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Re: Anti-gay Church Liable: $10.9 Million [Re: PsychedelicPhish]
    #7589206 -

First amendment my arse. You can say whatever you want, so long as you accept the consiquences. If you posthumously insult someone, then their greiving relatives have a right to be angry and fight back. I personally think they could have done them and the world a favour by killing them so they can meet the god they are so fanatical about, but having to pay such punitive damages sets a good example. And the jury in this case, I have nothing against them.

This is different to making a protest about drugs and freedoms. That is something that benefits everyone, that is something that only hurts those that would seek to wrest more power from the people. These people were being verbally abusive. The first amendment doesn't protect one from a face fisting if you were to say "I slept with your wife and she was rubbish".

Besides, how were their first amendment rights abridged? They had their protest, stated their hatred and intolerance, pissed of and upset already grieving people, and paid the consiquence.


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Re: Anti-gay Church Liable: $10.9 Million [Re: Visionary Tools]
    #7589213 -

I mentioned before that I'm all for street justice in this case. But legally, I don't like to fuck with the first amendment. It's one of the best things America has going for it.


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Re: Anti-gay Church Liable: $10.9 Million [Re: Silversoul]
    #7589335 -

What that church was doing not exsersizing first admendment rights! it was harassment, for a church they know better than to protest during a funeral.

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Re: Anti-gay Church Liable: $10.9 Million [Re: PsychedelicPhish]
    #7589389 -

honestly, if they pulled that sort of shit at any funerali was at, there would definatly be some sort of retaliation.

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Re: Anti-gay Church Liable: $10.9 Million [Re: PsychedelicPhish]
    #7589729 -

PsychedelicPhish said:
What that church was doing not exsersizing first admendment rights! it was harassment, for a church they know better than to protest during a funeral.


I think that might fall under "Inciting a riot". That is illegal and those evil bastards deserve everything they have coming to them both in this world and the next.

You have the right to free speech in certain pre-defined zones using a permit but you cannot drown out or interfere with someone else's right to free speech and assembly even though you are not physically present in their area using bullhorns and such.

Fred Phelps is a sick SOB.

If there is a Hell, it is reserved for people like him and his minions.


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“The crisis takes a much longer time coming than you think, and then it happens much faster than you would have thought.”  -- Rudiger Dornbusch

Edited by zorbman (11/03/07 01:54 AM)

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Re: Anti-gay Church Liable: $10.9 Million [Re: zorbman]
    #7590218 -

there's a differnece between what someone deserves and what the government should provide for them.

it is bad policy to punish speech

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Re: Anti-gay Church Liable: $10.9 Million [Re: Visionary Tools]
    #7590341 -

Quote:
First amendment my arse.


:shake:

If you are at a protest and you burn the American flag, should a Vietnam veteran be able to beat your ass because you caused him emotional distress?

People need to realize that unless speech is going to inevitably incite a riot or dangers the lives of others, it doesn't actually hurt anyone. Words are words. No matter how degrading or disgusting the speech is, the 1st amendment covers it. It's there just for that reason; to protect speech that is viewed as unpopular.

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Re: Anti-gay Church Liable: $10.9 Million [Re: Redstorm]
    #7590387 -

Redstorm said:
Quote:
First amendment my arse.


:shake:



People need to realize that unless speech is going to inevitably incite a riot or dangers the lives of others, it doesn't actually hurt anyone. Words are words. No matter how degrading or disgusting the speech is, the 1st amendment covers it. It's there just for that reason; to protect speech that is viewed as unpopular.



exactly.  And how will you feel in the future when this case is used as support for prosecuting a case you may not agree with?  What happens when you protest the police dept that beat your neighbor for smoking a bowl?  What happens when they accuse you of slander and defamation?  Will you feel the same way?

Unless we protect the most discusting speech, we can't hope to protect the most vital, because there is no bright line test to distniguish between the two, and there is therefore an opportunity for an unscrupulous judge, jury, justice to allow his personal opinion to coler the law.

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Re: Anti-gay Church Liable: $10.9 Million [Re: johnm214]
    #7590399 -

:thumbup:

But I'm wondering if free speech protects picketing a funeral service like that. :strokebeard:


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:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: Anti-gay Church Liable: $10.9 Million [Re: gluke bastid]
    #7590417 -

http://www.crooksandliars.com/Media/Download/23044/2/CNN-Fred-Phelps-Sanchez-11-01-07.mov


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Re: Anti-gay Church Liable: $10.9 Million [Re: fireworks_god]
    #7590439 -

fireworks_god said:
:thumbup:

But I'm wondering if free speech protects picketing a funeral service like that. :strokebeard:


Well I don't see any footnotes on the constitution.

But yeah, I'm not aware of any exception, so it should.  The usual "exceptions" really only target the intent of the speaker in very narrow areas, intent to induce panic, mayehm, tomfoolery et cet.

I think people belive this church feels what they are doing is right, so in my mind, they should be cool, unless their actions were unreasonably affecting (through excessive volume et cet) the private funeral

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Re: Anti-gay Church Liable: $10.9 Million [Re: Visionary Tools]
    #7590449 -

Visionary Tools said:
http://www.crooksandliars.com/Media/Download/23044/2/CNN-Fred-Phelps-Sanchez-11-01-07.mov


that link didn't work for me, but I think I found what you were refering to; the interview?

I don't really see the point though... The pastor sounds like an asshole, thats a given...
Am I missing something?

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Re: Anti-gay Church Liable: $10.9 Million [Re: Visionary Tools]
    #7590459 -

Visionary Tools said:
First amendment my arse. You can say whatever you want, so long as you accept the consiquences. If you posthumously insult someone, then their greiving relatives have a right to be angry and fight back. I personally think they could have done them and the world a favour by killing them so they can meet the god they are so fanatical about, but having to pay such punitive damages sets a good example. And the jury in this case, I have nothing against them.

This is different to making a protest about drugs and freedoms. That is something that benefits everyone, that is something that only hurts those that would seek to wrest more power from the people. These people were being verbally abusive. The first amendment doesn't protect one from a face fisting if you were to say "I slept with your wife and she was rubbish".

Besides, how were their first amendment rights abridged? They had their protest, stated their hatred and intolerance, pissed of and upset already grieving people, and paid the consiquence.


you seem to be flipping between several different rationalizations.

are you arguing that what they did was wrong morally, legally, or should be wrong legally but isn't?

You seem to be conflating morals with law as it is and/or as it should be.

I happen to think there is a vast different between what is moral and what should be law.

Are you seriously arguing that the first amendment is not violated when you are sued for your speech? If you really don't know, I'll dig up the citations, but I'm not sure what your argument is at the present.

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Re: Anti-gay Church Liable: $10.9 Million [Re: johnm214]
    #7591053 -

johnm214 said:
Visionary Tools said:
First amendment my arse. You can say whatever you want, so long as you accept the consiquences. If you posthumously insult someone, then their greiving relatives have a right to be angry and fight back. I personally think they could have done them and the world a favour by killing them so they can meet the god they are so fanatical about, but having to pay such punitive damages sets a good example. And the jury in this case, I have nothing against them.

This is different to making a protest about drugs and freedoms. That is something that benefits everyone, that is something that only hurts those that would seek to wrest more power from the people. These people were being verbally abusive. The first amendment doesn't protect one from a face fisting if you were to say "I slept with your wife and she was rubbish".

Besides, how were their first amendment rights abridged? They had their protest, stated their hatred and intolerance, pissed of and upset already grieving people, and paid the consiquence.


you seem to be flipping between several different rationalizations.

are you arguing that what they did was wrong morally, legally, or should be wrong legally but isn't?

You seem to be conflating morals with law as it is and/or as it should be.

I happen to think there is a vast different between what is moral and what should be law.

Are you seriously arguing that the first amendment is not violated when you are sued for your speech? If you really don't know, I'll dig up the citations, but I'm not sure what your argument is at the present.


Fuck the laws, they are broken, and flaunted whenever those in power don't like it. Morally, this is wrong. This is as wrong as Nazi's standing outside a Jewish funeral and holding up placards saying "god hates jews".

If they want to shout and scream about how evil whatever it is Fred Phelps doesn't like that minute (which is many things, if you download the .mov you'll see), that's fine. But when it's outside a funeral, that is the most upsetting time and will scar those gathered for life.

I don't even like the millitary. I feel if those soliders didn't want to die, they shouldn't have joined in the first place. But it doesn't matter. When someone dies, they are indefensible, and a funeral is one of the most upsetting moments in any persons life. For them to start preaching at this most inopportune time was nothing short of the most morally indefensible act I have ever had the displeasure of hearing about.

And I still feel the first amendment was not violated.

Quote:
Amendment I

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.


What they did was not peaceful. It was designed to incite anger and cause those that were grieving further pain. Either way, I am glad the jury decided he was guilty. I still think the death penalty would be more suitable for this human derelict, but if anything, such a crippling fine will ensure his church is bankrupt and he'll be poor for life.


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Re: Anti-gay Church Liable: $10.9 Million [Re: Visionary Tools]
    #7591525 -

Quote:
I still think the death penalty would be more suitable for this human derelict


That right there is much more disgusting than anything that church does.

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Re: Anti-gay Church Liable: $10.9 Million [Re: Visionary Tools]
    #7591898 -

Quote:
and a funeral is one of the most upsetting moments in any persons life.


this seems to be the main focal point of the "shit on the 1st amendment" people.
Why cant any moment, of any day, for any person, quite possibly be the most upsetting moment of their life?

you said it yourself.
Quote:
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.


by stating that a funeral is a equally sacred, and emotionally greivous place, they are favoring a western set of religious ideals.

that is what the consitution is here for. so knee jerk emotional mob reactions dont become the law of the land.

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