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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Canoodlia's Healthcare system
    #7103704 -

Who's Really 'Sicko'
In Canada, dogs can get a hip replacement in under a week. Humans can wait two to three years.

BY DAVID GRATZER
Thursday, June 28, 2007 12:01 a.m. EDT

TORONTO--"I haven't seen 'Sicko,' " says Avril Allen about the new Michael Moore documentary, which advocates socialized medicine for the United States. The film, which has been widely viewed on the Internet, and which will officially open in the U.S. and Canada on Friday, has been getting rave reviews. But Ms. Allen, a lawyer, has no plans to watch it. She's just too busy preparing to file suit against Ontario's provincial government about its health-care system next month.

Her client, Lindsay McCreith, would have had to wait for four months just to get an MRI, and then months more to see a neurologist for his malignant brain tumor. Instead, frustrated and ill, the retired auto-body shop owner traveled to Buffalo, N.Y., for a lifesaving surgery. Now he's suing for the right to opt out of Canada's government-run health care, which he considers dangerous.

Ms. Allen figures the lawsuit has a fighting chance: In 2005, the Supreme Court of Canada ruled that "access to wait lists is not access to health care," striking down key Quebec laws that prohibited private medicine and private health insurance.

In the U.S., 83 House Democrats voted for a bill in 1993 calling for single-payer health care. That idea collapsed with HillaryCare and since then has existed on the fringes of the debate--winning praise from academics and pressure groups, but remaining largely out of the political discussion. Mr. Moore's documentary intends to change that, exposing millions to his argument that American health care is sick and socialized medicine is the cure.

It's not simply that Mr. Moore is wrong. His grand tour of public health care systems misses the big story: While he prescribes socialism, market-oriented reforms are percolating in cities from Stockholm to Saskatoon.

Mr. Moore goes to London, Ontario, where he notes that not a single patient has waited in the hospital emergency room more than 45 minutes. "It's a fabulous system," a woman explains. In Britain, he tours a hospital where patients marvel at their free care. A patient's husband explains: "It's not America." Humorously, Mr. Moore finds a cashier dispensing money to patients (for transportation). In France, a doctor explains the success of the health-care system with the old Marxist axiom: "You pay according to your means, and you receive according to your needs."

It's compelling material--I know because, born and raised in Canada, I used to believe in government-run health care. Then I was mugged by reality.

Consider, for instance, Mr. Moore's claim that ERs don't overcrowd in Canada. A Canadian government study recently found that only about half of patients are treated in a timely manner, as defined by local medical and hospital associations. "The research merely confirms anecdotal reports of interminable waits," reported a national newspaper. While people in rural areas seem to fare better, Toronto patients receive care in four hours on average; one in 10 patients waits more than a dozen hours.
This problem hit close to home last year: A relative, living in Winnipeg, nearly died of a strangulated bowel while lying on a stretcher for five hours, writhing in pain. To get the needed ultrasound, he was sent by ambulance to another hospital.

In Britain, the Department of Health recently acknowledged that one in eight patients wait more than a year for surgery. Around the time Mr. Moore was putting the finishing touches on his documentary, a hospital in Sutton Coldfield announced its new money-saving linen policy: Housekeeping will no longer change the bed sheets between patients, just turn them over. France's system failed so spectacularly in the summer heat of 2003 that 13,000 people died, largely of dehydration. Hospitals stopped answering the phones and ambulance attendants told people to fend for themselves.

With such problems, it's not surprising that people are looking for alternatives. Private clinics--some operating in a "gray zone" of the law--are now opening in Canada at a rate of about one per week.





Canadian doctors, once quiet on the issue of private health care, elected Brian Day as president of their national association. Dr. Day is a leading critic of Canadian medicare; he opened a private surgery hospital and then challenged the government to shut it down. "This is a country," Dr. Day said by way of explanation, "in which dogs can get a hip replacement in under a week and in which humans can wait two to three years."
Market reforms are catching on in Britain, too. For six decades, its socialist Labour Party scoffed at the very idea of private medicine, dismissing it as "Americanization." Today Labour favors privatization, promising to triple the number of private-sector surgical procedures provided within two years. The Labour government aspires to give patients a choice of four providers for surgeries, at least one of them private, and recently considered the contracting out of some primary-care services--perhaps even to American companies.

Other European countries follow this same path. In Sweden, after the latest privatizations, the government will contract out some 80% of Stockholm's primary care and 40% of total health services, including Stockholm's largest hospital. Beginning before the election of the new conservative chancellor, Germany enhanced insurance competition and turned state enterprises over to the private sector (including the majority of public hospitals). Even in Slovakia, a former Marxist country, privatizations are actively debated.

Under the weight of demographic shifts and strained by the limits of command-and-control economics, government-run health systems have turned out to be less than utopian. The stories are the same: dirty hospitals, poor standards and difficulty accessing modern drugs and tests.

Admittedly, the recent market reforms are gradual and controversial. But facts are facts, the reforms are real, and they represent a major trend in health care. What does Mr. Moore's documentary say about that? Nothing.

Dr. Gratzer, a practicing physician licensed in Canada and the U.S. and a senior fellow at the Manhattan Institute, is the author of "The Cure: How Capitalism Can Save American Health Care" (Encounter, 2006).


http://www.opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=110010266

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Re: Canoodlia's Healthcare system [Re: Luddite]
    #7103780 -

Luddite said:
Allen, a lawyer, has no plans to watch it. She's just too busy taking out her tampon and over menstruating.







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Everything I have ever said is total bogus bs I am full of crud therefore everything I say should never be taken literal.

And I am mentally unstable.

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Re: Canoodlia's Healthcare system [Re: budmanman]
    #7103794 -

We don't fake quotes here. And that was a particularly lame fake quote, you might consider abandoning that and leaving it to people with wit in OTD. If there are any.


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Re: Canoodlia's Healthcare system [Re: Luddite]
    #7103819 -

If you don't want free health care fine, don't fuck it up for the rest of us though.


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Make my Funk the P Funk, I wants to get Funked up

LAGM2024

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Re: Canoodlia's Healthcare system [Re: Luddite]
    #7103836 -


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Re: Canoodlia's Healthcare system [Re: Luddite]
    #7103863 -

That's the French not the Canadians.


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Make my Funk the P Funk, I wants to get Funked up

LAGM2024

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Re: Canoodlia's Healthcare system [Re: zappaisgod]
    #7103906 -

zappaisgod said:
We don't fake quotes here. And that was a particularly lame fake quote, you might consider abandoning that and leaving it to people with wit in OTD. If there are any.



YOU are so rite man. She is far to busy to even ever spare to the 2 hours to watch a movie.


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Everything I have ever said is total bogus bs I am full of crud therefore everything I say should never be taken literal.

And I am mentally unstable.

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Re: Canoodlia's Healthcare system [Re: budmanman]
    #7104132 -

Some people's lives don't revolve around sensationalized enertainment. Seems as though she is actively involved in a real life situation regarding the topic. Way to latch on to the most irrelevant aspect of the article. :thumbup:


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:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: Canoodlia's Healthcare system [Re: fireworks_god]
    #7104553 -

I refuse to even bother reading the whole article due to what he said in his other thread that a mod FORCED him to edit.

This guy is here to just stir things up and it worked.


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Everything I have ever said is total bogus bs I am full of crud therefore everything I say should never be taken literal.

And I am mentally unstable.

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Re: Canoodlia's Healthcare system [Re: budmanman]
    #7105139 -

You seem to be the only one stirred up over the article. :wink:

Anyhow, very interesting read. Thank you for posting it. Michael Moore is notorious for only showing a very narrow view of any given topic.


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m00nshine is currently vacationing in Maui. Rumor has it he got rolled by drunken natives and is currently prostituting himself in order to pay for airfare back to the mainland but he's having trouble juggling a hairon addiction. He won't be back for a long while.

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Re: Canoodlia's Healthcare system [Re: Gastronomicus]
    #7106395 -

Gastronomicus said:
If you don't want free health care fine, don't fuck it up for the rest of us though.



If YOU want free health care fine, dont fuck shit up for the rest of us though.

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Re: Canoodlia's Healthcare system [Re: budmanman]
    #7106406 -

budmanman said:
I refuse to even bother reading the whole article due to what he said in his other thread that a mod FORCED him to edit.

This guy is here to just stir things up and it worked.



Then why are you even posting in this thread? Thank you for wasting our time.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: Canoodlia's Healthcare system [Re: fireworks_god]
    #7106414 -

No you don't even understand you totaly missed what he said. The mod's made him edit it and my response to him and all others were edited and you would not even belive what he said if you want I can PM you it.


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Everything I have ever said is total bogus bs I am full of crud therefore everything I say should never be taken literal.

And I am mentally unstable.

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Re: Canoodlia's Healthcare system [Re: budmanman]
    #7106451 -

I am referring, of course, to how you selected to respond to the most irrelevant aspect of the article, in the most irrelevant manner possible in regards to the actual topic, coupled with your assertion that you won't even read the article.

Last I was aware, this was a topic for the points and subject raised in the actual article, not what some other poster said in some other thread. With that realization, this conversation here is equally inappropriate. :smirk:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: Canoodlia's Healthcare system [Re: Gastronomicus]
    #7106817 -

Gastronomicus said:
If you don't want free health care fine, don't fuck it up for the rest of us though.



There is no free health care. Ever. Somebody always pays. In this case you want me to pay for yours. I'd rather not. Call me shellfish.


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Re: Canoodlia's Healthcare system [Re: Luddite]
    #7117732 -

The debate about nationalizing America's Health Care system has always relied heavily on comparing how other countries have faired with creating a primarily socialized health care system.


Canada is an example where nationalizing the system may have not been the "best" decision. Lets go over some of the issues at hand.

1. Overflow of demand
Once Health care became "free" for the people, the number of doctor appointments and visits and even E.R. consultations have skyrocketed in Canada. Because of this, many medical centers and hospitals have been incredibly backed up with services. It takes on average, about a month for a potential cancer patient in Canada to recieve biopsy results. It takes on average, 6-7 months for a canadian senior citizen to be scheduled for a major orthopedic surgical procedure (including joint replacements, transplants, and grafts).

This leads to an even bigger problem. Outpatients who refuse to undergo such long waiting periods for treatment are provided the option of emergency medicine...which most will abuse.

When in a country like America, already faces problems with overflowing patient numbers in E.R.'s, the situation is abundantly worse in Canada, when many non-emergency case patients utilize emergency services, leaving those with REAL emergencies, stranded in waiting rooms. (I've personally witnessed people bleeding to death while waiting for an open spot in an E.R.)

2. Decreased funding for specialized health care
What many American Liberals don't realize about Canada's system, is that the subsidities that the Canadian government provides, does not span far beyond primary care. The majority of specialized treatments in Canada are not for the most part, funded by the government. Alot more of these lesser-used but still crucial treatments are charged under the discretion of the physician or health care provider.

This also doesn't even account for the decreased amount of specialized physicians working IN Canada. Why? Because believe it or not, physicians also care about their salaries. And when there lacks a monetary incentive in order to seek training for specialties, most physicians will settle with either...1, remaining a primary care physician, or 2. moving to another country where specializations equate to an increased pay for service.

3. Decreased pay to health care providers
I know this seems like a somewhat arbitrary topic at first, but there's alot more to this than just faultiness of human greed.

People, will always go where the money is. The reason why fields like bioengineering and medical research are amongst the most competitive is because there is money to be made. And the best talents in these fields will almost always be attracted by the most lucrative oppurtunities.

And pardon me if this sounds like a hint of elitism, but there is no question or doubt that the U.S. leads the world in groundbreaking medical breakthroughs. There is no other country which parallels the volume of influx of international patients than the U.S..

The U.S. system consistently attracts the grand majority of great scientific minds BECAUSE the money is there. Period. It is the same reason why many high-caliber Canadian physicians have crossed the border to practice in America. It's the same reason why the majority of pharmaceutical companies base their research labs and academic health care centers in America. And it's the BIGGEST reason why in general, you can't get a better treatment for advanced stages of Cancer...*ahem* Sloan Kettering Memorial Hospital continues to lead the world in basically all forms of treatment for advanced stage IIIC or worse. Only recently did they become the first hospital EVER to perform debulking procedures for cervical cancer patients while preserving the patient's reproductive function.

If you haven't noticed, there is a worsening shortage of physicians-to-patients ratio in Canada. And this doesn't take into account the even MORE minute ratio of specialists per patient.




With all this being said, it should be noted that there are MANY countries which have thrived and benefitted greatly from having a nationalized Health Care system. Many European countries can be sited as such.


But the problem is not whether America should or shouldn't nationalize their health care system. The probem is IF a nationalized health care system is RIGHT for a system such as the U.S.'s.


If you've really taken a thorough look at America's Health Care system, you'd realize just how stratefied it is, and how it's evolved from its past. In the U.S., your treatment and survival rate for various diseases can depend greatly simply on where you seek treatment. And sadly, in this capitalistic society, your options are heavily dictated by what you can afford. Ranging from standardized treatment in HMO-affiliated medical centers...to some of the best minds the world has to offer, residing in privately owned institutionalized hospitals.

In this country, the sad fact is that the best doctors, the most qualified surgeons, and the most ground breaking pharmaceuticals, are for the most part, employed and ran by private companies rather than government-provided medical centers.

And by nationalizing a system such as the U.S., you're basically dissolving the institutions most directly responsible for advancing medicine on a global scale.




One of my preceptors said it best. This was a physician whose spent over 45 years working in various countries and under numerous hospitals.

"The scope of the situation in this country is pretty simple. Everyone wants Filet Mignon, when most people can only afford french fries. By nationalizing the system, you're giving everyone french fries."


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"Shmokin' weed, Shmokin' wizz, doin' coke, drinkin' beers.  Drinkin' beers beers beers, rollin' fatties, smokin' blunts.  Who smokes tha blunts?  We smoke the blunts" - Jay and Silent Bob strike Back

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Re: Canoodlia's Healthcare system [Re: Luddite]
    #7133786 -

One thing I want to mention is that the private health care in Canada varies from province to province.

Here in Alberta we have I think the lowest waiting times in Canada and the doctors and nurses are highest paid if you exclude the territories. But in Alberta we do pay premiums every month for health care...

In most places it is the province that pays the majority of the health related costs... this means that richer provinces pour more money into the system. The federal govenrment pays only a fraction of the total cost of health care.

I agree that there are unreasonable wait times with the public system, especially if you are a baby boomer since our population is weighted towards that group. These people are all going to go through similar things as they age, and because there are so many of them this will be a huge stress on the system.

I think that once our population stabalizes and the baby boomers die off the system will be a lot better.

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Re: Canoodlia's Healthcare system [Re: zappaisgod]
    #7141077 -

zappaisgod said:
There is no free health care. Ever. Somebody always pays. In this case you want me to pay for yours. I'd rather not. Call me shellfish.



So would you argue against health insurance altogether? It works the same way - everyone pays into a pool to cover the unlucky. The main difference is that private insurance makes an effort not to cover you if at all possible, as Michael Moore showed many examples of in "Sicko".


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I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: Canoodlia's Healthcare system [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #7141220 -

Quote:
It works the same way - everyone pays into a pool to cover the unlucky. The main difference is that private insurance...



The main difference is that private insurance is optional, not compulsory.




Phred


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Re: Canoodlia's Healthcare system [Re: Phred]
    #7141474 -

Over and over again I see people blathering about how the U.S. should have universal care because it would be "free". I have to explain to them that when the government forcefully takes a bunch of your money to pay for it...then it's not free.

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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order


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