (BRF)into a tuberware container completely sealed in the microwave, will it explode? Even though some of you are skeptics, if you absolutely had to use a microwave AND BRF and a spore syringe how would you go about doing it?
And it won't explode as the substrate will provide more that enough nucleation sites so the water will never be able to superheat
-------------------- Newcomers guide-----> For all things shroomy
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thedefone
deus ex machina

Registered: 10/06/07
Posts: 1,883
Loc: Gondwana
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Re: Super Sterilization (microwave) [Re: RogerRabbit]
#7656253 - 11/19/07 06:35 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Well. I got out an oven bag, and loaded it with 2 cups of coir, and a half a cup of worm castings (as a substitute for the coffee, which I don't drink) and mixed it with water to make it "kinda soupy" and microwaved it for 15 minutes. I assume that when Slimz was sterilizing his bulk he had substantially more than 2 & 1/2 cups of Sub. When the little bell rang I took it out and, Good God Almighty was it hot. So I got out my handy-dandy new-fangled thermometer... 350F? Not even close. 210F at the core. That was more time and less sub.
I did my best to really recreate, as well as I could, the conditions described in Slimz' post. In reality, microwaving your bulk is probably better than not doing anything to it, but it's not making it sterile (as far as these parameters are concerned.) In fact, I have mic pasteurized my bulk subs in the past. But I wont be attempting to sterilize my grains, or bulk subs, or anything with the microwave anytime soon.
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I am become death, the destroyer of worlds.
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thedefone
deus ex machina

Registered: 10/06/07
Posts: 1,883
Loc: Gondwana
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Re: Super Sterilization (microwave) [Re: thedefone]
#7656261 - 11/19/07 06:37 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
And it won't explode as the substrate will provide more that enough nucleation sites so the water will never be able to superheat
That's my point precisely. I meant that in the context of the second quote.
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I am become death, the destroyer of worlds.
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Slimz
.-~*´`*·~-experience-~*´`*·~-.




Registered: 10/03/07
Posts: 3,588
Loc: Maryland
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Re: Super Sterilization (microwave) [Re: thedefone]
#7658124 - 11/20/07 08:30 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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wow.. please do the experiment yourself.
1 bag with no air, just water.. the other with water and air
one will super heat and the other wont. period.. thats how it works...
-------------------- Lazy Drywall Tek (no powdery mess) This series will blow your mind and confirm what you already know to be true. The Pharmacratic Inquisition Best Thread Ever ! ! !
me if you have questions about lasers Although i may advise others in a general way regarding all types of mushroom grows, and may even post question from other forums about growing "active" mushrooms, i only grow non-"active" mushrooms and edibles. FeelFamily resident tech guru
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Nibin
Getting there



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Re: Super Sterilization (microwave) [Re: Slimz]
#7658132 - 11/20/07 08:34 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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If the bag contains anything but water, it will not superheat.
if it contains no water whatsoever it might heat to over 100ºC
-------------------- Newcomers guide-----> For all things shroomy
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thedefone
deus ex machina

Registered: 10/06/07
Posts: 1,883
Loc: Gondwana
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Re: Super Sterilization (microwave) [Re: Nibin]
#7658166 - 11/20/07 09:05 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
wow.. please do the experiment yourself.
1 bag with no air, just water.. the other with water and air
one will super heat and the other wont. period.. thats how it works...
Wow.. But, that has absolutely nothing to do with anything. Do one with no air, just water; another with water and air; and another with coffee/coir and water. Only one will super heat and the others won't. Period. That's how it works.
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I am become death, the destroyer of worlds.
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Slimz
.-~*´`*·~-experience-~*´`*·~-.




Registered: 10/03/07
Posts: 3,588
Loc: Maryland
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Re: Super Sterilization (microwave) [Re: thedefone]
#7658249 - 11/20/07 09:47 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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i JUST did it again (with some coir) and got it to 340 in 7 min
-------------------- Lazy Drywall Tek (no powdery mess) This series will blow your mind and confirm what you already know to be true. The Pharmacratic Inquisition Best Thread Ever ! ! !
me if you have questions about lasers Although i may advise others in a general way regarding all types of mushroom grows, and may even post question from other forums about growing "active" mushrooms, i only grow non-"active" mushrooms and edibles. FeelFamily resident tech guru
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Nibin
Getting there



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Re: Super Sterilization (microwave) [Re: Slimz]
#7658253 - 11/20/07 09:48 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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how are you measuring temps?
-------------------- Newcomers guide-----> For all things shroomy
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Slimz
.-~*´`*·~-experience-~*´`*·~-.




Registered: 10/03/07
Posts: 3,588
Loc: Maryland
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Re: Super Sterilization (microwave) [Re: Nibin]
#7658349 - 11/20/07 10:18 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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with a meat thermometer.. i heat it up.. pull it out, then kinda fold the bag in half with the thermometer in the middle
-------------------- Lazy Drywall Tek (no powdery mess) This series will blow your mind and confirm what you already know to be true. The Pharmacratic Inquisition Best Thread Ever ! ! !
me if you have questions about lasers Although i may advise others in a general way regarding all types of mushroom grows, and may even post question from other forums about growing "active" mushrooms, i only grow non-"active" mushrooms and edibles. FeelFamily resident tech guru
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Slimz
.-~*´`*·~-experience-~*´`*·~-.




Registered: 10/03/07
Posts: 3,588
Loc: Maryland
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Re: Super Sterilization (microwave) [Re: Slimz]
#7658383 - 11/20/07 10:31 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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http://www.energyquest.ca.gov/story/chapter11.html
Deep under the surface, water sometimes makes its way close to the hot rock and turns into boiling hot water or into steam. The hot water can reach temperatures of more than 300 degrees Fahrenheit (148 degrees Celsius). This is hotter than boiling water (212 degrees F / 100 degrees C). It doesn't turn into steam because it is not in contact with the air.
-------------------- Lazy Drywall Tek (no powdery mess) This series will blow your mind and confirm what you already know to be true. The Pharmacratic Inquisition Best Thread Ever ! ! !
me if you have questions about lasers Although i may advise others in a general way regarding all types of mushroom grows, and may even post question from other forums about growing "active" mushrooms, i only grow non-"active" mushrooms and edibles. FeelFamily resident tech guru
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veda_sticks
Cultivator




Registered: 07/29/07
Posts: 14,191
Loc: UK
Last seen: 4 years, 25 days
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Re: Super Sterilization (microwave) [Re: Slimz]
#7658418 - 11/20/07 10:40 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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I think you are getting alittle con fussed, if you have sqeezed all the air out of your bag, then there is no where for the steam to go, so it will just be sitting as a gass within the coir, that doesnt meen it hasnt evaporated.
By the way, steam is water as a gas.
-------------------- PF TEK - writeup by EvilMushroom666 Lets Grow Mushrooms - RogerRabbit & RoadKills website with sample videos plus the full PF TEK video series. Alot of great information - BUY THE DVD Cakes can and will pin! - So you think cakes suck for pins. Your wrong Franks Simple Coir/Verm Tek Franks Proper Pasturisation Tek Franks Spawning To Bulk - Monotub Professor Pinheads RTV Injection Port Tek Foo Mans No Soak WBS Prep Tek
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Slimz
.-~*´`*·~-experience-~*´`*·~-.




Registered: 10/03/07
Posts: 3,588
Loc: Maryland
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Re: Super Sterilization (microwave) [Re: veda_sticks]
#7658456 - 11/20/07 10:50 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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I understand physics... water is water is water.. you say its in the coir as a gas? what makes water a gas? the answer is its relative density. so if its sitting next to another water molecule which is sitting next to another etc etc. as long at they are in close enough proximity, they are water and NOT water vapor..
-------------------- Lazy Drywall Tek (no powdery mess) This series will blow your mind and confirm what you already know to be true. The Pharmacratic Inquisition Best Thread Ever ! ! !
me if you have questions about lasers Although i may advise others in a general way regarding all types of mushroom grows, and may even post question from other forums about growing "active" mushrooms, i only grow non-"active" mushrooms and edibles. FeelFamily resident tech guru
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syntroniks
Stranger Danger
Registered: 10/18/07
Posts: 76
Loc: Assen, Holland
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Re: Super Sterilization (microwave) [Re: thedefone]
#7658476 - 11/20/07 10:54 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Unless its distilled water in a perfect container, it's probably not going to get superheated.
I'm not saying other liquids can't be superheated, its just that you couldn't get coir to 1000F without boiling.
I wish I had an autoclave :'(
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thedefone
deus ex machina

Registered: 10/06/07
Posts: 1,883
Loc: Gondwana
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Re: Super Sterilization (microwave) [Re: Slimz]
#7658535 - 11/20/07 11:07 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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As long as we're quoting, let's have a little fun, shall we?
Quote:
I understand physics... water is water is water.. you say its in the coir as a gas? what makes water a gas? the answer is its relative density. so if its sitting next to another water molecule which is sitting next to another etc etc. as long at they are in close enough proximity, they are water and NOT water vapor..
Have you even bothered to read the other references in this thread? There is still air in that bag no matter how hard you try to get it out. Microscopic bubbles.
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Smooth containers do not have bubbles of air clinging to their sides. Rough walled or scratched containers may hold microscopic bubbles in their cracks. These become nucleii for boiling. Even a crack that is fully filled with water can be a boiling nucleus because it reduces the required area of the water-vapour surface.
You got all the microscopic bubbles out? All of them? Every single molecule?
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Once a bubble forms (a process called nucleation), it is easy to increase its size. So the superheated water nearby evaporates very quickly, producing a large volume of steam.
So when you expose that coir/water to air does it boil? Does it produce that large volume of steam, like these do? Hell, how about when you touch it?
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got it to 340 in 7 min
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The hot water can reach temperatures of more than 300 degrees Fahrenheit (148 degrees Celsius). This is hotter than boiling water (212 degrees F / 100 degrees C). It doesn't turn into steam because it is not in contact with the air.
Wow! Your microwave is more powerful than Earth!
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could someone who knows the boiling point of water please comment?
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i have answered my own question
Then why did you ask it in the first place? Look, if you don't want other people to weigh in on your ideas, then don't post them. And when someone does disagree with you, don't get all butt hurt and insult them, because it lowers the level of discourse in the forum.
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I am become death, the destroyer of worlds.
Edited by thedefone (11/20/07 11:10 AM)
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Uns4ne
I Fail At Life




Registered: 10/17/07
Posts: 112
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Re: Super Sterilization (microwave) [Re: syntroniks]
#7658603 - 11/20/07 11:15 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Has nothing to do with "pure water". It's the substances that dissolve in the water that allow it to stay liquid above 100 C. Antifreeze anyone or maybe you have never seen hard candy made. The hotter you make the water the more will dissolve in it and it will stay liquid. Supersaturation anyone.
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Slimz
.-~*´`*·~-experience-~*´`*·~-.




Registered: 10/03/07
Posts: 3,588
Loc: Maryland
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Re: Super Sterilization (microwave) [Re: thedefone]
#7658615 - 11/20/07 11:17 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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WOW! im done, your a moron!
Do you really believe that you can boil the entire contents the bag in to vapor and expand it in to a few microscopic air pockets.. Let me get this straight.. you want to expand all the water in to those air pockets and still maintain a low enough density as to not precipitate?
Please, anyone.. explain to this person that once you reach 100% humidity you get precipitation. and if the air is saturated then no more water can evaporate.
-------------------- Lazy Drywall Tek (no powdery mess) This series will blow your mind and confirm what you already know to be true. The Pharmacratic Inquisition Best Thread Ever ! ! !
me if you have questions about lasers Although i may advise others in a general way regarding all types of mushroom grows, and may even post question from other forums about growing "active" mushrooms, i only grow non-"active" mushrooms and edibles. FeelFamily resident tech guru
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RogerRabbit
Bans for Pleasure



Registered: 03/26/03
Posts: 42,214
Loc: Seattle
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Re: Super Sterilization (microwave) [Re: Slimz]
#7658705 - 11/20/07 11:31 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Opinions are like something else every one has, so unless somebody wishes to quote some scientific texts to back up claims, let's not be spreading flames over our opinions.
I can easily see how water 10,000 feet below the surface of the earth can heat to well over 100C without boiling. After all, think of the weight(pressure) a 10,000 feet deep well of water will exert on the water at the bottom. That's a lot more pressure then the walls of our PC's can contain.
However, I doubt seriously the walls of an oven bag can exert that much pressure. There's no way to get every molecule of air out of a bag of coir or manure, even if it soaks in water for a month. In addition, even if it did, you'd be handling a bomb when you open the microwave.
My background is engineering, not chemistry, so we should wait for one of the member chemists to chime in. The overall point is mute though, because sterilized substrates are much more likely to contaminate than pasteurized substrates. One shouldn't heat substrate or casing material above about 170F, or the chances of contamination are increased rather than decreased. RR
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Slimz
.-~*´`*·~-experience-~*´`*·~-.




Registered: 10/03/07
Posts: 3,588
Loc: Maryland
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Re: Super Sterilization (microwave) [Re: RogerRabbit]
#7658748 - 11/20/07 11:38 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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well rather than get frustrated and annoyed i will bow out of this conversation and leave you with this http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/water-thermal-properties-d_162.html
-------------------- Lazy Drywall Tek (no powdery mess) This series will blow your mind and confirm what you already know to be true. The Pharmacratic Inquisition Best Thread Ever ! ! !
me if you have questions about lasers Although i may advise others in a general way regarding all types of mushroom grows, and may even post question from other forums about growing "active" mushrooms, i only grow non-"active" mushrooms and edibles. FeelFamily resident tech guru
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Nibin
Getting there



Registered: 11/29/05
Posts: 4,480
Last seen: 10 years, 8 months
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Re: Super Sterilization (microwave) [Re: Slimz]
#7658881 - 11/20/07 12:21 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Slimz said: http://www.energyquest.ca.gov/story/chapter11.html
Deep under the surface, water sometimes makes its way close to the hot rock and turns into boiling hot water or into steam. The hot water can reach temperatures of more than 300 degrees Fahrenheit (148 degrees Celsius). This is hotter than boiling water (212 degrees F / 100 degrees C). It doesn't turn into steam because it is not in contact with the air.
The water reaches that temperature without boiling because it is many hundreds of metres below the surface and the pressure there is 10 times as big as at sea level (at 1000m below the surface pressure is 100atm or 1,469.5949 PSI) so the temperature at which water boils is much higher.
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thedefone
deus ex machina

Registered: 10/06/07
Posts: 1,883
Loc: Gondwana
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Re: Super Sterilization (microwave) [Re: Slimz]
#7658915 - 11/20/07 12:33 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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WOW! im done, your a moron!
Raising the bar again, I see.
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Do you really believe that you can boil the entire contents the bag in to vapor and expand it in to a few microscopic air pockets
No, I don't. The fine folks at the University of New South Wales do.
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Once a bubble forms (a process called nucleation), it is easy to increase its size. So the superheated water nearby evaporates very quickly, producing a large volume of steam.
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There's no way to get every molecule of air out of a bag of coir or manure, even if it soaks in water for a month. In addition, even if it did, you'd be handling a bomb when you open the microwave.
Yup. I've said that like 3 times now.
-x-x-x-
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explain to this person that once you reach 100% humidity you get precipitation. and if the air is saturated then no more water can evaporate.
We're not talking about a cup of water in the desert Thank you, Georgia State University, you've been very helpful!
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the substances that dissolve in the water that allow it to stay liquid above 100 C. Antifreeze anyone or maybe you have never seen hard candy made. The hotter you make the water the more will dissolve in it and it will stay liquid. Supersaturation anyone.
Yes, but there isn't any antifreeze in his coco coir. And furthermore, I doubt highly that coconut husks are going to raise the boiling point of water by +70%, when the boiling point of the water will begin to rise by about one half degree Celsius, for every 58 grams of salt dissolved per kilogram of water.
xoxoxoxo, thedefone
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I am become death, the destroyer of worlds.
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Slimz
.-~*´`*·~-experience-~*´`*·~-.




Registered: 10/03/07
Posts: 3,588
Loc: Maryland
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Re: Super Sterilization (microwave) [Re: thedefone]
#7658968 - 11/20/07 12:55 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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well this was mush not dissolved solids in water. All the fancy science that either of us can come up with does not change the fact that we are dealing with a mush, and that the properties of that mush allowed it to reach 350...
-------------------- Lazy Drywall Tek (no powdery mess) This series will blow your mind and confirm what you already know to be true. The Pharmacratic Inquisition Best Thread Ever ! ! !
me if you have questions about lasers Although i may advise others in a general way regarding all types of mushroom grows, and may even post question from other forums about growing "active" mushrooms, i only grow non-"active" mushrooms and edibles. FeelFamily resident tech guru
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Uns4ne
I Fail At Life




Registered: 10/17/07
Posts: 112
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Re: Super Sterilization (microwave) [Re: Slimz]
#7659138 - 11/20/07 01:47 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Slimz know this, your observations are correct. You can heat a water saturated substrate far above the boiling point of water in a microwave, without desiccating it. However as RR pionted out it is probably more appropriate to pasteurize the applicable mediums than it is to sterilize them.
You should also know that pumping enough energy into a substrate to sterilize it can cause a bad ass fire. I almost had a catastrophe using a microwave and I would suggest you use more traditional methods.
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Slimz
.-~*´`*·~-experience-~*´`*·~-.




Registered: 10/03/07
Posts: 3,588
Loc: Maryland
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Re: Super Sterilization (microwave) [Re: Uns4ne]
#7659382 - 11/20/07 03:01 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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I realize that pasteurizing it is better (now) but at least someone understands that i wasn't making this up...
PS fire probably happened at around 450f (thats the temp wood starts to burn)
-------------------- Lazy Drywall Tek (no powdery mess) This series will blow your mind and confirm what you already know to be true. The Pharmacratic Inquisition Best Thread Ever ! ! !
me if you have questions about lasers Although i may advise others in a general way regarding all types of mushroom grows, and may even post question from other forums about growing "active" mushrooms, i only grow non-"active" mushrooms and edibles. FeelFamily resident tech guru
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