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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Acting selflessly, the biggest load of crap since Santa Claus.
    #11536699 -

Even if I were to give up my life for something or someone it would be because I though it was the right thing to do the best thing to do, the most loving thing to do, the thing I should do, the most spiritual thing to do. All that satisfies me in my own eyes and makes me feel good about myself or within myself.

CAN'T YOU FUCKING GET THAT!


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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Acting selflessly, the biggest load of crap since Santa Claus. [Re: Icelander]
    #11536717 -

Icelander said:
Even if I were to give up my life for something or someone it would be because I though it was the right thing to do the best thing to do, the most loving thing to do, the thing I should do, the most spiritual thing to do. All that satisfies me in my own eyes and makes me feel good about myself or within myself.

CAN'T YOU FUCKING GET THAT!



but it doesn't always make you feel good inside

sometimes you feel used

sometimes you feel confused(question whether you should focus on yourself more)

and sometimes you feel depressed

there are still times of doubt and feelings of inadequacy

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Re: Acting selflessly, the biggest load of crap since Santa Claus. [Re: Icelander]
    #11536943 -

Nothing would satisfy you if you were dead, so yea, sacrificing yourself for another (assuming you value your life more than the person and you sacrifice it anyways) is a selfless and suicidal act (the first implies the second).

That's just the ugly nature of the beast called altruism. :shrug:

The idea that all acts are selfish is a fallacy. Some morons actually do sacrifice higher values (such as their lives) for the lower value (such as a random homeless beggars life)  without any regard for themselves and think that that is the moral and right thing to do.

Nothing could be further from the truth.

They are remembered as heroes but everyone knows in the back of their minds that that kind of man is the biggest fool and immoral idiot.

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Re: Acting selflessly, the biggest load of crap since Santa Claus. [Re: RationalEgo]
    #11536959 -

Fools they may be, but nonetheless I want as many of those fools surrounding me as I can.  Altruism is great if I can benefit from someone else's untamed generosity.


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Re: Acting selflessly, the biggest load of crap since Santa Claus. [Re: RationalEgo]
    #11536970 -

Wrong IMO. No one is talking about what happens after you are dead. All acts of a living human are directed toward satisfying some aspect of the self. As I gave example of.


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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Acting selflessly, the biggest load of crap since Santa Claus. [Re: Icelander]
    #11536986 -

some people actually care more about whats right then they do about personal happiness

your assuming that others are incapable simply because YOU are not...

of course there are benefits for self included with this as their should be

that does not make it selfish

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Re: Acting selflessly, the biggest load of crap since Santa Claus. [Re: Life Upon Death]
    #11536998 -

If doing what's right does not make me happy or grant me happiness in the afterlife, then I have no rational reason for behaving morally.


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Re: Acting selflessly, the biggest load of crap since Santa Claus. [Re: Icelander]
    #11537000 -

Does the fact that you feel good about it mean that that is the reason you're doing it?


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Re: Acting selflessly, the biggest load of crap since Santa Claus. [Re: Silversoul]
    #11537022 -

Do we ever behave in a way that is ultimately motivated by something other than the desire for happiness or the aversion for unhappiness?


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Re: Acting selflessly, the biggest load of crap since Santa Claus. [Re: Icelander]
    #11537052 -

so, do you see any qualitative difference between fully representing your capabilities as such, or say opting out to get baked and play video games intead.  if there is no selflessness, which self are you serving?


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Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.

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Re: Acting selflessly, the biggest load of crap since Santa Claus. [Re: deCypher]
    #11537061 -

deCypher said:
Do we ever behave in a way that is ultimately motivated by something other than the desire for happiness or the aversion for unhappiness?



I don't know.  It's an unfalsifiable assertion, and I find it to be a common cop-out put forward by bitter cynics who just want another excuse to hate humanity.


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Re: Acting selflessly, the biggest load of crap since Santa Claus. [Re: Silversoul]
    #11537072 -

Please give another ultimate motivation then as an alternative theory.  I personally think that the pursuit of happiness and avoidance of unhappiness is the best underlying explanation of all our actions.


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Re: Acting selflessly, the biggest load of crap since Santa Claus. [Re: Silversoul]
    #11537082 -

Silversoul said:
Does the fact that you feel good about it mean that that is the reason you're doing it?




Yes, you could also describe it as doing the right thing, that satisfies ones personal beliefs making one feel like they are living up to personal ethics. Which of course give a feeling of satisfaction on some level. This does not mean others do not benefit from a selfish act. In fact people often do. I can give examples if you like.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Acting selflessly, the biggest load of crap since Santa Claus. [Re: deCypher]
    #11537112 -

Quote:
deCypher said: I personally think that the pursuit of happiness and avoidance of unhappiness is the best underlying explanation of all our actions.



Perhaps of course this is just by definition as happiness could be defined as the most desirable state to be in.


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Re: Acting selflessly, the biggest load of crap since Santa Claus. [Re: Icelander]
    #11537147 -

Quote:

Yes, you could also describe it as doing the right thing, that satisfies ones personal beliefs making one feel like they are living up to personal ethics. Which of course give a feeling of satisfaction on some level. This does not mean others do not benefit from a selfish act. In fact people often do. I can give examples if you like.



And when your actions (or inactions) are a direct detriment to somebody else, is there a qualitative difference there?  Again, which self are you serving?


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Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.

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Re: Acting selflessly, the biggest load of crap since Santa Claus. [Re: Icelander]
    #11537153 -

Altruism is the best egoism :ohwell:

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Re: Acting selflessly, the biggest load of crap since Santa Claus. [Re: Ahimsa]
    #11537160 -

Ahimsa said:
Altruism is the best egoism :ohwell:



Usually this is the case, I'll agree.  Sometimes your own ends can be benefited more by not acting altruistically, though.


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Re: Acting selflessly, the biggest load of crap since Santa Claus. [Re: deCypher]
    #11537163 -

deCypher said:
Please give another ultimate motivation then as an alternative theory.  I personally think that the pursuit of happiness and avoidance of unhappiness is the best underlying explanation of all our actions.



If someone is willing to undergo torture and not give away the information their torturers want, that doesn't sound like pursuing happiness to me.  Of course, you could always say that it makes them happy to know they're doing the right thing, but that's why this assertion is an unfalsifiable cop-out.  It takes the fact that someone willingly does something, and equates whatever their goal is with "feeling good."  But "feeling good" is too vague a criteria, and can be attached ad hoc to anything someone does.  They had a reason for doing something, so they must have "felt good" about it, right?  Give me a break. :rolleyes:


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Re: Acting selflessly, the biggest load of crap since Santa Claus. [Re: deCypher]
    #11537198 -

Short term of long term gain? My experience shows that acting egoistically provides short term gain, but acting altruistically provides long term gain... eventually the egoism works against its own goals in the long term, while altruism gains over time but seems to be loosing in the beginning.

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Re: Acting selflessly, the biggest load of crap since Santa Claus. [Re: Silversoul]
    #11537216 -

I'll agree that it's unfalsifiable but so is any theory that speculates about psychological motivations.  If an individual got absolutely no happiness from his actions, would he do it?  I say no.  Even in the case of torture for withholding information the individual is obviously doing this because they would feel more unhappy with themselves if they had spilled the beans.

Also I think habit comes into play a lot.  How do we explain a soldier who throws himself on a grenade to save his comrades?  This is admittedly difficult to explain with psychological egoism but nonetheless I think we can explain this altruistic behavior occurring because past altruistic behavior benefited the individual... this altruistic behavior was therefore reinforced and so the soldier doesn't even stop to think about his or her actions but instead acts instantaneously out of habit.  If the soldier were truly rational he or she would realize that his sacrifice does not benefit himself and therefore should not be performed (unless of course they believe in an afterlife of eternal happiness, or if their current life were so miserable that non-existence is preferable to it).


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order


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