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InvisibleBeery
newbie

Registered: 07/31/01
Posts: 49
Loc: Massachusetts, USA
Re: Income Tax checks!! [Re: Innvertigo]
    #369263 - 08/09/01 09:48 AM (22 years, 6 months ago)

Oh, and for a person who 'works his ass off', you sure spend an inordinate amount of time on the internet, spouting your reactionary agenda. Anyone who has viewed your prolific posts would think that you were the slacker.

Alternatively, perhaps it's no wonder you work your ass off - you probably have to in order to make up for the time you spend proselytizing on this website.

Either way, you're hardly a poster boy for a hardworking, committed employee. Most hardworking folks earning less than $20,000 per year have no time to spend browsing the net or philosophizing.

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Edited by Beery on 08/09/01 10:51 AM.



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InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Male

Registered: 02/08/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
Re: Income Tax checks!! [Re: Beery]
    #369264 - 08/09/01 09:49 AM (22 years, 6 months ago)

****To deny that there are many more hardworking people in that wage bracket than there are slackers ****

to deny that there aren't more slackers in this bracket than others is just plain blind illogic

****likely the one where most workers in this country fall into****

actually the most workers are above this bracket but there are a lot in the 15%. Would you consider and auto line worker and average american worker?

****I look forward to the day when the hardworking poor do indeed realise their predicament and put down their tools****

ha ha..that'll solve their plight....there are always people willing to do someone's job..noone is unreplacable

***As one who has worked 16 hours a day, working hard both physically and mentally, and fully committed to an organization that paid me $3.00 per hour, I can honestly say that your attitude really makes me sick.****

ha ha ..$3.00 an hour? When was this? maybe you should get another job. please tell me this was in the 60's or 70's (cost of living was less) because i too worked a lot of hours at 3.35 an hour. Hell i didn't have a well paying job untill the 90's and i'm 30 now. As far as my attitude is concerned your's sadens me...someday you'll succeed.

Relax, Relax, Relax.....it's just a little pin prick * there'll be no more AARRGGHHH!!!! but you may feel a little sick.....


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

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InvisibleBeery
newbie

Registered: 07/31/01
Posts: 49
Loc: Massachusetts, USA
Re: Income Tax checks!! [Re: Innvertigo]
    #369265 - 08/09/01 09:59 AM (22 years, 6 months ago)

"ha ha ..$3.00 an hour? When was this? maybe you should get another job. please tell me this was in the 60's or 70's (cost of living was less) because i too worked a lot of hours at 3.35 an hour."

This was 1989. The cost of living hasn't gone up that much since then.

"Hell i didn't have a well paying job untill the 90's and i'm 30 now. As far as my attitude is concerned your's sadens me...someday you'll succeed."

I was successful. I was also successful in my next job where I worked for 5 years and ended up managing a small picture framing store. By the time I left I was raking in a 'huge' $24,000 and I had reached the top of that particular corporate ladder. That was in 1995 (not 1965). Not every job has prospects beyond that, however hard you work.

You're living in a dream world where merit and hard work are compensated equitably. The problem is, it's just a dream. The truth is, hard work is not compensated fairly based on the worth of the thing being produced.

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InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Male

Registered: 02/08/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
Re: Income Tax checks!! [Re: Beery]
    #369267 - 08/09/01 10:01 AM (22 years, 6 months ago)

****Oh, and for a person who 'works his ass off', you sure spend an inordinate amount of time on the internet, spouting your reactionary agenda. Anyone who has viewed your prolific posts would think that you were the slacker****

but yet you have time to respond to everyone of my posts...hmmmm makes ya wonder


Personally i don't feel like exchanging personal attacks with you because it's counter productive...hell rail Gun and I have kept it pretty clean an we don't agree on much. Why are you so angry in every post?

****Either way, you're hardly a poster boy for a hardworking, committed employee. Most hardworking folks earning less than $20,000 per year have no time to spend browsing the net or philosophizing. *****

well i make quite a lot more than 20K..but as for my hard work i come in at 5:00am (volentarily - work starts at 8:00-9:00 and ends at 5:00) )and work to 6:00pm and get paid salary...Oh and i'm the HR Manager...so let's see i come in 3-4 hours early and work one hour later and spend about an hour posting messages...hmmm that comes to 3-4 hours overtime...i fail to see the slacking...oh and my work is almost always done at the end of the day.

Relax, Relax, Relax.....it's just a little pin prick * there'll be no more AARRGGHHH!!!! but you may feel a little sick.....


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

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InvisibleBeery
newbie

Registered: 07/31/01
Posts: 49
Loc: Massachusetts, USA
Re: Income Tax checks!! [Re: Innvertigo]
    #369275 - 08/09/01 10:15 AM (22 years, 6 months ago)

"but yet you have time to respond to everyone of my posts...hmmmm makes ya wonder"

I don't claim to be 'working my ass off', so I don't need to defend myself. You, on the other hand, do (although I don't see much in the way of a defence in your comments above).

"Personally i don't feel like exchanging personal attacks with you because it's counter productive..."

I'm not 'attacking you'. Boy you are touchy about this. I'm using what I know about you to prove my point. Don't be so defensive.

"hell rail Gun and I have kept it pretty clean an we don't agree on much. Why are you so angry in every post?"

Where have I not been 'clean'? How do you figure I'm 'angry'? I'm not angry (I'm more sad than anything else, because your attitude is so common and yet so thoughtless), and everything I've written has been clean and above board. I just wonder why a simple question about how you can be so hardworking when you spend so long on the net has you flinging accusations of 'dirty' fighting (or whatever it is) and 'anger'. Did I touch a nerve?

****Either way, you're hardly a poster boy for a hardworking, committed employee. Most hardworking folks earning less than $20,000 per year have no time to spend browsing the net or philosophizing. *****

"well i make quite a lot more than 20K..but as for my hard work i come in at 5:00am (volentarily - work starts at 8:00-9:00 and ends at 5:00) )and work to 6:00pm and get paid salary...Oh and i'm the HR Manager...so let's see i come in 3-4 hours early and work one hour later and spend about an hour posting messages...hmmm that comes to 3-4 hours overtime...i fail to see the slacking...oh and my work is almost always done at the end of the day."

So what? Lots of people earning far less (including overtime) work just as many hours, and they don't get the benefits of salary. Nor do they get a retirement package, healthcare plan, or paid vacations. People at your level of middle management have basically what amounts to socialized healthcare, retirement, etc. - you get all the benefits of a socialized system through your work, but you deny that same safety net to those whose employers don't offer such socialist perks.

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OfflinePhyl
old hand
Registered: 01/17/00
Posts: 597
Loc: United Kingdom
Last seen: 14 years, 5 months
Re: Income Tax checks!! [Re: Innvertigo]
    #369277 - 08/09/01 10:19 AM (22 years, 6 months ago)

Who said anything about working less?...
Not me. I was asking you a question about your previous response, which you avoided answering.

i said that they aren't the only brackett that are the "working people" I work my ass off to make the money i do
You may work your arse off, but I was attempting to ascertain whether you believe you work harder than those in the 15% bracket, as this was the impression I got from your post.

you know exactly what I mean by underacheivers....
Obviously I don't, or I wouldn't have asked.
To judge someone as an underachiever, you need to understand their aims and motivations. In my experience people in the lower earning brackets are nowhere near as motivated my money as those in the higher earnings brackets. For you to label someone as an underachiever you must be judging them against your own standards, which is in no way a valid comparison.

a large number of those in the 15% percentile want the money but aren't willing to do what it takes to get it. Denying that would be perposterous.
As I live in the UK, I'm not really in a position to comment about how things are in the US, but over here i know many people who are stuck in the lowest earning bracket, who are there because of social reasons alone. You come from a poor area, you remain poor, regardless of how hard you work. It's not a matter of doing what it takes to earn the money, as the oportunities simply are not there.

Is this your only defense?
It wasn't a defence, I have nothing to defend. It was a question, which again you haven't answered.

I meant what i meant and if you can't accept that it's really too bad
Well, that makes everything really fucking clear... I can't accept it because I don't know what it is.


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InvisibleCaptain Jack
i [heart] you

Registered: 01/23/00
Posts: 4,113
Re: Income Tax checks!! [Re: Innvertigo]
    #369348 - 08/09/01 03:16 PM (22 years, 6 months ago)

"Personally i don't feel like exchanging personal attacks with you because it's counter productive..."

What a crock of shit. You exchange personal attacks all the time. Calling people gay and what not. I'd dig up some quotes for you guys.....but unlike you two, this summer I honestly don't have much time to post. Why? Oh wait, it's because of my job. Hmmm. Irony, maybe?

http://www.captainjackmusic.com


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OfflineEllis Dee
Archangel
Male User Gallery

Registered: 06/29/01
Posts: 13,104
Loc: Fire in the sky
Last seen: 4 years, 11 months
Re: Income Tax checks!! [Re: Captain Jack]
    #369689 - 08/10/01 05:35 AM (22 years, 6 months ago)

In reply to:

****What does someones personal aptitude or ability to work in in a highly skilled job have to do with what someone deserves? ****

It's called income.




You have mistaken financial prosperity for what people deserve. Often people do not get what they deserve. There is injustice,and lots of it.

In reply to:

****working poor don't deserve a cent back and that the rich deserve****

noone said they don't deserve a break...but if you pay no taxes (or very little) you should receive no break or very little.




You said "...when it comes to tax breaks i think Bill gates deserves a higher percentage back". Why on earth does the richest man in the world deserve a greater percentage break on his income tax than a working family or anyone else for that matter? Why do you think that the richest man in the world should get a 6.6% tax reduction and someone making $100,000 deserves only a 3% tax rate reduction? And why does the richest man in the world deserve a 6.6 percent break and a family of 5 earning $43,000 deserves no reduction in their tax rate? Who do you think needs the money more?

In reply to:

****I don't believe I've ever heard of 'the famous you're rich you're fucked theoy****

it means you make a lot of money now your greedy, a glutton and piss on the poor therefore you should never get a break on taxes




Why in the world did you even bring this up? Did someone rich urinate on you at one time? I don't get it man.

In reply to:

****I don't speak for the ignorant masses so I'm not going to touch that comment****

if you believe that then you do..do you?




That makes no sense at all. Will you please explain your reasoning behind that incoherent poorly structured statement?

In reply to:

****Perhaps there is a bit of class envy in it. But the progressive income tax system is a basic principle of our income tax system****

I'm glad you have admitted having class envy. I knew it anyway but many deny it. Therfore now i see where your mind is and your beliefs are tainted with a hateful envy....one of the 7 deadly sins....i prefer a flat tax or cunsumption tax myself....but you're correct we are stuck with what we have.




I have not admitted having 'class envy'. I stated that I don't have class envy. 'Hateful envy' is somthing I don't have in my heart. In your reply to my statement you purposfuly twisted my words to mean what would go good with your argument. You took my words out of context and said they mean the opposite of what I said.

You would favor a consumption tax... A sales (consumption) tax has the effect of taxing people with lower incomes at an income percentage rate much higher than someone with a higher income. It is a regressive tax- taxes those with higher incomes at a lower rate than those with lower incomes. How fare is that to tax those that can least afford it, the poor, at the highest rate? I think that shows your greed and how much you want to keep all the money you work so hard for and let the burdon of financing our civilazation fall on to the poor at a greater percentage rate than the wealthy. 'The lust for money is the root of all evil.'

In reply to:

****and the rich look down on and despise the poor****

i'm sure their are some cases but that's a broad statement....what is rich in your eyes then....and remember there are a lot of rich and succesfull people that started out in the 15% bracket..Bill gates?...but a majority of those in the 15% bracket have never been rich.




You took part of a statement I made and pretended that is what I meant. You know very well that the entirety of my comment went to explain what class envy is. I am also famaliar with fascism and tatoos but I'm not a tatooed fascist, lol.

In reply to:

****It's not my place to say what anyone deserves. I do my best to withhold judgment on what people deserve. But I think they are no more deserving of a break than anyone else. Why can't everyone get a break? ****

then why comment? Are you a moderate? I think they are deserving of more of a break since they but in more money...boken record?




I commented to rebut your statement. I'm not a moderate. I'm a conservative republican with fiscally conservative thinking. My opinion on the tax cut and 'tax rebate' is most similar to the opinion of the republican senator from Ohio, George Voinovich. I was against the tax cut and opposed any new federal spending because I believe it is in the nations interest to have a budget surplus at this time.

****Individuals with lower incomes than those with higher incomes spend a higher proportion of their income on the necessities of life and spend a higher proportion of their income****

In reply to:

This has got to be one of the most rediculus stements i have ever heard..first off the economy isn't stimulated merely on neccesities rather anything that is sold. I guarentee you that i spend more on neccessities than anyone in the 15% bracket...in addition i buy cars, home improvements, stocks, entertainment and travel. Therefore i give the economy a bigger shot then those that spend less...and that's ok because you have to live within your means. Not every poor person deserves 2 cars, Big screen TV, VCR, and a house overlooking the ocean.




The statement I made is true. You are wrong. All people have at least some of the same expenses, gasoline for instance.

Here's an example: Person_A spends $1,200 in one year on gasoline. Person_B spends $1,200 in one year for gasoline. Their yearly incomes are $200,000 and $20,000 respectivly. Person_A has spent 0.6% of his income on gas. Person_B has spent 6.0% of his income on gas.

In reply to:

***I think you missed the purpose of the tax break and rebate checks. The pretext behind them was to stimulate the economy. Not to reward those in higher tax brackets for their hard work and education.****

actually i do know the purpose and the topic has switched to tax breaks.....




I think the purpose always was tax reduction. And I think all the arguments about economic stimulation really were just pretexts to try to justify the tax reduction through the mass media.

BTW, you have seemed to assume I'm poor or somthing. I'm not in the 15% tax bracket. I don't load trucks for a living and I'm not some schlep working at Mickey D's. I'm college educated and middle class. Most of my family are lower class and most of my friends are upper middle class or upper class.



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"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

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InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Male

Registered: 02/08/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
Re: Income Tax checks!! [Re: Captain Jack]
    #369695 - 08/10/01 06:01 AM (22 years, 6 months ago)

so let me get this strait...you WANT me to attack Berry personally? WoW now i'm confused.....

thanks for your 2 cents...it was useless but thanks nonetheless....ha

Relax, Relax, Relax.....it's just a little pin prick * there'll be no more AARRGGHHH!!!! but you may feel a little sick.....


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

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InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Male

Registered: 02/08/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
Re: Income Tax checks!! [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #369704 - 08/10/01 06:30 AM (22 years, 6 months ago)

****You have mistaken financial prosperity for what people deserve. Often people do not get what they deserve. There is injustice,and lots of it. ****

people deserve the money they earn.......as for injustice, self worth is usually higher than perceived worth..it's called life.

****Why on earth does the richest man in the world deserve a greater percentage break on his income tax than a working family or anyone else for that matter? *****

because he pays the most taxes..it's that simple....and he works as well

****Why do you think that the richest man in the world should get a 6.6% tax reduction and someone making $100,000 deserves only a 3% tax rate reduction?****

progressive tax plan......

****And why does the richest man in the world deserve a 6.6 percent break and a family of 5 earning $43,000 deserves no reduction in their tax rate? *****

never said that.

****Why in the world did you even bring this up? Did someone rich urinate on you at one time? I don't get it man****

why would i say what i did if a rich person urinated on me....the unfortunate ones in life feel this way....you have it reversed

****That makes no sense at all. Will you please explain your reasoning behind that incoherent poorly structured statement? ****

if you believe the rich deserve no tax break then it's ignorant

****I have not admitted having 'class envy'. I stated that I don't have class envy. 'Hateful envy' is somthing I don't have in my heart****

You said: Perhaps there is a bit of class envy in it. But the progressive income tax system is a basic principle of our income tax system.

envy..tsk tsk..one of the 7 deadly sins

****How fare is that to tax those that can least afford it, the poor, at the highest rate? ****

necessities (ie: food) is not taxed...a TV is...sounds fair to me

****You took part of a statement I made and pretended that is what I meant****

you said it...not me

****I'm not a moderate. I'm a conservative republican with fiscally conservative thinking****

your kidding right? Have you taken accounting before. From what you've said you lean more towards a fiscal liberal.

****I was against the tax cut and opposed any new federal spending because I believe it is in the nations interest to have a budget surplus at this time****

please, explain to me how taking from the surplus COSTS money. After all there wouldn't be a surplus if we didn't OVER PAY. Economics 101

****The statement I made is true. You are wrong****

Sorry i misunderstood your statement..i thought you said that they spend the most..my bad.

****BTW, you have seemed to assume I'm poor or somthing. ****

you shouldn't assume..ya know what they say.........i never said you were poor nor does it matter

****I'm college educated ****

As am I.

****and most of my friends are upper middle class or upper class****

this really doesn't matter. You don't have to explain this to me

Relax, Relax, Relax.....it's just a little pin prick * there'll be no more AARRGGHHH!!!! but you may feel a little sick.....

Edited by Innvertigo on 08/10/01 09:39 AM.



--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

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InvisibleBeery
newbie

Registered: 07/31/01
Posts: 49
Loc: Massachusetts, USA
Re: Income Tax checks!! [Re: Innvertigo]
    #369847 - 08/10/01 03:39 PM (22 years, 6 months ago)

"i come in 3-4 hours early and work one hour later and spend about an hour posting messages"

Really? One hour?

A quick user search tells me that yesterday on this forum alone you posted 9 posts in a 4 hour period. The day before that you must have been busy doing actual work for your employer, 'cos you only posted 3 times in a one-hour period. Same the day before that. On August 3rd you seem to have been particularly lazy, posting 6 times between 8:24am and 2:37pm.

That's just this one forum. Goodness knows whether or not this is your only outlet for your political propaganda. Either way, you spend an awful lot of time not working for someone who 'works his ass off'. Some folks (like my wife) aren't allowed to just surf the net during working hours - not for a second, let alone an hour (or in your case sometimes 4 hours). She could be fired if her employers found any evidence of non-work-related internet surfing (and they do monitor these things).

Some employers obviously have different ideas about what constitutes work. Some employees obviously have very different ideas about what constitutes 'working one's ass off'.

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OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 9 years, 1 month
Some cherry-picking... [Re: Beery]
    #370023 - 08/11/01 01:25 AM (22 years, 6 months ago)

I have been reading this thread with interest. A lot of incomplete reasoning, wholesale swallowing of party rhetoric, a lack of understanding of cause and effect, and other knee-jerk responses being posted on a single topic.

For the sake of brevity I will address just a few of the more egregious examples, choosing more or less randomly from a wealth of potential targets:

***Beery says: I look forward to the day when the hardworking poor do indeed realise their predicament and put down their tools. That's the day when your attitude will be proven wrong. It won't be a happy day for the wealthy or those of you who think you work harder than everyone else.

If the poor ever put down their tools, the rich won't suffer a bit. They have enough accumulated wealth and goods for themselves and several generations worth of indolent wastrel descendents to survive at well above subsistence level.

***Beery says: As usual, the folks who really keep the economy going are ignored. One of these days, if there's a big enough crash on Wall Street, maybe they'll realise that the rich don't add money into the economy - they take it out.

The rich take it OUT? How much do you think Ford Motor Corporation has paid in taxes in the last century? How many hundreds of thousands of Ford assembly line workers made enough money to buy a house, put their kids through school, and live a reasonably comfortable retirement without having to suck off the public tit?

***Railgun says: ...those that can afford to pay more should and do pay more.

WHY should they pay more? No one has ever been able to morally justify WHY someone who not only is CAPABLE of producing more wealth than others but actually CHOOSES to produce more wealth than others deserves to have more TAKEN from him than others. And no one ever will.

***Phyl says: Do you think they work less hard than people in other earning brackets? Do you think they gain the same level of appreciation as others for the amount of work they do?

Irrelevant. Hard work has absolutely nothing to do with what VALUE that work brings to humankind in general. You want hard work? Let's put everyone to work digging enormous trenches on hands and knees with teaspoons. As soon as the trench is finished, let's get the same crew to fill it in again with tablespoons. While it is undeniable that the thousands of individuals involved in the project worked their asses off, it is equally undeniable that the net wealth produced was zero.

***Railgun says: I find it to be a wee bit of a stretch to come to the conclusion that the working poor don't deserve a cent back and that the rich deserve to have much more returned to them because their human worth is greater.

It has nothing to do with producers having more 'human worth' at all. It is strictly a matter of economic worth. A burger flipper at MacDonald's gets paid less than a medical researcher because his ultimate contribution to society in general is minimal at best. Even a 'Crack Ho' on welfare knows how to make her own burgers that probably taste a hell of a lot better than MacD's crap for a fraction of what MacD charges. But how many individuals are capable of creating a vaccine for polio? Or a treatment for diabetes?

***Railgun says: Oliver Wendell Holmes described taxes as "what we pay for civalized society." That's true. It's the price we pay for living in America or any other country which levies taxes.

What is at issue here is not whether or taxes should be assigned, but HOW they should be assigned. It is NOT a cosmic law of the universe that the more you make, the higher percentage you should pay. Just because it is that way today does not mean it SHOULD be that way.

***Beery opines: Most hardworking folks earning less than $20,000 per year have no time to spend browsing the net or philosophizing.

But they do have the time to patronize MacDonald's or a local bar? This is generalization of the shoddiest nature, Beery. Not every poor person spends their spare time the same way. If some of those earning less than $20,000 a year choose to spend their spare time (and they do have SOME spare time) browsing the net or studying philosophy rather than parking their butts in front of the boob tube (as do all too many middle and upper class folks), they might come across an idea that would help them get ahead in life. We benefit from having more folks philosophizing and cruising the web, regardless of what social stratum they currently inhabit.

***Beery: You're living in a dream world where merit and hard work are compensated equitably. The problem is, it's just a dream. The truth is, hard work is not compensated fairly based on the worth of the thing being produced.

See my example of digging and refilling trenches. Just because you work your ass off selling T shirts doesn't guarantee you a high income.

***Beery says: People at your level of middle management have basically what amounts to socialized healthcare, retirement, etc. - you get all the benefits of a socialized system through your work, but you deny that same safety net to those whose employers don't offer such socialist perks.

Hardly socialist. The corporations' profits and payroll deductions pay for those benefits, not general taxes. For those whose employers cannot provide these benefits, government social problems step in.

In reply to a suggestion that many in the lowest income bracket are 'underachievers', Phyl says:

"In my experience people in the lower earning brackets are nowhere near as motivated by money as those in the higher earnings brackets."

Ummm... so in other words they are underachievers.

Yet in the very next paragraph, Phyl says:

"... I know many people who are stuck in the lowest earning bracket, who are there because of social reasons alone. You come from a poor area, you remain poor, regardless of how hard you work. It's not a matter of doing what it takes to earn the money, as the oportunities simply are not there."

Am I the only one who sees a contradiction between these two statements?

And, if there is no opportunity where you live... move to a place where there is. Thousands of Haitians and Cubans do just that every year. America was settled (and continues to expand) by people who did just that.

***Rail Gun says: Why on earth does the richest man in the world deserve a greater percentage break on his income tax than a working family or anyone else for that matter?

He does not, of course. Everyone should be paying the same percentage of their income, period. A flat tax. As an aside, note the assumption inherent in the use of the term 'break', as if it is a FAVOR granted by a benevolent government that they will actually ALLOW someone to keep some of the money that HE created in the first place.

Since Bill Gates seems to be everyone's favorite whipping boy, let's examine his case a bit more closely, shall we? For the record, I think that his major cash cows, the Windoze operating system and MS Word, are at best mediocre products, but that is irrelevant. It is also undeniable that in home video formats Beta was a superior product to VHS, and 'Dumb and Dumber' grossed more than "The Piano'.

Gates did not get his money by plundering the resources of Third World countries, nor by 'exploiting' offshore child labor. On the contrary, by any estimate produced by any independent source, counterfeit MS products far outnumber legitimate ones. An entire Third World pirating industry generating billions of dollars and employing thousands of people (who pay zero taxes to the US government, it must be noted) exists solely because of Bill Gates.

Gates employs DIRECTLY thousands of people who make a good wage, and indirectly millions more, since it is no exaggeration to say that Gates and his products were the source of the entire high-tech boom. So... no slave labor, no plundering of non-renewable resources, no pollution, no government protectionism (quite the reverse).

His products give geeky social misfits who lack the physical prowess or family connections to become unionized construction workers, who lack the physical beauty to be entertainers or even waiters or bartenders, who lack the self-confidence and self-esteem to be salesmen or politicians, who lack (in some cases, wheelchair-bound individuals, for example) even the means to easily transport themselves to any normal workplace, a chance to not only support themselves, but in many cases to become wealthy by doing so. Web designers, systems engineers, support technicians... I am sure you can think of more.

Yet what is the common cry? He is the richest man in the world! Soak him for more taxes! Bill Gates is the devil! He should be ashamed of his conspicuous consumption!

What utter balderdash.

If you don't like Bill Gates as an example, use Henry Ford, or good ole Wally of WalMart.

The wealthy and the upper middle class supply most of the tax revenue, yet they are the ones who need government services the least.

Folks, the enemy here is not the wealthy. It is not the Bill Gates's of the world. It is the government.

pinky



















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OfflineEllis Dee
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Re: Income Tax checks!! [Re: Innvertigo]
    #370035 - 08/11/01 01:57 AM (22 years, 6 months ago)

In reply to:

****You have mistaken financial prosperity for what people deserve. Often people do not get what they deserve. There is injustice,and lots of it. ****

people deserve the money they earn.......as for injustice, self worth is usually higher than perceived worth..it's called life.




Heck ya people deserve what they earn. It's called the profit motive. And without it America wouldn't be the powerful country it is today. But it isn't right to tax the poor that can least afford it the most. The people with higher incomes have a lot more take home pay even after taxes. No one has suggested trying to make everyone equal, that would be communist and wrong. Those that can afford to pay more should! It's not hurting them one bit.

In reply to:

****Why on earth does the richest man in the world deserve a greater percentage break on his income tax than a working family or anyone else for that matter? *****

because he pays the most taxes..it's that simple....and he works as well




Most people do pay different amounts in taxes. He can afford to pay more and he does. So it's your position that basicaly he pays the most so he should keep the most. Do you think that those that make the least should keep the least percentage? That's the effect of a flat sales tax that you would prefer.

In reply to:

****Why do you think that the richest man in the world should get a 6.6% tax reduction and someone making $100,000 deserves only a 3% tax rate reduction?****

progressive tax plan......




Broken record. Instead of making an argument you keep repeating the same thing over and over and over...

In reply to:

****And why does the richest man in the world deserve a 6.6 percent break and a family of 5 earning $43,000 deserves no reduction in their tax rate? *****

never said that.




You're right, you didn't say that. But that is the effect of the GOP tax plan you have been defending so adamently.

In reply to:

****Why in the world did you even bring this up? Did someone rich urinate on you at one time? I don't get it man****

why would i say what i did if a rich person urinated on me....the unfortunate ones in life feel this way....you have it reversed




I don't know why you would bring it up. It sounded like someone urinated on you. I saw someone passed out at a concert get pissed on before, it was messed up in my opinion. People shouldn't urinate on each other.

In reply to:

****That makes no sense at all. Will you please explain your reasoning behind that incoherent poorly structured statement? ****

if you believe the rich deserve no tax break then it's ignorant




Instead of making rediculous allegations use your brain and explain yourself inteligently. It sounds from the lack of basis you've presented that your opinion is the one that's ignorant.

In reply to:

****I have not admitted having 'class envy'. I stated that I don't have class envy. 'Hateful envy' is somthing I don't have in my heart****

You said: Perhaps there is a bit of class envy in it. But the progressive income tax system is a basic principle of our income tax system.

envy..tsk tsk..one of the 7 deadly sins




I never said that I had class envy. I said that perhaps ther is class envy in the progressive tax system. Tisk Tisk Tisk. Shame on you for intentionaly misinterpreting my statements.

In reply to:

****How fare is that to tax those that can least afford it, the poor, at the highest rate? ****

necessities (ie: food) is not taxed...a TV is...sounds fair to me




Bunk! The necessities of life are taxed. Electric, gasoline, clothing, furniture, toothpaste, OTC medication, and a lot more. It sounds fare to you because you're greedy.

Tsk Tsk

Isaiah 56:11 Yea, they are greedy dogs which can never have enough, and they are shepherds that cannot understand: They all look to their own way, every one for his own gain, from his quarter.

In reply to:

****You took part of a statement I made and pretended that is what I meant****

you said it...not me




So instead of even attempting to explain your unethical out of context quotation you pass the the blame. Never wanting to take responsibility, typical.

In reply to:

****I'm not a moderate. I'm a conservative republican with fiscally conservative thinking****

your kidding right? Have you taken accounting before. From what you've said you lean more towards a fiscal liberal.




No, of course I'm not kidding. I don't ususally use sarcasim in serious discussions.

Wanting to preserve a budget surplus is not really a liberal idea, now is it. Do you care to elaborate on why you think I'm a fiscal liberal?

In reply to:

****I was against the tax cut and opposed any new federal spending because I believe it is in the nations interest to have a budget surplus at this time****

please, explain to me how taking from the surplus COSTS money. After all there wouldn't be a surplus if we didn't OVER PAY. Economics 101




You must really be desperate to use the economics 101 or poly sci 101 excuse. Infering that the person you're debating is ignorant is in my opinion one of the most desperate ploys there are. (I was in debate club and I know)

When there is a large debt and other financial obligations it is responsible to make sure you can pay the debt and meet your other obligations before you go on a new spending spree. This is kind of funny in a way, preaching fiscal conservtism to what should be the converted congregation.



Edited by Rail_Gun on 08/11/01 10:53 AM.



--------------------
"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

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OfflineOdd_Snail
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Re: Income Tax checks!! [Re: Innvertigo]
    #370046 - 08/11/01 02:21 AM (22 years, 6 months ago)

well i hate them both. who do you vote for: the idiot or the liar? doesn't it seem funny how gore said he would make just about everything his "number one priority?" well i have to support bush because he supports my guns and gore doesn't.

"It tastes like...burning.." -Ralph Wiggum.

>If you are not wasted, then the day is.<




--------------------
Darlene: "Ted, I got you this new nose plug to stop you from snoring at night."
Ted: "Uh yeah, and I got you this paper bag to stop you from looking like James Brown in the Morning."
Darlene: "Oh come now, I don't look anything like James Brown."
Ted: "Hey kids, who does your mom look like in the morning?"
Kids... in unison: "James Brown!"
Darlene, "All right, thats enough... It's poison spaghetti for dinner tonight."

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OfflineEllis Dee
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Re: Some cherry-picking... [Re: Phred]
    #370054 - 08/11/01 02:32 AM (22 years, 6 months ago)

In reply to:

***Railgun says: ...those that can afford to pay more should and do pay more.

WHY should they pay more? No one has ever been able to morally justify WHY someone who not only is CAPABLE of producing more wealth than others but actually CHOOSES to produce more wealth than others deserves to have more TAKEN from him than others. And no one ever will.




I had hoped to keep the regressive vs. progressive debate that this thread has been evolving to to the thread titled taxes, regressive vs progressive, lol. I guess that's not going to happen.

The people with higher incomes should be taxed at a greater percentage than those with lower incomes because the tax paid by those with higher incomes is coming out of their surplus and the tax paid by those with lower incomes is paid out of money that they need more, it is coming out of their grocery and rent money, they can't get their kids new clothes because of what they pay. The rich however aren't being hurt at all.

Here is the pro vs. con on the subject from http://www.youdebate.com/DEBATES/TAX_PROGRESSIVE.HTM :

PRO 1

A PROGRESSIVE TAX RATE IS WHEN YOU COLLECT A HIGHER PERCENTAGE OF INCOME FROM THE RICH THAN FROM THE

POOR. IF YOUR INCOME IS LOW ENOUGH YOU MAY NOT PAY ANY TAX.



CON 2

BY DOING THIS YOU PUNISH SUCCESS AND REWARD FAILURE.



CON 3

HOW CAN IT BE FAIR FOR THE GOVERNMENT TO TAKE DIFFERENT PERCENTAGES OF INCOME FROM DIFFERENT PEOPLE. THE FLAT TAX PLAN TAKES THE SAME PERCENT FROM EVERYONE.



PRO 3.1

PERCENTAGES ARE JUST NUMBERS, WHAT'S IMPORTANT IS WHAT YOUR TAKING FROM PEOPLE. YOUR TAKING BASIC NECESSITIES FROM ONE AND LUXURIES FROM THE OTHER. YOUR MIGHT BE TAKING A SAFE NEIGHBORHOOD FROM ONE AND A VACATION HOME FROM THE OTHER. YOU MIGHT BE TAKING DECENT SCHOOL CLOTHES FROM A LITTLE GIRL VERSES A BMW TO DRIVE TO SCHOOL FROM ANOTHER.



PRO 3.2

LUKE 21: AS JESUS WATCHED RICH MEN PUT THEIR OFFERINGS IN THE TREASURY, A POOR WIDOW PUT IN TWO COPPER COINS. AT THAT JESUS SAID: I ASSURE YOU THIS POOR WIDOW HAS PUT IN MORE THAN ALL THE REST. THEY MADE CONTRIBUTIONS OUT OF THEIR SURPLUS, BUT SHE GAVE WHAT SHE COULD NOT AFFORD


I trust this is sufficiently clear.



--------------------
"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

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Re: Income Tax checks!! [Re: Odd_Snail]
    #370059 - 08/11/01 02:42 AM (22 years, 6 months ago)

Odd snail,

Bush got a lot of support from us good pro gun NRA folks. That's why he got the votes from several of my family members. We HAVE to stick together and vote as a block if we want to continue to be legally allowed to keep and bear arms. Good Bush won instead of Gore. Gore was evil.



--------------------
"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

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OfflineEllis Dee
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Re: Some cherry-picking... [Re: Phred]
    #370086 - 08/11/01 04:43 AM (22 years, 6 months ago)

Why should the rich pay more than the poor?

Some say, for the same reason reason John Dillinger robbed banks: because that's where the money is. There is some logic to that, the richest 2% control in the ballpark of 40% of the private wealth in the USA. Others say; "Because they can afford it." Others who complain about progressive taxes say it's because people want "revenge on the rich", or it's "class envy". Or they say, "Why should the successful people be penalized?" That is an interesting take on reality.

But there is one argument that is not often seen, the "follow the money", or follow the tax money argument. Simply put, it says you get what you pay for. It says that if you eat a gourmet meal, you have purchased an entire different meal (not just more of it) than for a McDonald's Happy Meal. We claim that progressive taxes buys Rich Boy toys, regressive taxes buy Poor Boy toys. We say fair is fair. To test this idea, we follow the tax money.

Progressive taxes (such as income taxes) pay mostly for Rich Boy toys: Desert Storm, Cold War, gunboat diplomacy, the Fed's infinite labor pool (WANTED: unemployment) and any related poverty, NAFTA, GAT, free trade agreements, interstate freeways, National Parks, FBI, CIA, a hot-shot standing military, etc. And regressive taxes: (mostly local sales taxes and fees) go for Poor Boy toys: local roads, hospitals, schools, local parks, libraries, cops, city/county councils, fire fighting, etc.

If "toys" sounds too flippant, feel free to swap with a term that rings true for you, such as "tools of the trade", or "economic infrastructures."

To oversimplify a bit, a carpenter does not require the Rich Boy toys, and the CEO of GM does not require the Poor Boy toys. And progressive (mostly federal income) taxes soak the rich, regressive (mostly local sales) taxes soak the poor.

So each Boy is largely paying for his own meal.


The above from http://www.psnw.com/~bashford/taxation.html , I did not personaly write it.



--------------------
"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

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Re: Income Tax checks!! [Re: Innvertigo]
    #370087 - 08/11/01 04:49 AM (22 years, 6 months ago)

An example of why sales tax is regressive.


If progressive taxes soak the rich, and regressive taxes soak the poor, why do we almost never hear the term, "soak the poor"? Perhaps that is a "loaded" question?
Let's imagine two frugal traveling salesmen. They each have to buy a new car every four years to (say) keep up appearances, and they need reliable transportation.
(One guy makes 20K, the other 300K)
Run the numbers on a the RATE of total income each pays on on 5% sales tax.

Poor Boy buys a $20,000 car pays $1000 or 5.0% of his income.
Rich Boy buys a $60,000 car pays $3000 or 1.0% of his income.

Poor Boy has 5 times the tax bite, or rate of tax on a car. Rich Boy hardly feels sales taxes.

Then run the numbers on a $30 pair of Levis, and the tax rate discrepancy triples.
Sales tax is NOT a flat tax.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Other examples of regressive taxes and fees.
Most per-unit taxes are regressive. For example, in real estate, a $1,000/yr per lot assessment fee is not uncommon in some areas. (for things like fire and sewer, etc) That's a fair chunk for a $200,000 home, hardly nothing for a $2,000,000 home in the same assessment district.

Here is an example of a per-unit tax also of the "sin tax" variety, combining two of the most regressive of all taxes. In California, a (say) $1/gallon of alcoholic beverage tax was enacted, then quickly repealed. The reason was, this was a major tax bite on a six-pack of beer, and almost nothing on a $150 bottle of champagne, or a $60 bottle of scotch or wine. Often sin-taxes are easy for politicians, not this time. There was a similar per-unit "snack tax" that met a similar fate because of potato chips v. caviar and such. These amplifications of the tax rate discrepancy work in conjunction with the normal regressive sales tax functions.

That outlines the basic ideas and theory of regressive taxation.


Complications.
These have a moral or arguable aspect. Groceries, drugs and some necessities are rarely taxed for moral reasons because of a compounding problem found with the truly poor that has to do with disposable income. That is, a family that earns less than say, $25,000 has almost none. They may be forced to spend say, 25% of their income on groceries, no choice. A family earning $100K hardly feels the grocery bill in comparison.
This is because even a family that earns say $50,000 has potentially $25,000 disposable if they chose to live as cheaply as the $25k family. This could be funnelled into tax shelters. And Rich Boy often chooses to spend most of his money in ways that avoid sales taxes, such on his gardener, nanny, pool cleaner, chauffeur, accountant, lawyer, and other labor-based services, as well a his European vacation and any investments. Poor Boy has no such choice, his income must go to taxable consumer goods. These complications amplify the "pure" qualities of regressive taxation theory.

the above is from http://www.psnw.com/~bashford/taxation.html, I did not personaly write it.



--------------------
"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

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Re: Income Tax checks!! [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #370133 - 08/11/01 09:44 AM (22 years, 6 months ago)

Invertigo, since you seem to be so concerned with judging others and accusing them of commiting some of the seven deadly sins I'm going to reiterate your hypocracy that Beery first pointed out. You have been lazy at work by surfing the internet. That is sloth, one of the seven deadly sins. t is also dishonest to cheat your employer out of your salary for that time you're not working. It may also be illegal, theft by deception maybe.

You have a log stuck in your eye. You should deal with that before you try to pluck a speck of dust from the eyes of others.





--------------------
"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

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InvisibleCaptain Jack
i [heart] you

Registered: 01/23/00
Posts: 4,113
Re: Income Tax checks!! [Re: Innvertigo]
    #370138 - 08/11/01 09:52 AM (22 years, 6 months ago)

"so let me get this strait...you WANT me to attack Berry personally? WoW now i'm confused.....

thanks for your 2 cents...it was useless but thanks nonetheless....ha"

You moron. You damn well I didn't mean that. I just wanted to point out that you're contradicting yourself.

http://www.captainjackmusic.com


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