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Re: scientology horrifies me [Re: daytripper23]
    #7179858 -

I think that you might be confusing psychiatry with psychology.


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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Re: scientology horrifies me [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7179864 -

I sincerely doubt whether those "therapists" involved in that situation were either psychiatrists OR psychologists.  :rolleyes:

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Re: scientology horrifies me [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7179866 -

Yea, I probably was. Point is, it was no broken leg or punctured lung that she turned down treatment for.


--------------------
Beware the Jabberwock, my son!
  The jaws that bite, the claws that catch!
Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun
  The frumious Bandersnatch!

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Re: scientology horrifies me [Re: daytripper23]
    #7179882 -

Nah, it had nothing to do with psychiatry, psychology OR medicine.  From the sound of it, Lisa was afraid of being treated by a psychiatrist, so she requested that the hospital release her into the care of members of her church.  Religion.  :shrug:

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Re: scientology horrifies me [Re: Veritas]
    #7180254 -

From the frying pan into the fire.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: scientology horrifies me [Re: Icelander]
    #7180390 -

Here is an unedited, unbiased chain of events, from wiki

Quote:
The family of Lisa McPherson sued the Church of Scientology and individuals involved for wrongful death on February 19, 1997, while the Church claimed it did nothing wrong toward McPherson. [41]

On Sept 15, 1998, Dr. David Minkoff settled his portion of the wrongful death suit by having his malpractice insurance pay $100,000 to the estate. [42]

On November 13, 1998, the Church was indicted on two felony charges in McPherson's death; abuse or neglect of a disabled adult, a second-degree felony, and unauthorized practice of medicine, a third-degree felony; the first criminal charges ever filed in the United States against the Church of Scientology.[5] These charges were brought against the Church as a corporation, not against any individuals, and the maximum penalty, had the charges been pursued and the Church found guilty, would have been a $15,000 fine plus costs.[14] On December 6, 1999, Florida State Attorney Bernie McCabe presented a response to Scientology's attempt to get the case dismissed.[43]

On Feb 23, 2000, Medical examiner Joan Wood changed the cause of death of Lisa McPherson to an "accident." "Gone from the new report is the original reference to the bed rest and dehydration. Wood still traces the death to a blood clot behind McPherson's knee. But she lists McPherson's psychosis and a minor auto accident as major factors." [1]

On March 8, 2000, a group of more than 200 Scientologists moved to have the criminal case dismissed on the claim that it had "chilled the religious rights of every Scientologist" and that other Scientologists were now being treated with concern, suspicion or ridicule by non-Scientologists. A central point of the motion was that McPherson had undergone the Introspection Rundown, which the brief putting forth the motion called an "entirely religious" practice.[44]

On April 4, 2000, Scientology moved to have the entire case dismissed. "The entire basis for the state's prosecution of this case has now collapsed," begins one of the many Scientology legal briefs arguing the case should be dismissed.[45]

On June 12, 2000, on the advice of Assistant State Attorney Douglas Crow, State Attorney Bernie McCabe dropped the criminal charges against the Church. According to a memo by Crow, medical examiner Joan Wood could not be counted on to confidently testify:

“ Her inability to logically explain her opinions makes it clear that she cannot withstand cross-examination in this case. The actions and testimony of Dr. Wood, a forensic witness essential to the state's case, has so muddled the equities and underlying facts in this case, however that it has undermined what began as a strong legal position. ... our ability to establish these necessary facts beyond a reasonable doubt has clearly been compromised.[5] ”

Later State Attorney Bernie McCabe stated:

“ Number one, the practice-of-medicine charge was never going to fly on its own, it needed to be there with something else. And the abuse case was predicated almost completely on the dehydration, leading to embolism, leading to death. If you can't establish that, there is nothing to support the abuse charge. [46] ”

Scientologist OT 8 Dr. David I. Minkoff had his license suspended on August 3, 2001 for one year and was fined $10,000 for prescribing medicine to McPherson at the request of her FSO caretakers without having ever seen her.[15]

On April 29, 2002, the church accused McPherson attorney Ken Dandar of professional misconduct and perjury and tried to get him removed from the case.[47]

On June 22, 2002, Pinellas-Pasco Circuit Judge Frank Quesada dismissed the count alleging that McPherson was falsely imprisoned on the McPherson's civil suit.

Based on the undisputed facts of this case, plaintiff has not made and cannot make a showing that Lisa McPherson was unlawfully restrained "against her will' by the defendants." "In fact, all of the evidence indicates the opposite. Lisa McPherson refused psychiatric observation or admission at the hospital; she expressly stated her desire to receive the religious care and assistance from her fellow congregants that she and they wanted her to have.[9]

Scientology conducted a survey in the Clearwater area which showed that four out of five residents have a negative opinion of Scientology.[48] They tried to use this as a reason for a change of venue, then withdrew the request.[49]

Scientology sued attorney Ken Dandar for breach of contract, for having added David Miscavige to the wrongful death lawsuit despite a mutual agreement not to add additional defendants. In a 2003 jury trial, Scientology asked for over two million dollars in damages, but received only $4,500 in attorney fees and no punitive damages.[50] [51]

The civil suit was settled out of court on May 28, 2004, under terms undisclosed to the public.[52]

The Church of Scientology now makes members sign a waiver specifically against suing the Church over the Introspection Rundown. [53]

During the civil suit against the Church of Scientology brought by McPherson's family members, an injunction was sought and obtained to keep the Scientology-critical film "The Profit" from being shown. The stated reason was that it might prejudice the jury pool against Scientology. As of 2007, that injunction is still active. [54]

A group of Scientology critics led by Bob Minton named the short-lived Lisa McPherson trust after her.




do you notice how people cling to opinions and half-facts when they really want to hate something.
So much effort done to try and paraphrase and exploit certain aspects of one side of a story.
Diploid, why didnt you include the other parts of that story? or atleast go back and edit your post so it is atleast factually accurate.

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Re: scientology horrifies me [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #7180406 -

It definitely sounds like Lisa was convinced that her faith would save her, despite the extreme physical symptoms she was experiencing.

Were those who "supervised" her during that time negligent? Perhaps. But she was there of her own will, and it was her right to pursue the course of action in which she believed. Did the Church of Scientology murder her? Doesn't sound like it.

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Re: scientology horrifies me [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #7180426 -

I linked the Wiki in my original post so anyone who wants more detail could take a look. Besides, I didn't say she was held against her will; I said the opposite. What part of my post is factually inaccurate?

Be that as it may, you make it seem like her caregivers did nothing wrong. In fact, they sat around and did nothing for 48 hour (!) while she lay unconscious before they finally took her to the hospital where the Scientology-member doctor was. On the way there, they passed four (!) other hospitals. Their own testimony said she was struggling to breathe during the drive. She died as they arrived. Had they gone to the nearest hospital, Lisa might still be alive today.

And while the criminal charges were dismissed, Lisa's family won a civil malpractice suit against the Scientology-member doctor.

Those people were complicit in her death at the very least.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Re: scientology horrifies me [Re: Diploid]
    #7183835 -

Quote:
The bizarre treatment included withholding water for over a week. When she was finally taken to a hospital, she was covered in bruises and bedsores.



where does it state anywhere that water was withheld from her? or better yet, where is that factually backed up, and not someones explanation as to why she was dehydrated.
Diploid, you are usually a very scientific person, so you tell me how long a human can go without drinking anything.

also, the term caregiver is confusing in this situation as there are no such things as Scientology FSO caregivers, or Scientology caregivers for that matter.
The only thing that I see in this entire case that was criminal was a doctor, who was a scientologist, prescribe Lisa medicine without examining her. It isnt a crime that scientology committed, it is a crime that someone who was a scientologist committed.
It was stated on many occasions that Lisa did not want to go to a hospital and be given care by non-scientologists, this is the reason that they went to a hospital farther away, because it had scientologists working there.

what I find odd, is how scientology is held to higher standards by its detractors, while situations like this, and often even more flagrant happen every single day in the psychiatric community, as well as the medical community.
Where is the expose` and the public outcry everytime someone gets pneumonia while in the hospital, or dies due to negligence, or dies due to malpractice and being prescribed the wrong things?
Bed sores dont ever happen in hospitals right?

The only "medical care" that scientology requests that you dont participate in is psychiatry. they will not force you, or restrain you.

the only person that was in anyway complicit in Lisa McPherson's death was Lisa and the doctor that broke the hippocratic oath. Everything else is unfounded speculation.

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Re: scientology horrifies me [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #7184080 -

On a related note, a forum I frequent raised enough money to get a plane to write HAIL XENU in the sky over the opening ceremony of Mission Impossible 3. For those who don't know, Tom Cruise is a leading Scientologist and Xenu is Scientology's version of Satan.

Unfortunately, problems arose and the plane never took off.

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Re: scientology horrifies me [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #7184166 -

where does it state anywhere that water was withheld from her?

In court documents:

Dr. Don Reay, Chief Medical Examiner in Seattle since 1975, opines that the high level of vitreous creatinine indicates that the kidneys could have shut down. Dr. Reay also agreed with Dr. Wood that the vitreous result would support the opinion that this level of dehydration would indicate that Lisa was not receiving water for 5 to 10 days and being unconscious for up to 48 hours. Dr. Reay also opined that the absence of fluids can thicken the blood, which promotes clotting. This is known as an increase in blood viscosity leading to clotting. Not one doctor in this case disagrees with this well established medical science.

http://www.lisamcpherson.org/dandar_01.htm

scientology is held to higher standards by its detractors

You think I'm holding Scientologists to a higher standard by pointing out that it was negligent for the people entrusted to care for her to let her lay in bed UNCONSCIOUS without medical attention for TWO DAYS!, then when they finally took her to a hospital still unconscious and gasping for air to drive past four hospitals before stopping, allowing her to die en-route??

Are you fucking kidding me!!??


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Re: scientology horrifies me [Re: Diploid]
    #7184207 -

if thats true, thats so funny. I would have loved to see that. Too bad it never happened.


--------------------
:bouncysmoke:

I'm ok, really.

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Re: scientology horrifies me [Re: Diploid]
    #7184400 -

jeez, when you really want to believe something, you stick to it like a remora.

Quote:
Scientology hired its own team of experts to oppose Wood’s findings, including the help of two nationally known pathologists; Michael M. Baden (A former chief medical examiner in New York City that has played roles in some of the country's most celebrated death cases including the autopsy of Rev. Martin Luther King Jr., actor John Belushi and former baseball manager Billy Martin; the re-autopsy civil rights leader Medgar Evers and led the 1979 congressional re-examination of evidence in the assassination of President Kennedy.) and Drs. Cyril H. Wecht (A lawyer and the county coroner in Pittsburgh, who worked on the 1979 Kennedy assassination commission and is a frequent commentator on major death cases.). Drs. Michael M. Baden and Cyril H. Wecht concluded that McPherson, 36, died suddenly and unpredictably of a blood clot in her left lung that originated from a knee bruise she suffered in a minor auto accident 17 days earlier. [28]





so two very prominent coroners concluded this.

but here are some interesting facts.

Quote:
This scientific evidence was then sent to Joan Wood for review. [29] The Scientific evidence sent to Woods included:

Literature that shows that dehydration does not cause blood clots. [1]
Research on a substance known as ketone, which people produce when they are dehydrated, starving or even fasting, tests of McPherson's bodily fluids showed no ketone. [1]
Findings from a body measurement expert hired by the church. The expert compared autopsy photos of McPherson with those taken in happier times, just before she became psychotic and entered the Fort Harrison. The expert concluded there was "no appreciable weight loss," which counters the prosecution's view that McPherson lost 20 to 40 pounds while in Scientology's care. [1]
A report by a Morton Plant Hospital doctor who saw McPherson just before she entered Scientology's Fort Harrison Hotel, McPherson already was thin with protruding cheek bones. [30]
A report by Robert D. Davis, the pathologist who conducted the autopsy for Wood's office, concluded McPherson's body was of average nutritional status. [30]
Medical literature and sworn testimony that it says proves the eye fluid samples were improperly handled by Wood's office, incompetently tested at an independent lab and ultimately contaminated. [30]





See, the problem I have with this entire issue is that, even after posting something that I hope you have read, you still JUMP to the conclusion that the findings somehow indict the entire church or even some of its FSO members.
The report you presented doesnt say that Scientologist withheld water from her, it says that she was dehydrated. Nor did it say anywhere that Scientologists sat there watching her as she lay unconscious.
You have just jumped to those conclusions on your own, or based from someone elses speculations.
Also, since he was not (to my knowledge) a first hand coroner in the case, that he received the data from the botched handling of the vitreous fluids.... yet even if it wasnt, it doesnt account for the lack of Ketone in her blood.

It even came out during and after the trial that the coroner Wood completely botched the entire autopsy. She changed her report three times and eventually, her and another coroner involved were fired for their incompetence.

here is something which raises the question if Wood had some agenda to damage the church of Scientology through filing a false autopsy report.

Quote:
She also took the unusual step of elaborating for reporters, publicly stating that lab results on McPherson's eye fluid showed she died slowly.

Wood said she wanted to correct church lawyers, who were saying McPherson's death was sudden and unpredictable. She concluded McPherson went several days without fluids, was comatose and suffered roach bites while in Scientology's care.

The church was outraged, calling her a liar.

Then, late last year, Wood agreed to review her controversial opinions at the request of the church, which provided her with mounds of new information.

As part of the review, McPherson's eye fluid was retested two more times.

The review is mandated in Wood's policy manual, which says the medical examiner will "readdress key issues" in a case if "credible new evidence is presented, regardless of its source."

The result: a revised report and the finding that McPherson's death was accidental.





But, even in the end, the church has been absolved of any wrongdoing.... so I doubt that a court case that spent months and millions of dollars finding evidence for claims and counter claims is going to overlook something that you, diploid, come up with.

Doesnt it sound rather odd for a coroner to send off vitreous fluid tests to 5 other coroners, and not send anythign else.... like a blood test?

If you ask me, then entire thing was sensationalized by the media, and feuled by peoples hatred of Scientology, and was wrongfully accused due to a coroners incompetence plus her obvious dislike of scientology.

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Re: scientology horrifies me [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #7184479 -

Look man, we can debate this back and forth for as long as the trial lasted. The bottom line for me is that this poor woman was unconscious for two days, then died gasping for air as Scientologists drove her past four hospital emergency rooms.

If you don't think that's fucked up, then I don't know what else to tell ya.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Re: scientology horrifies me [Re: Diploid]
    #7184558 -

Quote:
December 5 1995

Three Scientologists, including Flag Medical Liaison Officer Janis Johnson-Fitzgerald, took Lisa to New Port Richey (25 miles and 4 other hospitals away) to be treated by Scientologist physician David Minkoff (who is at least an OTVII), Detective Andrews said. ``Lisa at first didn't want to see a doctor but we talked her into seeing a doctor,'' Brian Anderson said. ``She knew Dr. Minkoff and he is an expert in infectious diseases so that's why she was taken there.''

Elliott Abelson stated that Lisa asked to be taken to a Scientology doctor and that she walked part way to the van.
DEC. 5
9:30 p.m.

McPherson arrives at Columbia New Port Richey Hospital, which is 24 miles from the Fort Harrison Hotel - about a 35 minute drive. She is in the back seat of a Scientology van, accompanied by two people, including Janis Johnson, Scientology's medical liaison officer. Johnson is a medical doctor but is not licensed to practice in Florida. McPherson has no pulse and is not breathing. Emergency room personnel begin CPR.




Now she walks part way to the van to go to the hospital. If she was walking, we can assume that she was conscious and maybe made a statement like "I want to see Dr. Minkhoff". He worked at a hospital 25 miles away.

So are you for forcing treatment to people? sure, maybe it is irrational for someone to refuse help from 4 other closer hospitals, but who is to force someone to get treatment they dont wish to have?
You paint the picture like the scientologists are sneaking her into a van out the back of FH, and taking pictures of the other hospitals as they pass by.
The people inside the car said that she had stopped breathing just as they pulled up to the hospital, nor does it show anywhere that she was unconcious the entire way to the hospital.

so, no, I dont think it is fucked up that a group of scientologists who were driving someone to the hospital respected a patients personal choice for care.

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Re: scientology horrifies me [Re: Diploid]
    #7184611 -

Many Christians are guilty of similar acts of stupidity. It goes with the territory of ALL dogmatic thought - when dogma enters the brain all intellectual activity covered by the dogma ceases (RAW, paraphrased). What is left is a hobbled mind. A man that ceases to apply reason to the critical examination of his beliefs, is like a man who binds his legs and arms and attempts to climb the next ridge for a better view.


--------------------
fuck, Fuck, FUCK and DOUBLE FUCK!!!

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Re: scientology horrifies me [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #7184644 -

If she was walking, we can assume that she was conscious and maybe made a statement like "I want to see Dr. Minkhoff".

What I read elsewhere (I'd have to dig it up again and I'm not going to) was that the people taking care of her stated she was "unconscious and gasping for air" in the car on the way to the hospital. Somewhere else I read a doctor state that he estimated she'd been unconscious for two days when she arrived at the hospital.

If she was awake enough to refuse treatment, then I take everything back of course.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Re: scientology horrifies me [Re: Diploid]
    #7184732 -

if it helps, the last quote I gave was from an anti-scientology website, or atleast a website that was blaming Scientology for Lisa's death.

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Re: scientology horrifies me [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #7184876 -

For me the bottom line here is that she made choices for her own treatment. She's responsible for that. We may never know if her treatment was faulty but we do know what she choose to do. Something just as unfortunate could have happened to her in the hospital and nobody here would have said squat.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: scientology horrifies me [Re: Icelander]
    #7184945 -

For me the bottom line here is that she made choices for her own treatment.

I agree with the caveat that if the Scientologists represented themselves as medical professionals, then her decision was skewed by a lie. This is what the church was indicted of (practicing medicine without a license) and they appear to have a less-than-honest history. They did win the case, but that doesn't necessarily mean anything.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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