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Is companionship selfish?
    #7215132 -

So let's say that you know, first noble truth, the cause of all suffering is desire.

Let's say you are sitting on your own, and you think you'd be happier if you had a companion. The right kind of companion, to sit around on your own with.

Now, wanting this, will make you suffer.
Is this simply because we should not want it at all, and not care? Be bold and without attachment, or any such thing?

Or is this because we are normal social creatures and should listen to these impulses.

Is it selfish to want human relationships? What if you want to give selflessly?


--------------------
I am the MacDaddy of Heimlich County, I play it Straight Up Yo!

....I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm, to feel connected enough to step aside and weep like a widow, to feel inspired, to fathom the power, to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain, to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human......
Om Namah Shivaya, I tell you What!

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Re: Is companionship selfish? [Re: leery11]
    #7215142 -

Every action is purely selfish...and that is just fine.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: Is companionship selfish? [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #7215260 -

I see what you are saying. I think the interesting thing here is how you put it. In response to this..."Is it selfish to want it"
I would say be careful that you do not think you can actually own this relationship, once this is so, attachment is there. If you want to experience being within someone else, it is a fair desire, as are all desires. Something just came to mind...yes sure desire is the root of suffering, but also pleasure. There is a balance there and it exists in everything. Food is desired even is water. Utimatly we do not need anything, if you hold that we are infinite creatures.

The interesting thing about all of this desire talk is that desire is discovered and so to is the feeling that is accompanied for it. If this stands, so does the idea that we cannot be held responsible for what we do. Yet, there is a distinction that ought to be made, yes we are not responsible for what we do, but we do have the ability to cause it. Responsibility here points to having responsibility for what you desire, yet this is not so. So no your desire to want to experience a companionship of some sort is not self-ish. Neither is any desire.
The question that comes to mind when I desire is not if it is selfish - rather is it based in the truth that we have discovered and are we being thus then true to ourselves.

interesting stuff. One thing i know for sure about a relationship is that we should try our best to not become dependent on being around this person, in order to allow ourselves a feeling of love, acceptance and dignity. This is unhealthy and mis-lead. Love is true only when it is expressed freely, under any circumstance that we have gotten ourselves into or have not gotten ourselves into. It is our birth right to feel this within us, as it is also ours to share it to whomever we desire! Think about little children, they seek out companionship sometimes, yet, they never until later on,lack feeling of love for themselves intermittent within or without companionship. It is one of the reason we are so intrigued by children. They are free spirited, free loving and accepting.
Like we can and have a clear right to be.
Love you being. ^.^


--------------------
The mind is a creative tool. It searches to protect you, through message sensations(feelings). It is no different than a computer, you need to make sure its anti-virus program is in check and that it doesnt have a script that limits your experience, because of to much precaution.

And remember the computer does not appear to respond to words of anger and frustration - just give it input, in the form of new meanings that you know to be true and its messages to you and the limits it lays out for you, will change.

Guilt is an outcome of believing you are the cause of the problems.

Yet, we are not a cause to something, we see is negative or bad - Unless you believe your intentions are directed towards a bad outcome....

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Re: Is companionship selfish? [Re: JoseLibrado]
    #7215283 -

Thank you Jose

why is it that children are this way and adults not? Do they know how to FILL UP at the love station in ways that we forget, because they are so open that they truly are fulfilled when someone hugs them or holds them close?

you are exactly right on that, children are that way. but because they are that way they also have to feel deeply. i deem this very good, but it requires immense vulnerability, to cry straight at a person's face ev en if they will turn away in disgust, and to sit there crying until someone receives and holds you

because when no one will receive your tears you dam them up, and in so doing eradicate the river, and you suffocate and dehydrate and become lifeless, an adult

and then you guard yourself

but children can't guard, they can only be naked, and generally, the are allowed to be received, they will not be shunned for their nudity, whereas we might have to go lock ourselves up and hide our nudity, to cry where no one will ever see it, and things like that.

i have no reservations about crying in public though, my teacher thought i was happy about getting a question right, but no i was amazed at the miracle of life

which is only a miracle when you KNOW it is and therefore "think" but only "think" because of "believe" and only believe because of KNOW and only know because of experience

it is devoid of intellectualizations.


--------------------
I am the MacDaddy of Heimlich County, I play it Straight Up Yo!

....I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm, to feel connected enough to step aside and weep like a widow, to feel inspired, to fathom the power, to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain, to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human......
Om Namah Shivaya, I tell you What!

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Re: Is companionship selfish? [Re: leery11]
    #7215289 -

Now, wanting this, will make you suffer.

IMO this is non-sense and I must have debated this issue with you several times.:confused:

Desire does NOT cause suffering. Attachment/addiction to having that which we desire does.

(I would prefer a companion. And I am fine if I don't have one.)

(I need to have a companion to feel happy. I will be less without one.)

Do you not see the difference between these two statements?

Also IMO.

Giving selflessly is non-sense. We always do for ourselves first and foremost and every benefit to others is the result of a skillful choice in giving to ourselves.

Edited by Icelander (07/23/07 07:37 PM)

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Re: Is companionship selfish? [Re: Icelander]
    #7215366 -

thanks for clarifying again then

right i see it

do you think that the model of Jesus on cross is unrealistic for a human, to be that selfless? That giving? Do you think we can be wired up to the psychedelic consciousness ALWAYS so much so that we would do any single thing for any single one, without flinching, without phased, and genuinely not minding?

I do and maybe I compare myself to that too much.
happy is fickle
i am happy as a clam at times
other times i realize that right now i'm in moratorium and there is no guarantee of my life meaning anything in society's standards and that i do not even have relationships with my peers that would sustain me in an adequate and fulfilling way as of now and then i mope

then i know that moping is bullshit and figure out not to mope.

and i just do my discipline things, and they bring comfort, joy sometimes, happiness sometimes, generally a sense of playfulness

i mean, honestly i feel like i deserve to have the love that i'm asking for, but wonder if the flaw is in the asking
i.e., the desiring.

saying, well i want it this and this and this way, but i know that no matter what i want, i need better because my imagination is weak and sustained by an ego that cannot entirely fathom the extent of greatness that is possible

in essence "thy will be done, BUT i would like it done in this way.... but since i could be wrong.... thy will be done.... but... but.... but...."


--------------------
I am the MacDaddy of Heimlich County, I play it Straight Up Yo!

....I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm, to feel connected enough to step aside and weep like a widow, to feel inspired, to fathom the power, to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain, to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human......
Om Namah Shivaya, I tell you What!

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Re: Is companionship selfish? [Re: leery11]
    #7215452 -

Yes I do think the model of Jesus as selfless is unrealistic for anyone.
Yet it is not an evil to put oneself first. It's healthy IMO and totally natural to what we are as organisms. It's all in the understanding of what is best for oneself. The skillful choice of knowing what true happiness entails, practically assures that there will be a trickle down effect to others and to the world.


I do not believe there is a flaw in asking for what you want. The flaw  comes in the addiction to getting what we ask for. Sometimes you win and sometimes you lose. That's life.  If you can handle not getting what you ask for there will be no suffering. Yet we are taught to suffer by our culture so it's not easy to change this program.

I spent most of my life believing some partner was the answer to my unhappiness and loneliness. I went through many "perfect" partners before I realized that the flaw and unhappiness was in my mind and thoughts and programs. I have been working on this. Now I have an awesome partner in my life. Truly she is wonderful. Yet I still find myself often unhappy and unfulfilled. Now how can this be? The problem is in my programs and in the thoughts they generate. This is my work for this life. To change these programs, not to make sure that Veritas never leaves me.

Leery11, I don't know a male in this culture who doesn't go through a variation of what you are going through. It's the cultural program. I think :grin:, like me, you think about things way too much. Not too deeply, because that's good and you are good at thinking. But, in trying to figure out things that have no answers and not being able to let go. I have this problem for sure and it is an addiction and it does certainly cause suffering.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Is companionship selfish? [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #7215539 -

Huehuecoyotl said:
Every action is purely selfish...and that is just fine.


.


--------------------
Life isn't about waiting for the storm to pass
It's about learning to dance in the rain

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Re: Is companionship selfish? [Re: AtrocitY]
    #7215743 -

"IMO this is non-sense and I must have debated this issue with you several times. " I hope you do not have an expectation about his non-sense, this is not what love is. Love does not count, it see's each moment as original and completly devoid of the past and future. This non-sense is not non-sense to him, it does no good if you intend on helping someone, with special care to oneself, to say this. Love accepts and repsects every thought, let us rejoice within its infinite splendor and relive its absolute truth!

Although jesus did seem self-less within his actions his self chose whatever it seems to you that makes him self-less in the eyes. Choosing is an expression of the selfs truth, jesus did is not self-less, rather I interpret that he saw his self as unseperate from others and thus his acts seemed to be self less, coming from a prespective in a world where acts are chosen on the basis that we are seperate!

C you all, Love you!


--------------------
The mind is a creative tool. It searches to protect you, through message sensations(feelings). It is no different than a computer, you need to make sure its anti-virus program is in check and that it doesnt have a script that limits your experience, because of to much precaution.

And remember the computer does not appear to respond to words of anger and frustration - just give it input, in the form of new meanings that you know to be true and its messages to you and the limits it lays out for you, will change.

Guilt is an outcome of believing you are the cause of the problems.

Yet, we are not a cause to something, we see is negative or bad - Unless you believe your intentions are directed towards a bad outcome....

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Re: Is companionship selfish? [Re: JoseLibrado]
    #7217269 -

Well in a way I could give up on having aspirations for the future

it is just that these kinds of people do not live the life I want.

That's the catch you know, the I, I want. I want a life that makes me happy and gives me joy and creativity and freedom.

Now it seems that this I has agency to build and choose and create for himself. That if he wanted to he could even go to India.

But when further examined I am not sure if that is so, because when I look at this I's other goal. Friends, companions, lovers. I see that it even made some very great movies, moves that were very very hard for it to make, moves that really hurt, but in so doing liberated tremendous joy in having finally done, thinking that it has finally taken a step toward is beautiful vision, only to have it stepped on.

This stepping hurts. This makes the I not care, but if the I doesn't care it sits in its room and sleeps all day growing more and more weary knowing that something fundamental is wrong and that it can return to a state of childhood grace where it is allowed to freely and nakedly express itself and make romance with the world, and it wants to do that.

And it just isn't sure if it's being allowed, or if its being toyed with, or if its not going to have what it wants until every iota of want is stripped from its soul, and then when it gets it, it will be no big deal.
:frown:
i don't want this to be no big deal
:smile:
i don't want the suffering attached with the big deal not having,
and i'm getting more used to fixing that all the time, but

when it happens i want it to be special otherwise why would i have it if it is just normal and ugly and mundane, touch devoid of CONSCIOUSNESS and MIND, touch devoid of EMOTION and compassion
it's like touch from a robot

damn my eyes!

I may have it right in front of me right now, but she has walls put up. She won't really look at me for more than a half a second of eye-contact.


--------------------
I am the MacDaddy of Heimlich County, I play it Straight Up Yo!

....I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm, to feel connected enough to step aside and weep like a widow, to feel inspired, to fathom the power, to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain, to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human......
Om Namah Shivaya, I tell you What!

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Re: Is companionship selfish? [Re: leery11]
    #7217278 -

leery11 said:
damn my eyes!


Tool does rule. :headbang:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: Is companionship selfish? [Re: leery11]
    #7217368 -

I've heard the phrase "you can't have a partner until you become whole with yourself". This is a frustrating paradox for me.. I feel like most people do not live by this but it seems to hold some valuable truth in regards to creating a beneficial relationship for two rather than a dependent one.

It sucks when I give my love, expecting nothing in return, and I get nothing in return :frown:

In this case I believe desire fulfilled is more desirable than no desire. No desire seems to continue leading me to apathy when my lack of desire does not produce desirable results.

This is a false game I play..


--------------------

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Re: Is companionship selfish? [Re: EternalCowabunga]
    #7217391 -

IMO, no one is "whole"

Love given if real but never returned is never lost or wasted.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Is companionship selfish? [Re: Icelander]
    #7217482 -

EternalCowabunga said:
In this case I believe desire fulfilled is more desirable than no desire. No desire seems to continue leading me to apathy when my lack of desire does not produce desirable results.



Yeah man.

I think people like us are more whole than the people who have all the relationships, as our abnormality has forced us to look at things most never will, things that humble and smooth out rigid surfaces.

Let's not play games, let's just be as naked as we can.


--------------------
I am the MacDaddy of Heimlich County, I play it Straight Up Yo!

....I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm, to feel connected enough to step aside and weep like a widow, to feel inspired, to fathom the power, to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain, to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human......
Om Namah Shivaya, I tell you What!

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Re: Is companionship selfish? [Re: leery11]
    #7217667 -

I think people like us are more whole than the people who have all the relationships, as our abnormality has forced us to look at things most never will, things that humble and smooth out rigid surfaces.


This sounds like someone trying to make themselves feel better by looking down on others. I suggest a close look at your programs.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Is companionship selfish? [Re: leery11]
    #7217842 -

I believe Leery, that people like us have a more difficult time giving love without attatchment to the results probably because we learnt it from our parents. As a child, I never recieved unconditional love from my mother.

I think our abnormality is an idea that has been pushed on us by being in a situation where we gave our love unconditionally and the person on the other side was completely emotionally closed off perhaps, and so we became convinced that we did not really exist (our love was not real). I now am practicing at becoming better at recognizing love and trying to reciprocrate that love.

I understand what you mean about looking at things that most never will I think... my belief systems were very estranged from the belief systems of the majority and this caused alot of strangeness and conflict which had to be reconciled with alot of searching


--------------------

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Re: Is companionship selfish? [Re: Icelander]
    #7217851 -

"Giving selflessly is non-sense. We always do for ourselves first and foremost and every benefit to others is the result of a skillful choice in giving to ourselves."

Come on now, don't be so jaded. I have helped people with no thought of payoff, even subtle payoff like feeling good about myself for being altruistic. When I was about 20 and hanging out in a wooded reservation, a man (with his secretary apparently) had his car battery die and he asked me if I had jumper cables. I started his car and refused the money he offered me. It wasn't because I was rich theat I declined the money it was because I was trying to make a social statement that for me was backed by a spiritual principle. I used to reflect on BE HERE NOW quite a bit and the page that says 'when there is a task to be done, become the task.' Or again, 'do without being the doer.' It was spiritual work for me, which paradoxically was NOT for me because it was intended to diminish the ego, not enhance it - to be a servant at that moment.

Years later, while returning with my fiancee and two dogs to Maryland from New Jersey (I used to set up a mad scientist's lab on Halloween for the kids at my parent's house), my car crapped out just before the Baltimore Harbor Tunnel at about 10:00 at night. The thing is, I had just passed a broken down Mercedes and thought to myself "Gee, I'm glad that's not ME," when BANG. My car crapped out. Instant karma. Not knowing what the cause was, nor being a mechanic, a car drove up and a man stepped out. I became guarded. He had an open beer and a joint going. He stopped to help and offered me a hit which I declined, but, I offered him $10 to drive to the next rest stop, and call AAA for me. I wrote down the number for him and he declined the $10! I thought, fat chance he'll call, and I wonder why he declined the money. We waited for a tow truck out of hope, and first, one showed up for the Mercedes, but a few minutes later, one showed up for us! It occurred to me that the day after All Soul's Day (Halloween) was All Saint's Day, and that stoner acted like a saint as far as I was concerned.

The tow truck driver said he could tow us, but it was quite a distance and it was gonna cost me. He said the center contact on my distributor had sheared off. A neighbor had helped me replace the points on my Plymouth Arrow, but he hadn't lubricated the spring and shaft. As Providence would have it, I kept the old parts in my glove box and the wrecker driver threw them in, and while untimed, the car was drivable. I don't remember if I tipped the driver, but he wasn't helping me with his hand out either.

These kinds of events find connection in my mind, like "Who's writing this script?" as Ram Dass was wont to say. Selfless action, altruism, doing without a doer is a very real motive. Jesus called it love, Buddha called it Compassion. It is a transpersonal center of motivation, which, as the word suggests, transcends personal interest and acts in the interest of other embodied beings with the premise that beneath the apparent separateness, we are One being. "Love your neighbor as yourself" is a command to recognize the Wisdom of Equanimity, from a Christian perspective. The essential nature of my neighbor (a real asshole from my ego's perspective) is as common to me and you as is the atmosphere we all breath.

I remember a meditation on tape that Ram Dass was taught which helped him to grasp the shift from ego to Self, from belly to heart. Doing the OM MANI PADME HUM while visualizing a bucket dipping into the Navel Center and drawing up a dense, heavy bucket of the water element and dumping it into the Heart Center whereupon the heavy bucket becomes light (in weight) and Light (as in fiery illumination). Being "Centauric" has a positive symbolism for Ken Wilber as a healthy integration of our body-mind into a whole being, but for me the symbol illustrates our mythic condition in which our whole being is dominated by our embodied-egohood. Even before one's physical prowess wanes from age, it behooves us to transcend such domination of the embodied-ego even if one is powerful, fast, and hung like a horse, or else as you correctly say, through our addiction to the adolescent vainglory of embodied selfhood, we become the cause of our own suffering. I'll tell you, I had to have my 6-year molar in my upper right side extracted yesterday. I am mourning the loss of a mere tooth - my first molar - MORE than the lens of my right eye which was replaced by a plastic one 13 years ago! I won't destroy two additional teeth to wear a bridge, and I won't know if I'll have enough bone for a dental implant for several months. We die (and mourn) the loss of our embodied-ego in dribs and drabs. Despite all my meditative preparation, I DEMANDED Nitrous Oxide, and paid extra for the gas (Wow! did I get high). It is a lesson to me which I'm sharing with you. Our ego is primarily an embodied-ego and we really have to work at detachment and its corollaries, selflessness and selfless action.

Peace.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: Is companionship selfish? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #7217884 -

Quote:
I was trying to make a social statement that for me was backed by a spiritual principle. I used to reflect on BE HERE NOW quite a bit and the page that says 'when there is a task to be done, become the task.' Or again, 'do without being the doer.' It was spiritual work for me, which paradoxically was NOT for me because it was intended to diminish the ego, not enhance it - to be a servant at that moment.


What I'm hearing you say is that your actions were motivated by enlightened self-interest: YOU wanted to make a social statement, YOU wanted to express your spiritual principles, YOU wanted to diminish your ego, YOU wanted to be a servant, YOU wanted to perform spiritual work, YOU wanted to act without receiving a reward.

This is selfish, though not in the destructive sense.  We can be selfishly constructive...in fact, we MUST (IMO) if we want to "be the change we wish to see in the world."  :peace:

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Re: Is companionship selfish? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #7217910 -

Thank you Markos
EternalCowabunga said:
I think our abnormality is an idea that has been pushed on us by being in a situation where we gave our love unconditionally and the person on the other side was completely emotionally closed off perhaps, and so we became convinced that we did not really exist (our love was not real). I now am practicing at becoming better at recognizing love and trying to reciprocrate that love.



Yes, yes indeed this is it precisely.


--------------------
I am the MacDaddy of Heimlich County, I play it Straight Up Yo!

....I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm, to feel connected enough to step aside and weep like a widow, to feel inspired, to fathom the power, to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain, to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human......
Om Namah Shivaya, I tell you What!

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Re: Is companionship selfish? [Re: Veritas]
    #7218134 -

The ego is simply the perspective of the psychosomatic individual, equipped with two eyes that are located in the front of the head, unlike other species which see independently, or even behind simultaneously. The ego, or 'I,' develops a directional perspective, much like the 'eye,' the organ of vision.

The thousand-eyed Argus of Greek myth, and the eye-laden, perpendicular, wheels-within-wheels of the Hebrew prophet Ezekiel's vision both tell us something about an omniscient perspective. There is no escaping the fact that as long as we are human embodiments, we have these physical and psychical correlates to our identity as an individual organism separate from others. My self-interest had a somewhat cosmic identity inasmuch as the 'I' or "YOU" from your perspective wanted a certain perspective to be shared by the individual I helped, but also by everyone I encountered. The Self that I wanted others to identify with themselves was more than a social self, more than a sense of 'usness' as a community of embodied-egos. The Self-identity that I wanted to impart to others (howsoever naively) was more like a Monist perspective - that there is in Reality an only One incorporeal Self (or non-ego). You know, that Zen saying about One moon, but numberless reflections of the moon in every lake and puddle.

Somehow, the act of sharing or the possibility of imparting had a higher priority in the process than the ego (me) who was intending it. Being the acid head that I was, I Knew that Awareness Itself was more important than 'my' binocular awareness.

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