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Anonymous

Carving up 10 anti-war arguments
    #1441001 - 04/09/03 12:06 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

This was posted in the fall of last year.

Carving up 10 anti-war arguments at holiday gatherings

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posted: December 9, 2002
1:00 a.m. Eastern


? 2002 WorldNetDaily.com


War never solved anything.
Not true ? war has successfully solved many (if not most) of the major problems and dangers in history. What "solved" Hitler? Negotiation, compassion, psychoanalysis? No, the willingness of Churchill and Roosevelt to slaughter as many Germans as necessary before we achieved regime change in Berlin. Decisive, crushing victories (like World War II) lead to long-term solutions (like the utter transformation of Germany and Japan), while indecisive and hesitant outcomes (World War I, the Gulf War) often lead to further struggle and instability.


We have no right to attack Saddam because our aid made him powerful and he once functioned as our ally.
Not true, and not even vaguely relevant. During the Cold War, Iraq was a client state of the Soviet Union, not the United States, and Saddam has always been outspoken in his Marxist, anti-Western fulminations. It's true that the U.S. foreign-policy establishment tilted toward Iraq in its bloody war against Iran, but only because the Islamic fanaticism of the Iranians represented a more direct, immediate danger to the United States. Suggesting that fleeting cooperation some 20 years ago means that we have no right to oppose Iraq today makes no sense whatever. We provided massive military and financial support to Stalin during his desperate battle against Hitler. Does that mean that we had no moral right to oppose the aggressive designs of the Soviet Union when it turned against us within months of the conclusion of the world war?


It's all about oil.
Not really, but so what? Are we supposed to ignore the fact that our whole economy, and therefore our national security, depends upon imported oil? Why is it even theoretically inappropriate to fight in order to ensure the continued delivery of a substance so essential to our survival and independence? Meanwhile, Saddam's psychotic and despotic regime would represent a profound danger to the world even if he controlled no oil assets whatever. The United States imports almost none of its petroleum from Iraq, but our European "allies" (the French, in particular) get a great deal of their energy from that country ? and therefore ardently oppose the idea of waging war. On this issue, it's the appeasers ? not the hard-liners ? who are "all about oil."


Instead of planning war we should be developing alternate energy sources to lessen our dependence on oil from the Middle East.
Sure, it's a good idea to secure new energy supplies ? beginning with the long overdue drilling of the fertile oil fields contained in 4 percent of the Arctic National Wildlife Reserve. Meanwhile, the fond visions of windmills and solar panels solving our national addiction to that nasty black goo will do nothing to change our immediate economic or strategic situation. Even the most visionary and optimistic views of "renewable" energy development indicate that these emerging technologies can play a significant role only some 10 or 20 years in the future ? by which time regime change in Iraq will have surely occurred in any event, due to the eagerly awaited demise of the mustachioed megalomaniac.


If we make war on Iraq, it will only enrage the Arab world and provoke even more terrifying assaults by terrorists.
The logic behind this assumption is that our enemies don't really hate us yet, but that if we dare to harm Saddam, they'll just go nuts. As a matter of fact, it's hard to understand how much more hostile you can feel once you've already declared (as Osama did in 1998) that every American, civilian or military, adult or child, richly deserves to die. The truth is that our enemies don't hate us for what we do, they hate us for who we are. The "don't get the crazy Arabs mad" argument rests upon the premise that their fury arises in reaction to some action or policy of the United States, rather than as an expression of their own self-destructive insanity and suicidal evil.


The U.S. is no better than Saddam because we've murdered some 1.5 million Iraqi children with our sanctions.
At times, leftists offer this same argument using the figure of 500,000 Iraqi children, or 2 million Iraqi children, or whatever other number sounds good at the moment. It's a stupid lie ? contradicted by reports of the United Nations ? and simply shows that whoever repeats it serves as an unpaid but loyal propagandist for Saddam. The U.N. has repeatedly reported (as recently as last month) that the Iraqi standard of living and health care has been going up, not down, for the last several years ? in part because of the "Oil for Food" program administered as part of the sanctions regime.

Starvation remains a problem in that country ? not because of a lack of resources or trade, but because of the deliberate and cruel policies of an evil regime. The magical mystery tours of Saddam's palaces by the United Nations inspectors demonstrate that the problem for Iraq isn't a lack of wealth, but a misallocation of wealth by a monstrous kleptocracy. In one of the dictator's palaces, all eight walls of an entrance hall were decorated with verses of poetry in praise of Saddam, inlaid in solid gold.


There is no connection between Islamic terrorists and the Saddam Hussein regime.
This statement represents one of the few examples of anti-war activists disagreeing with the official line of the Iraqi government. That line emphasizes the proud support of the heroic and revolutionary Iraqi people for Islamic fighters everywhere, including the holy warriors of al-Qaida. Meanwhile, the al-Qaida crew similarly expresses its solidarity with Saddam ? as they did in their Internet statement (widely validated by intelligence agencies in the West) claiming credit for the recent Kenya attacks, and linking future assaults to potential war against their friends, the Iraqis. If Iraq expresses solidarity with al-Qaida, and al-Qaida expresses solidarity with Iraq, peaceniks face a difficult challenge in arguing that they represent utterly disconnected phenomena.


All the talk of war against Iraq has caused us to lose focus on the war against terrorism.
Even if the president of the United States happens to focus on Iraq in his speeches, that doesn't mean that the several hundred thousand Americans who have been dedicated since Sept. 11 to rooting out Islamic terror suddenly gave up or pulled back on their efforts. If our military and counter-terrorist capabilities don't allow us to simultaneously combat a gang of murderous thugs like al-Qaida and a fourth-rate military power like Iraq, then we have been even more tragically weakened by eight years of Clinton defense cuts than even the gloomiest conservatives assumed.


If we go ahead with war against Iraq, it will represent a betrayal of our values and mark the first time in history that we attacked another country that never attacked us first.
Only those with a truly pathetic public-school education could believe such rubbish, since we fought the War of 1812, the Mexican War, the Spanish American War, World War I, Korea, Vietnam, the Gulf War, our campaigns in Bosnia and Kosovo, and many lesser engagements ? all with no direct attack on the United States. Great powers face great threats ? and dangerous enemies. Why would a war prove easier or more appropriate after Saddam develops, or uses, nuclear weapons ? rather than before he's completed such deadly development?


Iraq is no military pushover and we will suffer appalling losses in any war we launch.
No credible military analysts agree with this assessment, and the peaceniks don't believe it either. After all, some of the same "activists" issued the same dire warnings about imminent disaster before the first Gulf War, not to mention our recent efforts in Afghanistan. According to any impartial analysis, the Iraqi military is vastly less powerful than it was at the time of the prior Gulf War, and our capabilities ? including our mission-appropriate high tech weaponry ? make us much better prepared than we were last time.

The truth is that for many of the critics of Bush administration policy, the real fear (as some of them actually admit) isn't a bloody American defeat but a swift, relatively painless U.S. victory. Their belief is that it's a bad thing for the world if America becomes even more powerful, more dominant, in the Middle East and around the globe. They're dead wrong, of course ? all humanity ? especially the 200 million Arabs who suffer under the fanatical oppression of their own regimes ? will benefit from a sweeping U.S. victory and an increase in American influence.


By:Michael Medved Source


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OfflineMurex
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Re: Carving up 10 anti-war arguments [Re: TackleBerry]
    #1441020 - 04/09/03 12:12 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Sounds your 3rd eye is squeegeed quite cleanly.

5 Shrooms to you, cuz you gots a good head on your shoulders.


--------------------
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?



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Offlineatomikfunksoldier
T'was born oftrue in the yearof the cock!

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Re: Carving up 10 anti-war arguments [Re: Murex]
    #1441028 - 04/09/03 12:14 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

war is the spore of the mushroom cloud, its loud and obnoxious producing toxic noxious chemicals, fatalities, it dispenses morality in a way that falcifies reality.


--------------------
enjoy the entertaining indentity i have constructed for you while you can.


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Anonymous

Re: Carving up 10 anti-war arguments [Re: atomikfunksoldier]
    #1441038 - 04/09/03 12:16 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

er, yes
plus, war HASNT solved anything
the world wars were pathetic shambles which ended only because of the german armies getting torn down from an advance- imagine if they had attacked and fortified those positions...
Look at the collateral damage- much of "The Wall" by pink floyd even addresses the fact


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Anonymous

Re: Carving up 10 anti-war arguments [Re: TackleBerry]
    #1441045 - 04/09/03 12:17 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

good post.


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OfflineMurex
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Re: Carving up 10 anti-war arguments [Re: ]
    #1441059 - 04/09/03 12:21 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Okay Narrowmind, er...Marrowind; Wars have solved A LOT! How would you know the world would be a better place if say, there was no WW2?

much of "The Wall" by pink floyd even addresses the fact

I think Pink Floyd was adressing wars relative to the times, like Vietnam and the Korean war.


--------------------
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?



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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Carving up 10 anti-war arguments [Re: TackleBerry]
    #1441061 - 04/09/03 12:21 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

If we make war on Iraq, it will only enrage the Arab world and provoke even more terrifying assaults by terrorists.
The logic behind this assumption is that our enemies don't really hate us yet, but that if we dare to harm Saddam, they'll just go nuts. As a matter of fact, it's hard to understand how much more hostile you can feel once you've already declared (as Osama did in 1998) that every American, civilian or military, adult or child, richly deserves to die. The truth is that our enemies don't hate us for what we do, they hate us for who we are. The "don't get the crazy Arabs mad" argument rests upon the premise that their fury arises in reaction to some action or policy of the United States, rather than as an expression of their own self-destructive insanity and suicidal evil.



That's the same kind of ignorance and arrogance that pisses these guys off in the first place. You don't get all those people blowing themselves up just because they hate America for no reason. They have plenty of reasons to hate America, and this war is just one of them. Of course there were already plenty of people who hated America prior to this war, but this will turn more and more people against America, thus allowing Al Queda to recruit more people.

Quote:

There is no connection between Islamic terrorists and the Saddam Hussein regime.
This statement represents one of the few examples of anti-war activists disagreeing with the official line of the Iraqi government. That line emphasizes the proud support of the heroic and revolutionary Iraqi people for Islamic fighters everywhere, including the holy warriors of al-Qaida. Meanwhile, the al-Qaida crew similarly expresses its solidarity with Saddam ? as they did in their Internet statement (widely validated by intelligence agencies in the West) claiming credit for the recent Kenya attacks, and linking future assaults to potential war against their friends, the Iraqis. If Iraq expresses solidarity with al-Qaida, and al-Qaida expresses solidarity with Iraq, peaceniks face a difficult challenge in arguing that they represent utterly disconnected phenomena.



They may support each other's efforts against America, but that's not exactly the same as being in bed with one another, as the Bush administration has tried to suggest.

Quote:

If we go ahead with war against Iraq, it will represent a betrayal of our values and mark the first time in history that we attacked another country that never attacked us first.
Only those with a truly pathetic public-school education could believe such rubbish, since we fought the War of 1812, the Mexican War, the Spanish American War, World War I, Korea, Vietnam, the Gulf War, our campaigns in Bosnia and Kosovo, and many lesser engagements ? all with no direct attack on the United States. Great powers face great threats ? and dangerous enemies. Why would a war prove easier or more appropriate after Saddam develops, or uses, nuclear weapons ? rather than before he's completed such deadly development?



Almost every war mentioned there is one I'd consider to be an unjust war. And don't forget that in the Spanish American War and Vietnam, there was some staged or fabricated incident to incite us into war.


Quote:

The truth is that for many of the critics of Bush administration policy, the real fear (as some of them actually admit) isn't a bloody American defeat but a swift, relatively painless U.S. victory. Their belief is that it's a bad thing for the world if America becomes even more powerful, more dominant, in the Middle East and around the globe. They're dead wrong, of course ? all humanity ? especially the 200 million Arabs who suffer under the fanatical oppression of their own regimes ? will benefit from a sweeping U.S. victory and an increase in American influence.



Considering the way the U.S. government runs our own country, I hate to think of how they'll run an empire.

Other than that, good post overall.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


Edited by silversoul7 (04/09/03 12:22 AM)


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Anonymous

Re: Carving up 10 anti-war arguments [Re: silversoul7]
    #1441078 - 04/09/03 12:27 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

yes, those were the only 3 i could find fault with.


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OfflineMurex
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Re: Carving up 10 anti-war arguments [Re: silversoul7]
    #1441079 - 04/09/03 12:27 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

. They have plenty of reasons to hate America,

They have no good reason to hate Amerika. They are brainwashed people (sadly).

Considering the way the U.S. government runs our own country, I hate to think of how they'll run an empire.

So Saddam's country was ran better?  :confused:



--------------------
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?



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Anonymous

Re: Carving up 10 anti-war arguments [Re: Murex]
    #1441086 - 04/09/03 12:28 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

wow, seems like your wordplay on my name was a freudian slip, oh well.
haha
all im saying is
give peace a chance

in the words of yet someone else,
smoke joints, not iraqis


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Carving up 10 anti-war arguments [Re: Murex]
    #1441087 - 04/09/03 12:28 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

. They have plenty of reasons to hate America,

They have no good reason to hate Amerika. They are brainwashed people (sadly).



So are you if you actually believe that.

Quote:

Considering the way the U.S. government runs our own country, I hate to think of how they'll run an empire.

So Saddam's country was ran better?  :confused:



Did I say that?  :confused:


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Invisiblez@z.com
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Re: Carving up 10 anti-war arguments [Re: Murex]
    #1441088 - 04/09/03 12:28 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

I think Pink Floyd was adressing wars relative to the times, like Vietnam and the Korean war.



I think they were mostly talking a bout WWII which took one of their fathers lives.


--------------------
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson


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InvisibleCaptain Jack
i [heart] you

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Re: Carving up 10 anti-war arguments [Re: Murex]
    #1441092 - 04/09/03 12:29 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

maybe war "solved" WW2, but it also put the world in that position because of WW1.


--------------------
-
Captain Jack has been hailed as a brilliant scholar, discredited as a brilliant fraud, and mistaken for a much taller man on several occasions.


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Anonymous

Re: Carving up 10 anti-war arguments [Re: Captain Jack]
    #1441112 - 04/09/03 12:33 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

now you're all really grabbing at straws.

if you want to make the case that "war has never solved anything" go do it in a different thread and see how well such a position holds up against logical scrutiny.


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Anonymous

Re: Carving up 10 anti-war arguments [Re: ]
    #1441118 - 04/09/03 12:35 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

oh, to actually address your question, the appeasement of Hitler was the first mistake in WW2. There were about 18 things he was allowed to do before anyone told him to at least calm down. He was only riding the wave of resentment in Germany-Austria at the time- they felt "betrayed" since WW1 because of BS propoganda type messages they spread- "BACKSTABBED BY OUR POLITICIANS!!" when the politicians surrendered- after the army was defeated, mind you.

Violence begets violence- WW2 was a continuation of WW1- and WW1 was a war of greed- the highly organized Germany/Austria/ Prussia( if im not mistaken) was the superpower of the time- but it wanted more. Now, HMMM.. can you POSSIBLY think of Any MorE supeRpowers seekIng any sort of expansion, with a pathetically-Colonial Attitude?


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Carving up 10 anti-war arguments [Re: ]
    #1441127 - 04/09/03 12:38 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Now, HMMM.. can you POSSIBLY think of Any MorE supeRpowers seekIng any sort of expansion, with a pathetically-Colonial Attitude?



/me raises hand

Ooh! Ooh! Pick me! I know this one! Is it France?


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
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Re: Carving up 10 anti-war arguments [Re: TackleBerry]
    #1441130 - 04/09/03 12:38 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

He has some good arguments but how about some objectivity?

The "don't get the crazy Arabs mad" argument rests upon the premise that their fury arises in reaction to some action or policy of the United States, rather than as an expression of their own self-destructive insanity and suicidal evil.

Oh yeah, he's unbiased.

Only those with a truly pathetic public-school education could believe...

only those with weak arguments would start off a sentence with that.

all humanity especially the 200 million Arabs who suffer under the fanatical oppression of their own regimes will benefit from a sweeping U.S. victory and an increase in American influence.

"All humanity" will benifit?!?! says who? why are so many people around the world opposed to this war? Don't those fools know what's good for them? Oh I know, we'll TELL THEM what's good for them. yeah.


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InvisibleCaptain Jack
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Re: Carving up 10 anti-war arguments [Re: ]
    #1441135 - 04/09/03 12:39 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

now you're all really grabbing at straws.

if you want to make the case that "war has never solved anything" go do it in a different thread and see how well such a position holds up against logical scrutiny.




Are you addressing my WW1 / WW2 comment?
I didn't say war hasn't solved anything.

I just think saying war "solved" Hitler is a poor argument because war created the problem in the first place.

Any history teacher will tell you that WW1 caused WW2.


--------------------
-
Captain Jack has been hailed as a brilliant scholar, discredited as a brilliant fraud, and mistaken for a much taller man on several occasions.


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OfflineMurex
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Re: Carving up 10 anti-war arguments [Re: silversoul7]
    #1441150 - 04/09/03 12:43 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

So are you if you actually believe that.

So what justafies them to hate Amerika? Give some examples.

Did I say that?

No, but you failed to see my point. How is Amerika ran so badly? I mean come on man, we aren't that bad at all! The only thing I hate about Amerika is the materalistic yuppies, McDonalds, advertising, and pop music.



--------------------
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?



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Anonymous

Re: Carving up 10 anti-war arguments [Re: silversoul7]
    #1441153 - 04/09/03 12:44 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

no, theyre just selling weapons to whoever. and the russians too.. hm.. but not quite as much as america used to


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