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InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban


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Anti-gay Church Liable: $10.9 Million
    #7581770 - 10/31/07 05:56 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)



By Jon Hurdle

BALTIMORE (Reuters) - A jury on Wednesday ordered an anti-gay Kansas church to pay $10.9 million in damages to relatives of a U.S. Marine who died in Iraq after church members cheered his death at his funeral.

Church members said Marine Lance Cpl. Matthew Snyder's death was God's punishment of America for tolerating homosexuality, and they attended his 2006 funeral in Maryland with signs saying "You're going to hell" and "God hates you."

The federal jury determined the Westboro Baptist Church, based in Topeka, and three of its principals invaded the privacy of the dead man's family and inflicted emotional distress.

Albert Snyder, the Marine's father, testified that his son was not gay, but the church targeted the military as a symbol of America's tolerance of gays. Matthew Snyder died in combat in Iraq in March 2006.

The jury awarded Snyder's family $2.9 million in compensatory damages plus $8 million in punitive damages in the first civil suit against the church, which has demonstrated at some 300 military funerals the past two years.

The lawsuit said church Web sites vilified U.S. soldiers, accusing them of being indoctrinated by "fag propaganda."

"I hope it's enough to deter them from doing this to other families. It was not about the money. It was about getting them to stop," said Snyder, of York, Pennsylvania.

The church, which is unaffiliated with any major denomination, is headed by Rev. Fred Phelps, who has led a campaign against homosexuality for years. Most of the estimated 70 members of the church belong to his extended family.

"It will take the 4th Circuit Court of Appeals a few minutes to reverse this silly thing," Phelps said.

His daughter and co-defendant, Shirley Phelps-Roper, vowed to continue protesting military funerals and called the court's decision a blow against free speech.

Outside court on Wednesday, Phelps and his children waved placards with slogans such as "Pray for more dead kids" and "God hates fag enablers," while passing drivers and pedestrians shouted abuse at them.

Defense attorney Jonathan Katz urged jurors not to award punitive damages because the $2.9 million in compensatory damages was already three times the defendants' net worth.

"It's enough already to bankrupt them and financially destroy them," Katz said.

Craig Trebilcock, an attorney for Snyder, said jurors should award sufficient punitive damages to deter Westboro from repeating its actions.

reuters.com


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Anti-gay Church Liable: $10.9 Million [Re: Diploid]
    #7581808 - 10/31/07 06:04 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

I would like to say I like this, but I don't. I would, however, not weep if some disaffected youth were to blow all of those assholes to smithereens instead of shooting up the football team.


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InvisibleLe_Canard
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Re: Anti-gay Church Liable: $10.9 Million [Re: zappaisgod]
    #7581946 - 10/31/07 06:41 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

I wouldn't shed any tears about anything bad happening to those loons, either. :evil:


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Offlinevaportrail
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Re: Anti-gay Church Liable: $10.9 Million [Re: Le_Canard]
    #7582072 - 10/31/07 07:19 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

I don't want to believe a word of that :sad:


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and the hippos were boiled in their tanks


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Anti-gay Church Liable: $10.9 Million [Re: zappaisgod]
    #7582226 - 10/31/07 08:05 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
I would like to say I like this, but I don't.  I would, however, not weep if some disaffected youth were to blow all of those assholes to smithereens instead of shooting up the football team.



Seriously.  What happened to the Hell's Angels who were keeping this stuff under wraps?

Edit:  Damn, did I just agree with zappa?  :what:


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Edited by Silversoul (10/31/07 08:36 PM)


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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Anti-gay Church Liable: $10.9 Million [Re: Silversoul]
    #7582262 - 10/31/07 08:18 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

That's a ridiculous award. In general, I think they should be allowed to protest on public property, but since this article doesn't say shit about what they actually did, I'll assume the wost (screaming, trespassing, et cet)

But that amount of money is insane- totally nuts.


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Anti-gay Church Liable: $10.9 Million [Re: johnm214]
    #7582315 - 10/31/07 08:37 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Here's more detail:

--

BALTIMORE (Map, News) - Ordered to pay nearly $11 million in damages, members of the Westboro Baptist Church smiled and calmly walked out of the courtroom.

Outside, they sang "Happy Birthday," to defendant Shirley Phelps-Roper, who turned 50 on Wednesday, and promised to continue carrying signs that read "Thank God for dead soldiers" and "God hates fags" at military funerals.

"Absolutely, don't you understand this was an act in futility," Phelps-Roper said when asked if the church planned to continue picketing.

Phelps-Roper said church members were creating a new sign following the award that reads "Thank God for $10.9 million," adding "America is doomed, stay tuned."

The group may also be spending more time in court.

Albert Snyder, who sued the Topeka, Kan., church following a protest at the funeral of his son, Lance Cpl. Matthew Snyder, said he would "follow them until the day I die," to stop the group from protesting at other funerals.

Snyder said he hoped other families would consider suing following the verdict.

"The goal wasn't about the money, it was to set a precedent so other people could do the same thing," Snyder said.

Church members believe that U.S. deaths in the war in Iraq are punishment for the nation's tolerance of homosexuality and they are entitled to protest at funerals under the First Amendment, which guarantees freedom of speech and religion.

A number of states have passed laws regarding funeral protests, and Congress has passed a law prohibiting such protests at federal cemeteries, but the Maryland lawsuit is believed to be the first filed by the family of a fallen serviceman.

Snyder's suit named the church, Phelps-Roper, her sister Rebekah Phelps-Davis and father Fred Phelps, the church's founder. Snyder claimed the protests intruded upon what should have been a private ceremony and sullied his memory of the event.

Plaintiffs attorney Craig Trebilcock said afterward that "this is Judgment Day for the Westboro Baptist Church."

"They're always talking about other people's Judgment Day. Well, this is theirs," the attorney said.

The jury awarded $2.9 million in compensatory damages and $8 million in punitive damages, $6 million for invasion of privacy and $2 million for causing emotional distress.

Plaintiff's attorney Sean Summers said he will tirelessly seek payment of the award.

"We will chase them forever if it takes that long," Summers said.

Before the jury began deliberating the size of punitive damages, U.S. District Judge Richard Bennett noted the size of the compensatory award "far exceeds the net worth of the defendants," according to financial statements filed with the court.

Snyder sobbed when he heard the first verdict, while members of the church greeted the news with tightlipped smiles.

Attorneys for the church said in closing arguments Tuesday that the burial was a public event and that even abhorrent points of view are protected by the First Amendment.

In his closing arguments during the punitive damages phase, Trebilcock described church members as bullies who "seek out those among us who are at the weakest point in our lives."

"That's why they've gotten away with it until this point," the attorney said, adding that grieving families were too weak to fight back "until this man."

Defense lawyer Jonathan Katz reminded jurors that punitive damages are designed to deter future conduct, but not bankrupt or financially destroy.

It was unclear if the plaintiffs will be able to collect the damages awarded.

Katz said the church has about 75 members and is funded by tithing. The defense attorney said the assets of the church and the three defendants are less than a million dollars and the compensatory award is about three times the defendants' net worth, mainly in homes, cars and retirement accounts.

In his rebuttal, Trebilcock said it was up to jurors to decide the truthfulness of the financial documents, noting the documents show Phelps-Davis has $306 in the bank.

Trebilcock noted Phelps-Davis is a practicing attorney and pointed to testimony by the defendants showing how much they traveled to spread their message.

"Rebekah Phelps-Davis has $306? She must be using Priceline.com. It doesn't make any sense."

The attorney urged jurors to determine an amount "that says don't do this in Maryland again. Do not bring your circus of hate to Maryland again."

Earlier, church members staged a demonstration outside the federal courthouse, which is located on a busy thoroughfare a few blocks west of Baltimore's Inner Harbor, while passing motorists honked and shouted insults.

Phelps held a sign reading "God is your enemy," while Phelps-Roper stood on an American flag while carrying a sign that read "God hates fag enablers." Members of the group also sang "God Hates America,"' to the tune of "God Bless America."

Ed Mueller, who on Thursday will become executive director of Patriot Guard Riders, a group of motorcyclists that attends military funerals and blocks from view any protesters, said the verdict was "outstanding."

"I would hope that every other Gold Star family that has to suffer through Westboro Baptist Church protests takes advantage of this ruling," Mueller said.

Craig Smith, director of Center for First Amendment Studies at California State University, Long Beach, said the church members had a legitimate permit to demonstrate on a public street and therefore engaged in protected speech.

The appeal will be drawn out because of the emotional issues involved, Smith said.

"The judgment is apparently based on infliction of emotional damage as opposed to not having the right to protest," he said.

examiner.com


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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OfflineDimensionX
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Re: Anti-gay Church Liable: $10.9 Million [Re: Diploid]
    #7582482 - 10/31/07 09:36 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

I think thats good. That kind of stuff cant be tolerated. If someone disrespected someone in my familys funeral like that, i would want them destroyed in any way possible. That was a sacred moment, that those people tried to ruin, you cant put a price on that.


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InvisibleAsante
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Re: Anti-gay Church Liable: $10.9 Million [Re: Diploid]
    #7582525 - 10/31/07 09:55 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

The federal jury determined the Westboro Baptist Church, based in Topeka, and three of its principals invaded the privacy of the dead man's family and inflicted emotional distress.





Thank God that there now finally is precedent that you can't picket funerals like that.


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Omnicyclion.org
higher knowledge starts here


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Anti-gay Church Liable: $10.9 Million [Re: Asante]
    #7582542 - 10/31/07 10:02 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

I have mixed feelings about this.

On the one hand, it doesn't bug me one bit that this bunch of bigots lost the legal case, but on the other hand, the First Amendment protects all speech, including ugly speech.

That's the whole point of the First Amendment.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Anti-gay Church Liable: $10.9 Million [Re: Diploid]
    #7582551 - 10/31/07 10:09 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
I have mixed feelings about this.

On the one hand, it doesn't bug me one bit that this bunch of bigots lost the legal case, but on the other hand, the First Amendment covers all speech, including ugly speech.

That's the whole point of the First Amendment.



Ya, I'm generally a big first amendment proponent, but I wonder to what extent this is like yelling fire in a crowded theater. It might qualify as harassment, considering these protests are directed at private individuals, not public figures.


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InvisibleAsante
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Re: Anti-gay Church Liable: $10.9 Million [Re: Silversoul]
    #7582564 - 10/31/07 10:18 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Exactly. A funeral is not the time and place to promote your agenda by slandering the deceased. They can (ab)use the media all they want, but a funeral isn't the time or place.


--------------------
Omnicyclion.org
higher knowledge starts here


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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Anti-gay Church Liable: $10.9 Million [Re: Asante]
    #7582726 - 11/01/07 12:24 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Wiccan_Seeker said:
Exactly. A funeral is not the time and place to promote your agenda by slandering the deceased. They can (ab)use the media all they want, but a funeral isn't the time or place.




well forget about time and place... I think it just matters whether they interfered with the funeral while it was going on, and/or on land they didn't have proper access to. I have no problem with these people standing on the sidewalk talking at normal levels, and having their signs.

I do have a problem with them yelling over the speakers at the funeral.


Either way (and I don't know what they did due to bad reporting) the issue is this is an insane amount of money. The fact that you can be maime someone as a drunk doctor and they can get economic damages plus a few hundred k in some states, yet you can get this amount for messing up a funeral is dumb.

I don't believe their needs to be equality between all jury awards, cuz thats imposible, but this is too much money by any rational measure


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Anti-gay Church Liable: $10.9 Million [Re: johnm214]
    #7582732 - 11/01/07 12:30 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Craig Smith, director of Center for First Amendment Studies at California State University, Long Beach, said the church members had a legitimate permit to demonstrate on a public street and therefore engaged in protected speech.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Anti-gay Church Liable: $10.9 Million [Re: Diploid]
    #7582735 - 11/01/07 12:33 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

yeah, but you can still invade someone's privacy despite having a permit. They were allowed their speech, and the funeral was allowed to proceed. As long as they didn't substantially interfere w/ the funeral, I think this is wrong.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Anti-gay Church Liable: $10.9 Million [Re: Diploid]
    #7582736 - 11/01/07 12:33 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Well fuck me. That sucks. Where the fuck were the Hell's Angels when you needed them?


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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Anti-gay Church Liable: $10.9 Million [Re: Silversoul]
    #7582741 - 11/01/07 12:40 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

This is supposed to be the Westboro Baptist Church Choir... Found on youtube while searching for information about this case. Weird...
Seems really unchristian "god hate's the world" and "its too late to change his (god) mind" wtf? I hope this is a joke.



Edited by johnm214 (11/01/07 12:50 AM)


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Anti-gay Church Liable: $10.9 Million [Re: johnm214]
    #7582792 - 11/01/07 01:15 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

johnm214 said:
I hope this is a joke.



It's not, but they are.


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Anti-gay Church Liable: $10.9 Million [Re: Diploid]
    #7582987 - 11/01/07 05:13 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

They deserve to lose some money, but not that much.


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Offlinegluke bastid
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Re: Anti-gay Church Liable: $10.9 Million [Re: Silversoul]
    #7583344 - 11/01/07 09:39 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
Well fuck me. That sucks. Where the fuck were the Hell's Angels when you needed them?




You are confusing the hell's angels with the patriot guard.http://www.patriotguard.org/

No one needs the hells angels, unless you are looking to get chain whipped and gang raped.


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:hst:
Society in every form is a blessing,
but government at its best is but a necessary evil
 
- Thomas Paine


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Anti-gay Church Liable: $10.9 Million [Re: gluke bastid]
    #7584085 - 11/01/07 01:32 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

> They deserve to lose some money, but not that much.

I think the jury was making a point; we the people do not accept this type of behavior. I have no problem with the size of the award assuming that whatever the defendants did was not protected by freedom of speech. I honestly haven't looked in to the case to know.


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Just another spore in the wind.


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Offlineandrewss
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Re: Anti-gay Church Liable: $10.9 Million [Re: gluke bastid]
    #7584416 - 11/01/07 03:15 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

gluke bastid said:
Quote:

Silversoul said:
Well fuck me. That sucks. Where the fuck were the Hell's Angels when you needed them?




You are confusing the hell's angels with the patriot guard.http://www.patriotguard.org/

No one needs the hells angels, unless you are looking to get chain whipped and gang raped.




Hehe... Fred Phelps deserves to get chain whipped and gang raped tho... but really I have family in Topeka where that church is based and I have seen some of their stupid signs. Those people are total assholes.


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Jesus loves you.


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Invisibletak
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Re: Anti-gay Church Liable: $10.9 Million [Re: andrewss]
    #7584635 - 11/01/07 04:25 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

That amount of money is stupid. Legal system is fucked. This is not justice.

People are allowed to say WHATEVER they want without govt interference IMO. If they catch a stray bullet afterwards, that is their problem. Stop wasting our tax money though.


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The DJ's took pills to stay awake and play for seven days.


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Invisibleusg543
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Re: Anti-gay Church Liable: $10.9 Million [Re: tak]
    #7584685 - 11/01/07 04:37 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

real life trolls.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Anti-gay Church Liable: $10.9 Million [Re: Silversoul]
    #7584807 - 11/01/07 05:12 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
I would like to say I like this, but I don't.  I would, however, not weep if some disaffected youth were to blow all of those assholes to smithereens instead of shooting up the football team.



Seriously.  What happened to the Hell's Angels who were keeping this stuff under wraps?

Edit:  Damn, did I just agree with zappa?  :what:




Ahhhhhhhh Grasshopper, when you can snatch the pebble from my hand.....


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InvisibleBrainiac
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Re: Anti-gay Church Liable: $10.9 Million [Re: zappaisgod]
    #7585480 - 11/01/07 08:25 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

To bad someone doesn't hunt them down one by one.

:sniper:


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:Awesketch:

:cool: Fair is Fair :devil:


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OfflineMrBump
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Re: Anti-gay Church Liable: $10.9 Million [Re: Diploid]
    #7585742 - 11/01/07 09:39 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

what kind of jack-ass defense counsel actually wanted to go ahead and try this case instead of settling? a big city, east coast liberal jury is not going to side with this church. its not like this case was tried in the bible belt, or alabama.


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If it weren't for the bloody corpses, I wouldn't have any corpses at all.

There are two ways to get to the top of an oak tree: start climbing or sit on an acorn.

Are you a carrot, an egg, or a coffee bean?


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InvisibleThorA
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Re: Anti-gay Church Liable: $10.9 Million [Re: johnm214]
    #7586222 - 11/02/07 12:16 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

johnm214 said:
This is supposed to be the Westboro Baptist Church Choir... Found on youtube while searching for information about this case. Weird...
Seems really unchristian "god hate's the world" and "its too late to change his (god) mind" wtf? I hope this is a joke.






lol God help religion with people like this in the media.

Makes Atheism just that much more attractive.


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InvisibleBrainiac
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Re: Anti-gay Church Liable: $10.9 Million [Re: Thor]
    #7586474 - 11/02/07 02:43 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

[url=
&q=Westboro+Baptist+Church&total=512&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=1]http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2404951615658025467&q=Westboro+Baptist+Church&total=512&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=1[/url]
[url=
&q=Westboro+Patriot+Guard&total=7&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=1]http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-249352731048492593&q=Westboro+Patriot+Guard&total=7&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=1[/url]
:rofl2:

[url=
youtube.com/watch?v=Wzbo1eE8pF0&mode=related&search[/url]
Cops can do some good..


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:Awesketch:

:cool: Fair is Fair :devil:


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InvisibleSoY
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Re: Anti-gay Church Liable: $10.9 Million [Re: Brainiac]
    #7587234 - 11/02/07 10:38 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Here you go.  Someone really needs to firebomb that church....

:jesus:    :onfire:    :jesus:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O228AQRvcqQ


--------------------

"The choiceless truth of who you are is revealed to be permanently here permeating everything. Not a thing and not separate from anything."--Gaganji
"Yesterday is but today's memory and tomorrow is today's dream."
"My karma ran over my dogma!"


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OfflineVisionary Tools
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Re: Anti-gay Church Liable: $10.9 Million [Re: Silversoul]
    #7587914 - 11/02/07 01:35 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
Quote:

Diploid said:
I have mixed feelings about this.

On the one hand, it doesn't bug me one bit that this bunch of bigots lost the legal case, but on the other hand, the First Amendment covers all speech, including ugly speech.

That's the whole point of the First Amendment.



Ya, I'm generally a big first amendment proponent, but I wonder to what extent this is like yelling fire in a crowded theater. It might qualify as harassment, considering these protests are directed at private individuals, not public figures.




That's all well and good, except the dead marines can't fight back, and the greiving relatives are not in an emotionally sound state of mind.

Castrate these fuckers and remove their vocal chords. Where will they find $10.9 million dollars?


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Anti-gay Church Liable: $10.9 Million [Re: Visionary Tools]
    #7588178 - 11/02/07 02:54 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

I can't believe the clear-cut opinions against the church in this thread. The First Amendment is not a trivial thing to just toss out the window because a group said something you consider nasty.

The court may well be right in going against the church in this particular case, but I think that's FAR from clear.

The church was protesting on a PUBLIC sidewalk, across the street from the funeral, and with a legal permit.

I don't like what they did, but if they can be held liable for doing what their permit says they can do, then who will be the next target of the court? You and me when we demonstrate in favor of abolishing drug prohibition laws because that speech also happens to be unpopular?

It's a slippery slope that can ensnare us all when someone starts deciding what speech is permitted and what speech is not.

Let's keep things in perspective.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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Re: Anti-gay Church Liable: $10.9 Million [Re: Diploid]
    #7588332 - 11/02/07 03:41 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

I agree w/ diploid.

I would only think they could be rightfully found liable if they were shouting; were they? I don't know.

No matter what, this award is ridiculously excessive. While you have a right to be left alone, and this can be remedied through an invasion of privacy suit in many states, I feel the magnitude of this award is clearly the result of the type of speech, not the actions.

I would really like to see what they did that rendered them liable... or did they just hold signs and vocalize while others were near?


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Re: Anti-gay Church Liable: $10.9 Million [Re: Diploid]
    #7588345 - 11/02/07 03:43 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

&NR=1

i agree with diploid, somewhat. funerals are a different story.

but i also think if they were protesting at a loved one's funeral of mine, i'd have to mow them all down with an ak47. honestly i dont see how they've remained alive this far.


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Re: Anti-gay Church Liable: $10.9 Million [Re: usg543]
    #7588705 - 11/02/07 05:24 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

I am a strong believer in the First Amendment. It is everyones right to use there voice for the causes they beleve in.

But these trolls were attacking a funneral. Maybe not with fists and guns, but by deliberatly assulting the emotional well being of of an entire group of people. By attempting to destroy the last memory of a dead loved one.
There is reason for concern, surely, that just any old negitive speach could be lumped in and sued over, which is why the civil tort "emotional destress" has a high burden of proof. Infact this is only the second case I have ever seen it used and it won.

IMO the court was right in its verdict.


--------------------
The trouble with fighting for human freedom is that one spends most of one's time defending scoundrels. For it is against scoundrels that oppressive laws are first aimed, and oppression must be stopped at the beginning if it is to be stopped at all.
     
~H. L. Mencken~


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OfflineSneezingPenis
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Re: Anti-gay Church Liable: $10.9 Million [Re: Smackshadow]
    #7588997 - 11/02/07 06:45 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

you dont have the right to not be offended.

they didnt do anything wrong. it is a bullshit case that will be thrown out.
They feel they are doing a righteous thing, just like some of you would be as you stood on a sidewalk outside the RNC shouting equally profane things at republicans.


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Re: Anti-gay Church Liable: $10.9 Million [Re: gluke bastid]
    #7589118 - 11/02/07 07:16 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

sorry but u cant sue someone for speech in this country...its sets a bad precedent.. i hope this ruling is overturned by smarter judges


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Re: Anti-gay Church Liable: $10.9 Million [Re: KingOftheThing]
    #7589133 - 11/02/07 07:19 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Well, that's not strictly true. The classic example is: if you yell "fire!" in a crowded theater and someone gets hurt in the stampede, you sure as hell can be sued and will probably lose.

This thing with the church seems more like protected religious speech to me than the fire-in-a-theater example.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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Re: Anti-gay Church Liable: $10.9 Million [Re: Diploid]
    #7589159 - 11/02/07 07:25 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

i think god is trying to say something here


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Anti-gay Church Liable: $10.9 Million [Re: Diploid]
    #7589196 - 11/02/07 07:37 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
Well, that's not strictly true. The classic example is: if you yell "fire!" in a crowded theater and someone gets hurt in the stampede, you sure as hell can be sued and will probably lose.

This thing with the church seems more like protected religious speech to me than the fire-in-a-theater example.



Ya, at first I thought it was a case of them shouting down the people at the funeral(I didn't really bother to read the article). If they were on a public sidewalk with a permit, then they are within their rights.


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Re: Anti-gay Church Liable: $10.9 Million [Re: PsychedelicPhish]
    #7589206 - 11/02/07 07:40 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

First amendment my arse. You can say whatever you want, so long as you accept the consiquences. If you posthumously insult someone, then their greiving relatives have a right to be angry and fight back. I personally think they could have done them and the world a favour by killing them so they can meet the god they are so fanatical about, but having to pay such punitive damages sets a good example. And the jury in this case, I have nothing against them.

This is different to making a protest about drugs and freedoms. That is something that benefits everyone, that is something that only hurts those that would seek to wrest more power from the people. These people were being verbally abusive. The first amendment doesn't protect one from a face fisting if you were to say "I slept with your wife and she was rubbish".

Besides, how were their first amendment rights abridged? They had their protest, stated their hatred and intolerance, pissed of and upset already grieving people, and paid the consiquence.


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Re: Anti-gay Church Liable: $10.9 Million [Re: Visionary Tools]
    #7589213 - 11/02/07 07:41 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

I mentioned before that I'm all for street justice in this case. But legally, I don't like to fuck with the first amendment. It's one of the best things America has going for it.


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Re: Anti-gay Church Liable: $10.9 Million [Re: Silversoul]
    #7589335 - 11/02/07 08:12 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

What that church was doing not exsersizing first admendment rights! it was harassment, for a church they know better than to protest during a funeral.


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Offlinebeneath
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Re: Anti-gay Church Liable: $10.9 Million [Re: PsychedelicPhish]
    #7589389 - 11/02/07 08:33 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

honestly, if they pulled that sort of shit at any funerali was at, there would definatly be some sort of retaliation.


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Re: Anti-gay Church Liable: $10.9 Million [Re: PsychedelicPhish]
    #7589729 - 11/02/07 10:41 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

PsychedelicPhish said:
What that church was doing not exsersizing first admendment rights! it was harassment, for a church they know better than to protest during a funeral.




I think that might fall under "Inciting a riot". That is illegal and those evil bastards deserve everything they have coming to them both in this world and the next.

You have the right to free speech in certain pre-defined zones using a permit but you cannot drown out or interfere with someone else's right to free speech and assembly even though you are not physically present in their area using bullhorns and such.

Fred Phelps is a sick SOB.

If there is a Hell, it is reserved for people like him and his minions.


--------------------
“The crisis takes a much longer time coming than you think, and then it happens much faster than you would have thought.”  -- Rudiger Dornbusch


Edited by zorbman (11/03/07 01:54 AM)


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Re: Anti-gay Church Liable: $10.9 Million [Re: zorbman]
    #7590218 - 11/03/07 05:29 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

there's a differnece between what someone deserves and what the government should provide for them.

it is bad policy to punish speech


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Re: Anti-gay Church Liable: $10.9 Million [Re: Visionary Tools]
    #7590341 - 11/03/07 07:41 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

First amendment my arse.




:shake:

If you are at a protest and you burn the American flag, should a Vietnam veteran be able to beat your ass because you caused him emotional distress?

People need to realize that unless speech is going to inevitably incite a riot or dangers the lives of others, it doesn't actually hurt anyone. Words are words. No matter how degrading or disgusting the speech is, the 1st amendment covers it. It's there just for that reason; to protect speech that is viewed as unpopular.


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Re: Anti-gay Church Liable: $10.9 Million [Re: Redstorm]
    #7590387 - 11/03/07 08:14 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Redstorm said:
Quote:

First amendment my arse.




:shake:



People need to realize that unless speech is going to inevitably incite a riot or dangers the lives of others, it doesn't actually hurt anyone. Words are words. No matter how degrading or disgusting the speech is, the 1st amendment covers it. It's there just for that reason; to protect speech that is viewed as unpopular.





exactly.  And how will you feel in the future when this case is used as support for prosecuting a case you may not agree with?  What happens when you protest the police dept that beat your neighbor for smoking a bowl?  What happens when they accuse you of slander and defamation?  Will you feel the same way?

Unless we protect the most discusting speech, we can't hope to protect the most vital, because there is no bright line test to distniguish between the two, and there is therefore an opportunity for an unscrupulous judge, jury, justice to allow his personal opinion to coler the law.


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Anti-gay Church Liable: $10.9 Million [Re: johnm214]
    #7590399 - 11/03/07 08:24 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

:thumbup:

But I'm wondering if free speech protects picketing a funeral service like that. :strokebeard:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

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:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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Re: Anti-gay Church Liable: $10.9 Million [Re: gluke bastid]
    #7590417 - 11/03/07 08:43 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)



--------------------


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Re: Anti-gay Church Liable: $10.9 Million [Re: fireworks_god]
    #7590439 - 11/03/07 08:58 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

fireworks_god said:
:thumbup:

But I'm wondering if free speech protects picketing a funeral service like that. :strokebeard:




Well I don't see any footnotes on the constitution.

But yeah, I'm not aware of any exception, so it should.  The usual "exceptions" really only target the intent of the speaker in very narrow areas, intent to induce panic, mayehm, tomfoolery et cet.

I think people belive this church feels what they are doing is right, so in my mind, they should be cool, unless their actions were unreasonably affecting (through excessive volume et cet) the private funeral


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Re: Anti-gay Church Liable: $10.9 Million [Re: Visionary Tools]
    #7590449 - 11/03/07 09:04 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Visionary Tools said:
http://www.crooksandliars.com/Media/Download/23044/2/CNN-Fred-Phelps-Sanchez-11-01-07.mov




that link didn't work for me, but I think I found what you were refering to; the interview?

I don't really see the point though... The pastor sounds like an asshole, thats a given...
Am I missing something?


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Re: Anti-gay Church Liable: $10.9 Million [Re: Visionary Tools]
    #7590459 - 11/03/07 09:08 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Visionary Tools said:
First amendment my arse. You can say whatever you want, so long as you accept the consiquences. If you posthumously insult someone, then their greiving relatives have a right to be angry and fight back. I personally think they could have done them and the world a favour by killing them so they can meet the god they are so fanatical about, but having to pay such punitive damages sets a good example. And the jury in this case, I have nothing against them.

This is different to making a protest about drugs and freedoms. That is something that benefits everyone, that is something that only hurts those that would seek to wrest more power from the people. These people were being verbally abusive. The first amendment doesn't protect one from a face fisting if you were to say "I slept with your wife and she was rubbish".

Besides, how were their first amendment rights abridged? They had their protest, stated their hatred and intolerance, pissed of and upset already grieving people, and paid the consiquence.




you seem to be flipping between several different rationalizations.

are you arguing that what they did was wrong morally, legally, or should be wrong legally but isn't?

You seem to be conflating morals with law as it is and/or as it should be.

I happen to think there is a vast different between what is moral and what should be law.

Are you seriously arguing that the first amendment is not violated when you are sued for your speech? If you really don't know, I'll dig up the citations, but I'm not sure what your argument is at the present.


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Re: Anti-gay Church Liable: $10.9 Million [Re: johnm214]
    #7591053 - 11/03/07 01:13 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

johnm214 said:
Quote:

Visionary Tools said:
First amendment my arse. You can say whatever you want, so long as you accept the consiquences. If you posthumously insult someone, then their greiving relatives have a right to be angry and fight back. I personally think they could have done them and the world a favour by killing them so they can meet the god they are so fanatical about, but having to pay such punitive damages sets a good example. And the jury in this case, I have nothing against them.

This is different to making a protest about drugs and freedoms. That is something that benefits everyone, that is something that only hurts those that would seek to wrest more power from the people. These people were being verbally abusive. The first amendment doesn't protect one from a face fisting if you were to say "I slept with your wife and she was rubbish".

Besides, how were their first amendment rights abridged? They had their protest, stated their hatred and intolerance, pissed of and upset already grieving people, and paid the consiquence.




you seem to be flipping between several different rationalizations.

are you arguing that what they did was wrong morally, legally, or should be wrong legally but isn't?

You seem to be conflating morals with law as it is and/or as it should be.

I happen to think there is a vast different between what is moral and what should be law.

Are you seriously arguing that the first amendment is not violated when you are sued for your speech? If you really don't know, I'll dig up the citations, but I'm not sure what your argument is at the present.




Fuck the laws, they are broken, and flaunted whenever those in power don't like it. Morally, this is wrong. This is as wrong as Nazi's standing outside a Jewish funeral and holding up placards saying "god hates jews".

If they want to shout and scream about how evil whatever it is Fred Phelps doesn't like that minute (which is many things, if you download the .mov you'll see), that's fine. But when it's outside a funeral, that is the most upsetting time and will scar those gathered for life.

I don't even like the millitary. I feel if those soliders didn't want to die, they shouldn't have joined in the first place. But it doesn't matter. When someone dies, they are indefensible, and a funeral is one of the most upsetting moments in any persons life. For them to start preaching at this most inopportune time was nothing short of the most morally indefensible act I have ever had the displeasure of hearing about.

And I still feel the first amendment was not violated.

Quote:

Amendment I

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.




What they did was not peaceful. It was designed to incite anger and cause those that were grieving further pain. Either way, I am glad the jury decided he was guilty. I still think the death penalty would be more suitable for this human derelict, but if anything, such a crippling fine will ensure his church is bankrupt and he'll be poor for life.


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Anti-gay Church Liable: $10.9 Million [Re: Visionary Tools]
    #7591525 - 11/03/07 03:37 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

I still think the death penalty would be more suitable for this human derelict




That right there is much more disgusting than anything that church does.


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OfflineSneezingPenis
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Re: Anti-gay Church Liable: $10.9 Million [Re: Visionary Tools]
    #7591898 - 11/03/07 05:40 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

and a funeral is one of the most upsetting moments in any persons life.




this seems to be the main focal point of the "shit on the 1st amendment" people.
Why cant any moment, of any day, for any person, quite possibly be the most upsetting moment of their life?

you said it yourself.
Quote:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.




by stating that a funeral is a equally sacred, and emotionally greivous place, they are favoring a western set of religious ideals.

that is what the consitution is here for. so knee jerk emotional mob reactions dont become the law of the land.


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