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InvisibleVeritas
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Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
Re: Is companionship selfish? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #7218230 - 07/24/07 01:45 PM (16 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Somehow, the act of sharing or the possibility of imparting had a higher priority in the process than the ego (me) who was intending it.




Yes!  Enlightened self-interest!!  :smile:  The moment we cease scheming ways for our social self to be accepted, loved, worshipped, feared, etc...we can act from our deeply-held values.

If we can ask ourselves not "what's in it for me" but rather "if everyone acted like me, would I want to live on this planet?" we can become a conduit for love, peace, well-being, trust, acceptance and joy. This could never be viewed as a sacrifice, as it is the best investment anyone can possibly make.  :heart:

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Is companionship selfish? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #7218543 - 07/24/07 03:06 PM (16 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
"Giving selflessly is non-sense. We always do for ourselves first and foremost and every benefit to others is the result of a skillful choice in giving to ourselves."

Come on now, don't be so jaded. I have helped people with no thought of payoff, even subtle payoff like feeling good about myself for being altruistic. When I was about 20 and hanging out in a wooded reservation, a man (with his secretary apparently) had his car battery die and he asked me if I had jumper cables. I started his car and refused the money he offered me. It wasn't because I was rich theat I declined the money it was because I was trying to make a social statement that for me was backed by a spiritual principle. I used to reflect on BE HERE NOW quite a bit and the page that says 'when there is a task to be done, become the task.' Or again, 'do without being the doer.' It was spiritual work for me, which paradoxically was NOT for me because it was intended to diminish the ego, not enhance it - to be a servant at that moment.

Years later, while returning with my fiancee and two dogs to Maryland from New Jersey (I used to set up a mad scientist's lab on Halloween for the kids at my parent's house), my car crapped out just before the Baltimore Harbor Tunnel at about 10:00 at night. The thing is, I had just passed a broken down Mercedes and thought to myself "Gee, I'm glad that's not ME," when BANG. My car crapped out. Instant karma. Not knowing what the cause was, nor being a mechanic, a car drove up and a man stepped out. I became guarded. He had an open beer and a joint going. He stopped to help and offered me a hit which I declined, but, I offered him $10 to drive to the next rest stop, and call AAA for me. I wrote down the number for him and he declined the $10! I thought, fat chance he'll call, and I wonder why he declined the money. We waited for a tow truck out of hope, and first, one showed up for the Mercedes, but a few minutes later, one showed up for us! It occurred to me that the day after All Soul's Day (Halloween) was All Saint's Day, and that stoner acted like a saint as far as I was concerned.

The tow truck driver said he could tow us, but it was quite a distance and it was gonna cost me. He said the center contact on my distributor had sheared off. A neighbor had helped me replace the points on my Plymouth Arrow, but he hadn't lubricated the spring and shaft. As Providence would have it, I kept the old parts in my glove box and the wrecker driver threw them in, and while untimed, the car was drivable. I don't remember if I tipped the driver, but he wasn't helping me with his hand out either.

These kinds of events find connection in my mind, like "Who's writing this script?" as Ram Dass was wont to say. Selfless action, altruism, doing without a doer is a very real motive. Jesus called it love, Buddha called it Compassion. It is a transpersonal center of motivation, which, as the word suggests, transcends personal interest and acts in the interest of other embodied beings with the premise that beneath the apparent separateness, we are One being. "Love your neighbor as yourself" is a command to recognize the Wisdom of Equanimity, from a Christian perspective. The essential nature of my neighbor (a real asshole from my ego's perspective) is as common to me and you as is the atmosphere we all breath.

I remember a meditation on tape that Ram Dass was taught which helped him to grasp the shift from ego to Self, from belly to heart. Doing the OM MANI PADME HUM while visualizing a bucket dipping into the Navel Center and drawing up a dense, heavy bucket of the water element and dumping it into the Heart Center whereupon the heavy bucket becomes light (in weight) and Light (as in fiery illumination). Being "Centauric" has a positive symbolism for Ken Wilber as a healthy integration of our body-mind into a whole being, but for me the symbol illustrates our mythic condition in which our whole being is dominated by our embodied-egohood. Even before one's physical prowess wanes from age, it behooves us to transcend such domination of the embodied-ego even if one is powerful, fast, and hung like a horse, or else as you correctly say, through our addiction to the adolescent vainglory of embodied selfhood, we become the cause of our own suffering. I'll tell you, I had to have my 6-year molar in my upper right side extracted yesterday. I am mourning the loss of a mere tooth - my first molar - MORE than the lens of my right eye which was replaced by a plastic one 13 years ago! I won't destroy two additional teeth to wear a bridge, and I won't know if I'll have enough bone for a dental implant for several months. We die (and mourn) the loss of our embodied-ego in dribs and drabs. Despite all my meditative preparation, I DEMANDED Nitrous Oxide, and paid extra for the gas (Wow! did I get high). It is a lesson to me which I'm sharing with you. Our ego is primarily an embodied-ego and we really have to work at detachment and its corollaries, selflessness and selfless action.

Peace.




I'm not jaded here. In fact quite the opposite. Maybe you missed some of my posts here or don't understand them.

If you hadn't thought what you were doing was good or right then you wouldn't have done it. We all do what makes us feel right inside no matter whether that works because it was skillful or whether it doesn't because we don't really understand how to be happy. If you can't see the connection then you can't.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

Edited by Icelander (07/24/07 04:49 PM)

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Offlineleery11
I Tell You What!

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Re: Is companionship selfish? [Re: Icelander]
    #7227334 - 07/26/07 04:36 PM (16 years, 7 months ago)

I realized that what I am looking for is to know that someone will not walk away from me whenever it is first made convenient, that I am worthy of hearing, and seeing, and touching, not with plastic hands.

I realized this because I was sitting and speaking for many hours, and what I wanted wasn't to speak and be heard, what I wanted was to know that I was worth being spoken and heard, and that this will not simply disappear never to happen again. That I matter on a soul level, not as someone to passively exchange noises and ribbits and squawks with.

I want to build a temple.


--------------------
I am the MacDaddy of Heimlich County, I play it Straight Up Yo!

....I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm, to feel connected enough to step aside and weep like a widow, to feel inspired, to fathom the power, to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain, to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human......
Om Namah Shivaya, I tell you What!

Edited by leery11 (07/26/07 04:37 PM)

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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Is companionship selfish? [Re: leery11]
    #7227352 - 07/26/07 04:39 PM (16 years, 7 months ago)

No person will ever give this to you. The only person who can change your sense of worth is yourself. The only way to be resilient enough to handle people walking away is to develop your inner strength.

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Offlineleery11
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Re: Is companionship selfish? [Re: Veritas]
    #7227360 - 07/26/07 04:40 PM (16 years, 7 months ago)

Right and wrong.

That's not really what I mean. I mean I want someone to actually be friends with. Who will treat me as a friend does, with respect, courtesy, and love, regardless of weather.

My worth is not in question, I can channel tremendously positive things into people if I'm allowed.


--------------------
I am the MacDaddy of Heimlich County, I play it Straight Up Yo!

....I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm, to feel connected enough to step aside and weep like a widow, to feel inspired, to fathom the power, to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain, to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human......
Om Namah Shivaya, I tell you What!

Edited by leery11 (07/26/07 04:41 PM)

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Is companionship selfish? [Re: leery11]
    #7227439 - 07/26/07 05:03 PM (16 years, 7 months ago)

You seem to have a distorted picture of yourself.


I can channel tremendously positive things into people if I'm allowed.

If you're allowed?:hissyfit: I'm sorry but this just seems like whining to me. You can't have things your way so you complain how people are keeping you from what you want.

You want the world to conform to your distorted self image. Well that's common enough but it ain't gonna happen IMO. The world is exactly the way it is. People including you and me are so dysfunctional that we can't treat each other well. I doubt you could be the friend you are looking for. I believe if you were then you wouldn't be writing this post.

I'm not trying to be mean here. I'm giving you some feedback on what I see in your claims. Just my 2 cents.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Offlineleery11
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Re: Is companionship selfish? [Re: Icelander]
    #7227501 - 07/26/07 05:26 PM (16 years, 7 months ago)

Well if I tried to talk to you and you didn't want to talk to me, would I be allowed to have a friendship with you?

If I wanted to spend time with you and you didn't want to spend it with me, would I be allowed to spend time with you?

If i wanted to touch you and you didn't want to touch me, would I be allowed to touch you?

I seek, I am flawed, I am human, I am infallible pope.


--------------------
I am the MacDaddy of Heimlich County, I play it Straight Up Yo!

....I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm, to feel connected enough to step aside and weep like a widow, to feel inspired, to fathom the power, to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain, to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human......
Om Namah Shivaya, I tell you What!

Edited by leery11 (07/26/07 05:28 PM)

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Is companionship selfish? [Re: leery11]
    #7227512 - 07/26/07 05:31 PM (16 years, 7 months ago)

Do you need to have a friendship with everyone? Lots of folk don't want to talk to me. :rofl2: I'm a real snot. But that doesn't bother me much as I'm not overly impressed with them. Even I have found friends though, but I don't expect them to give me what I need to be happy. I supply that or not for myself.

Once I didn't need anyone some really good friends just showed up. It took me many many years to get to that place. It was a real struggle and still is at times.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Offlineleery11
I Tell You What!

Registered: 06/24/05
Posts: 5,998
Last seen: 8 years, 11 months
Re: Is companionship selfish? [Re: Icelander]
    #7227524 - 07/26/07 05:34 PM (16 years, 7 months ago)

need and want are such blurry terms so i don't know how to answer that

i need certain things in order to have experiences of beauty and joy and bliss and freedom and satisfaction with my life

if i do not have them i feel normal and/or apathetic, slow, dull, and restless,

sort of

what i would need/want would be people to share beauty with.


--------------------
I am the MacDaddy of Heimlich County, I play it Straight Up Yo!

....I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm, to feel connected enough to step aside and weep like a widow, to feel inspired, to fathom the power, to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain, to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human......
Om Namah Shivaya, I tell you What!

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InvisibleIcelander
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Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
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Re: Is companionship selfish? [Re: leery11]
    #7227539 - 07/26/07 05:40 PM (16 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

leery11 said:
need and want are such blurry terms so i don't know how to answer that

i need certain things in order to have experiences of beauty and joy and bliss and freedom and satisfaction with my life

if i do not have them i feel normal and/or apathetic, slow, dull, and restless,

sort of

what i would need/want would be people to share beauty with.




They are very distinct terms for me but maybe that distinction will make more sense down the road for you. It took me a long time.

If you need/want to share beauty with others then just share it whether they acknowledge it or not. It's still beauty you are still sharing it. I have found those that are unable to find love and friendship are usually throwing up roadblocks that they are invested in staying unaware of. Maybe this is the case for you. Maybe you project neediness. Do you need others to be happy or feel fulfilled? I wouldn't choose a friend like that.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Offlinehummermania00
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Re: Is companionship selfish? [Re: Icelander]
    #7227660 - 07/26/07 06:39 PM (16 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Quote:

leery11 said:
need and want are such blurry terms so i don't know how to answer that

i need certain things in order to have experiences of beauty and joy and bliss and freedom and satisfaction with my life

if i do not have them i feel normal and/or apathetic, slow, dull, and restless,

sort of

what i would need/want would be people to share beauty with.




They are very distinct terms for me but maybe that distinction will make more sense down the road for you. It took me a long time.

If you need/want to share beauty with others then just share it whether they acknowledge it or not. It's still beauty you are still sharing it. I have found those that are unable to find love and friendship are usually throwing up roadblocks that they are invested in staying unaware of. Maybe this is the case for you. Maybe you project neediness. Do you need others to be happy or feel fulfilled? I wouldn't choose a friend like that.




Does it derail the thread if I say that I am someone that does not want or need companionship? This drives my wife crazy.

Perhaps there are more people expressing this these days, as opposed to earlier decades when it would have been considered "abnormal".


--------------------
You are a fortunate person indeed, if you can begin each day accepting the fact that during that day there will be ups and downs, good breaks and bad ones, disappointments, surprises, and unexpected turns of events.

When you have solved all the mysteries of life you long for death, for it is but another mystery of life.

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Offlineleery11
I Tell You What!

Registered: 06/24/05
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Re: Is companionship selfish? [Re: Icelander]
    #7227670 - 07/26/07 06:46 PM (16 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Do you need others to be happy or feel fulfilled?




I don't know, you know why I don't know? I don't know why I don't know. There are things a human can do to sustain senses of joy and satisfaction and maximize pleasure, and some of those things are elicited almost entirely by social interactions of various forms and also sexual interactions of various forms.

There are solitary joys as well especially when delved into the meditation activities.

This question is baseless to me, and my answers are baseless to me.
I am finding words really ugly and primitive right now.

I can say that there are times when I would highly enjoy the presence of another who would act as a source of mutual inspiration, to give me new ideas and thoughts that are not "my own" and are not stagnant redundant ruminations. People can create very interesting chemistries and have a lot of fun and joy together that cannot be experienced while the individual is simply on his own.

You know this. Everyone knows it. Whether it falls in line with various philosophical or spiritual viewpoints I'm actually not concerned about at all.

I simply desire, especially, physical intimacy, however, with this intimacy an expression of a complex myriad of emotional and spiritual components.


--------------------
I am the MacDaddy of Heimlich County, I play it Straight Up Yo!

....I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm, to feel connected enough to step aside and weep like a widow, to feel inspired, to fathom the power, to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain, to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human......
Om Namah Shivaya, I tell you What!

Edited by leery11 (07/26/07 06:47 PM)

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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Is companionship selfish? [Re: Icelander]
    #7227789 - 07/26/07 07:32 PM (16 years, 7 months ago)

"If you hadn't thought what you were doing was good or right then you wouldn't have done it. We all do what makes us feel right inside no matter whether that works because it was skillful or whether it doesn't because we don't really understand how to be happy."

'Being' "happy," was not equivalent to 'doing' the right thing. The right thing seemed to be the compassionate thing, the altruistic thing or the selfless thing. It was a moment to help someone in need, and being empathetic, I understood what it was like to receive help. It wasn't a matter of emotional satisfaction resulting in a feeling of happiness. Happiness for me is just like icing on a cake, it is not the substantial matter. "Fulfillment," a term I gleaned from BE HERE NOW, is more descriptive of what I remember seeking - a desireless place just tinged with the emotion of 'joy,' not elation, not happiness. In fact, desirelessness untinged by joy is already fulfillment. It happens after good sex or a good meal, but it is dependent on those satieties.

Perhaps I did not read, or understand or agree with the conclusions of the posts you mention, but I do Know what fulfillment is, as I know the transient emotional high of happiness. Happy is fun but fleeting. Joy can be abiding. Perhaps its not the names that matter but the constancy - trait over state.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Offlineravin0ff
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Re: Is companionship selfish? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #7227843 - 07/26/07 07:51 PM (16 years, 7 months ago)

leery i suggest you take icelanders advice and "examine your programming"

you seem to be just shrugging off the things he says because they don't agree with your unsatisfying mind-sets.

in my opinion, you're "buying into" the loneliness programming.

friends and companions are better viewed as occasional gifts/bonuses to the present, not fundamental requirements.

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Is companionship selfish? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #7230026 - 07/27/07 10:34 AM (16 years, 7 months ago)

"Fulfillment,

Call it what you will. It's all the same to me. Happiness, fulfillment, joy etc. You make my point that we do these things to achieve something we want.;)


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Is companionship selfish? [Re: leery11]
    #7230031 - 07/27/07 10:37 AM (16 years, 7 months ago)

I simply desire,

Yes you do. But are you addicted to what you desire? It appears so. Then according to Buddha, suffering awaits.

That's all OK in my book. Suffering is an amazing teacher and offerings it's own reward in the learning.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Registered: 04/01/07
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Re: Is companionship selfish? [Re: Icelander]
    #7230093 - 07/27/07 11:00 AM (16 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

That's all OK in my book.




I checked Amazon.com and couldn't find it.


--------------------

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Is companionship selfish? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7230103 - 07/27/07 11:04 AM (16 years, 7 months ago)

Look under Swami Beyondananda.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Is companionship selfish? [Re: Icelander]
    #7230158 - 07/27/07 11:16 AM (16 years, 7 months ago)

Well I did look under 'Don Juan and Me' and 'Trout Fishing for Dummies...'


--------------------

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Is companionship selfish? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7230167 - 07/27/07 11:18 AM (16 years, 7 months ago)

I'm no dummy when it comes to trout fishing. Just ask Sinbad.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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