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Re: Canada's flat tax system [Re: z@z.com]
    #4837139 -

Your right, without being able to provide the link to who wrote the article my percentages mean nothing.
I don't know what your status is to even guess at what your poverty level would be.
If your single and bringing in 35 Gs a year then your income is 4 times the poverty level your government has set of $9,000.
If your supporting a family of four, your still 15 Gs above the poverty line, according to the census.

I guess all Americans have it good!
Must be the good Government you have, not that ours is any better... just different, and just as shitty

Have nice day :smile:

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Re: Canada's flat tax system [Re: Shdwstr]
    #4837351 -

So, you're statistics that you created out of the blue are more legitimate than government census statistics? You have got to be smarter than to think that.

Why do you get to come up with the criteria for what is impoverished or not? Are you a professional demographer or anything else like that?

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Re: Canada's flat tax system [Re: Shdwstr]
    #4837486 -

This has nothing to do with being taken in by government reports, just common sense. As the income level to determine 'poverty' is arbitrary, if you set the poverty levels high enough, 99% of the nation can be living in 'poverty.' Are the cash values of benefits of government programs taken into account when determining income level? Poverty figures are DESIGNED to benefit the agenda of whoever is deciding what is 'poverty.' For the administrators of various government 'relief' programs, it is in their best interests to have numbers as high as possible (and still maintain some semblance of reality) to increase funding and job security. For you, it is to 'prove' your assertion in opposition to common sense and the facts of the average American's existence.

Most 'poor' people in the metropolitan areas in the U.S. today have material possessions which where not even available to the wealthy in prior times. We've got the fattest and some of the wealthiest 'poor' people in the world, people with indoor plumbing, central heating and air, automobiles, cell phones, cable television and internet access. You cannot (if looking at the subject honestly) ignore income relative to the cost of living where one resides. Twenty grand per year near Newport Beach, CA means you'll share a crowded apartment and eat Top Ramen (and you're probably a surfer who smokes a lot of weed), Twenty grand per year in a small town in the mid-west will let you live decently, you won't miss any meals, you'll have access to cable TV, a phone, a car, indoor plumbing and probably be overweight.


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Money doesn't grow on trees, but deficits do grow under Bushes.

You can accept, reject, or examine and test any new idea that comes to you. The wise man chooses the third way.
- Tom Willhite

Disclaimer: I reserve the right to change my opinions should I become aware of additional facts, the falsification of information or different perspectives. Articles written by others which I post may not necessarily reflect my opinions in part or in whole, my opinions may be in direct opposition, the topic may be one on which I have yet to formulate an opinion or have doubts about, an article may be posted solely with the intent to stimulate discussion or contemplation.

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Re: Canada's flat tax system [Re: Prosgeopax]
    #4837493 -

I know I could live comfortably on $20,000 a year where I am located.

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Re: Canada's flat tax system [Re: Prosgeopax]
    #4837880 -

Excellent post, considering your last one! I'm impressed. And your right. The perception of poverty IS directly related to the area you live in. I agree 100%.
The percentages I referred to were one persons opinion who had picked apart the governments assessments. His "opinion" is just as arbitrary as my own, which would be based on my own experiences. I found that most people live beyond their means. Twenty grand a year wouldn't cover my mortgage, never mind food, utilities, car payments and entertainment. And yes... I am living beyond my own means as well :smile:
What do I personally consider poverty?
Living without being able to cover the necessities of life, accommodation, utilities, food and a small minimum of some form of entertainment, whether that may be a TV set, or a six pack of beer once a month. We all need some enjoyment in life as well as having our basic needs met.
I doubt any member here would be considered "living in poverty" as I would consider the basis of this entire site and access to it through the Internet as an indulgence (certainly not a necessity)

Right now, I have to go make my car payment, and pick up a six pak :smile:

Shdwstr

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Re: Canada's flat tax system [Re: Shdwstr]
    #4837912 -

Shdwstr said:
What do I personally consider poverty?
Living without being able to cover the necessities of life, accommodation, utilities, food and a small minimum of some form of entertainment, whether that may be a TV set, or a six pack of beer once a month. We all need some enjoyment in life as well as having our basic needs met.


Then you may be interested in the following statistics. Of the bottom 10 percent of US households, the following percentage of them had these luxuries:

  • color televisions, 91%
  • microwave ovens, 74%;
  • VCRs, 55%;
  • clothes dryers, 47%;
  • stereos, 42%;
  • dishwashers, 23%;
  • computers, 21%;
  • garbage disposers, 19%


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty_line_in_the_United_States

I'd say we're doing pretty damn well.


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Re: Canada's flat tax system [Re: Silversoul]
    #4838125 -

I would agree that most of us are doing rather well. Our countries are very similar in the luxuries we have acquired in our lives. It's our nature to acquire and enjoy them. But having those things does not necessarily mean those people know where their next meal is coming from, or how they are going to meet their next rent or mortgage payment.

Most of us live month to month financially. If something major in our lives screws up, it's quite easy for someones life to change dramatically, overnight.
In the U.S., you have lower taxes and less services. In Canada our taxes are ridiculous but we do have better government run programs.
It's difficult for Americans to sympathize with us when we bitch about government service cuts because it's the norm for Americans to get less services from your government. It's also just as difficult for Canadians to sympathize with Americans over a slight increases in your taxes, because we pay twice what you do, and many of our taxes are hidden in the necessities like food, gas, power, etc.
Is one system better... not really... just different.
For the most part, I think the people of both countries are in pretty good shape...
But I also believe BOTH our Governments are Fucked Up!

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Re: Canada's flat tax system [Re: Shdwstr]
    #4838225 -

Shdwstr said:
It's difficult for Americans to sympathize with us when we bitch about government service cuts because it's the norm for Americans to get less services from your government. It's also just as difficult for Canadians to sympathize with Americans over a slight increases in your taxes, because we pay twice what you do, and many of our taxes are hidden in the necessities like food, gas, power, etc.


I think summarizes the situation quite nicely.


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Re: Canada's flat tax system [Re: Phred]
    #4842406 -

Phred said:
Ms McQuaig's assertion that Canadians at all income levels pay between 30 and 35% of their incomes in tax is incorrect on two levels -- the variance is wider than that and the rate is MUCH higher than that.

She gives no references to support her assertion, and it is demonstrably incorrect. Google "tax freedom day" "Canada" to investigate the true average rate.

Phred


You're recommending people visit a page that is obviously propaganda for a certain point of view to check the facts? Come on Phred, you're better than that. I know you

Here, a non-political page that outlines canadian income tax rates.
http://www.taxtips.ca/tax_rates.htm


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"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us

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Re: Canada's flat tax system [Re: Phluck]
    #4842534 -

Sorry, Phluck, but the whole thrust of McQuaig's article is that more or less every Canadian pays more or less the same amount in taxes -- all taxes -- and that this amount is roughly a third of their income. Since it is self-evident there is a substantive amount of variation in income tax, she perforce must include other taxes to try to prove her point -- property tax, provincial sales tax, federal sales tax, taxes on cigarettes, alcohol, gasoline, mandatory contributions to "free" health care, etc. in an attempt to show that Canadians in lower income tax brackets pay a proportionately higher amount in all these other taxes than do those in higher income tax brackets.

In other words, she is doing exactly the same calculations those who compile the "tax freedom day" information do, but she is doing it sloppily and inaccurately. The truth is there are almost no Canadians drawing any kind of a wage significantly higher than minimum wage who pay less than fifty per cent of their income in taxes of various kinds.

As for your charge of "propaganda", that is hilarious. The figures used by the "tax freedom day" folks aren't pulled out of thin air, they are drawn from Canadian government sources -- census data, Revenue Canada, Statistics Canada, etc. If you had been to their website you'd know this -- they are scrupulous about providing backup for their figures.

I can confirm those figures from personal experience. The last full year I worked in Canada I had more than half my income seized by the government before it ever hit my bank account. Of the roughly 47.5% remaining, I lost a further 15% every time I bought anything from a burger at Harvey's to a brake job for my Honda at Canadian tire to a concert ticket to the National Arts Center to a box of diskettes for my computer to a roll of toilet paper and a new light bulb for my bathroom. I then paid another $3,000 a year in property taxes for my modest house. And don't even talk about the percentage of tax paid on every liter of gas I put in my car.

McQuaig is an economic illiterate. I'd note she's also a Lefty, but that's a redundant charge when speaking of a member of the Canadian press.




Phred


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