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Invisiblefearfect
Registered: 01/15/04
Posts: 1,845
socialism and capitalism
    #4067344 - 04/18/05 02:46 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

I am curious. Have any of you lived in one or the other and moved and experienced the other form of government? (providing both were somewhat well established non-third world countries). If so, what are your opinions on some of the hot topics like healthcare etc.?


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InvisiblePsychoactive1984
PositiveCynicist
Male
Registered: 02/06/05
Posts: 3,546
Loc: California, Monterey Coun...
Re: socialism and capitalism [Re: fearfect]
    #4067358 - 04/18/05 02:49 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

I haven't, but what I gather in terms of the USA/Canadian comparison, that as a result of health care being public, the doctor's suffer as a result of not being properly motivated in terms of quality of service and care. I do like their system, and how it's free for everyone, although I appreciated the competitive elemient of USA's form, as their is a motivation for the doctor's to be proficient in their work. I dunno, without a good incentive, most people will only do the bare minimum, and not attempt to excel in their profession.


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.


Edited by Psychoactive1984 (04/18/05 06:46 AM)


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InvisibleDieCommie
Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 28,165
Re: socialism and capitalism [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #4067401 - 04/18/05 03:11 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Psychoactive1984 said:
...and how it's free for everyone...


Thats not true. Everyone pays for it. Socalized medicine is not free for anyone, nor should it be.


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InvisibleAnnapurna1
liberal pussy
Female User Gallery
Registered: 05/21/02
Posts: 5,646
Loc: innsmouth..MA
Re: socialism and capitalism *DELETED* [Re: DieCommie]
    #4067428 - 04/18/05 03:22 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Post deleted by Annapurna1

Reason for deletion: preempt pinky...



--------------------


"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...


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InvisibleDieCommie
Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 28,165
Re: socialism and capitalism [Re: Annapurna1]
    #4067434 - 04/18/05 03:26 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Ill ignore the rude and uncalled for name calling.

Are you implying that socalized medicine is free? How?

I am under the impression that it is paid for from taxes. Please correct me if im wrong.


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InvisibleAnnapurna1
liberal pussy
Female User Gallery
Registered: 05/21/02
Posts: 5,646
Loc: innsmouth..MA
Re: socialism and capitalism [Re: DieCommie]
    #4067459 - 04/18/05 03:38 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

so do you think that the fire department should work just like the healthcare system in the US??...that might not be such a bad idea..if its your ass that gets trapped in a fire...but OTOH..it might be mine..so i would still have to say no...


--------------------


"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...


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InvisibleDieCommie
Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 28,165
Re: socialism and capitalism [Re: Annapurna1]
    #4067475 - 04/18/05 03:45 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Annapurna1 said:
so do you think that the fire department should work just like the healthcare system in the US??...that might not be such a bad idea..if its your ass that gets trapped in a fire...but OTOH..it might be mine..so i would still have to say no...


  That has nothing to do with my question.  Your assuming I am advocating private health care over socialized, but I am not.  Your prejudice against me has clouded you judgment.

Ill restate my question-  How is socialized medicine free?
The fire dept. is not free.  The firefighters require wages.  The firehouse and trucks cost money to make.  All this is paid for with my taxes.  I think you just proved my point - Thanks.

P.S. Its not very nice to want me to die in a fire.  You could use some sensitivity training.  :hippie:


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Invisiblez@z.com
Libertarian
Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 2,876
Loc: ATL
Re: socialism and capitalism [Re: Annapurna1]
    #4067497 - 04/18/05 03:59 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Annapurna1 said:
so do you think that the fire department should work just like the healthcare system in the US?



A fire threatens more than just one person. If my neighbors house is on fire then my house is in danger as well.


--------------------
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson


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InvisiblePsychoactive1984
PositiveCynicist
Male
Registered: 02/06/05
Posts: 3,546
Loc: California, Monterey Coun...
Re: socialism and capitalism [Re: DieCommie]
    #4067907 - 04/18/05 06:46 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
Quote:

Psychoactive1984 said:
...and how it's free for everyone...


Thats not true. Everyone pays for it. Socalized medicine is not free for anyone, nor should it be.




In respects to out of pocket expenses. One could suggest that many government sponsored programs are free as they aren't directly paid for. My mistake, I'll be more specific it's late/early here.


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.


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OfflineBanJankri
FreefallerUpwards

Registered: 07/27/04
Posts: 1,392
Last seen: 9 years, 3 months
Re: socialism and capitalism [Re: fearfect]
    #4067944 - 04/18/05 07:35 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Its somewhat personal. I havent but a lot of my friends have and theres a mixed feeling within them.


--------------------
Just let everything flow, just flow right to the center of everything. You gotta turn off your mind and relax, and then just float downstream...


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OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4,770
Loc: London UK
Last seen: 9 days, 11 hours
Re: socialism and capitalism [Re: z@z.com]
    #4067950 - 04/18/05 07:39 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

A fire threatens more than just one person.




So does an infectious disease. Especially when left untreated!


--------------------
Always Smi2le


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Invisiblepsilomonkey
Twisted brainwrong of a oneoff man mental

Registered: 08/08/03
Posts: 812
Loc: Airstrip One
Re: socialism and capitalism [Re: GazzBut]
    #4068001 - 04/18/05 08:41 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

GazzBut said:
Quote:

A fire threatens more than just one person.




So does an infectious disease. Especially when left untreated!




Or even better, poorly treated with insufficient antibiotics.


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OfflineJesusChrist
Son Of God
Registered: 02/19/04
Posts: 1,459
Last seen: 4 years, 10 months
Our current medical system is rife with socialism [Re: psilomonkey]
    #4068083 - 04/18/05 10:12 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Our system has tons of socialization in it. Where I live your medical care is free if you are on welfare or make below the poverty level. I suspect that is the way it is in many places.

I do not think that hospitals are allowed to not admit patients or make them prove that they can pay before admitting them. Governments pay for indigent care and care for the poor through taxes. Sometimes charities foot some of the bills.

One of the problems that we have is how people work the system. Welfare mothers go to the emergency room if their kid has a cold or is running a fever to get medicine. Emergency room visits are more expensive, and it clogs the system for efficiently handling real emergencies. If they can't get a ride to the emergency room, they call for an ambulance. Where I live that is handled by the fire department.

Because of the better technology and the evolution of the building codes, we don't have as many fires as we used too. But fire departments are bigger than ever, and 90% of what they do is tantamount to being a taxi service for the poor to the hospital.

I think that one of the problems of our system is that it doesn't involve much capitalism. People aren't aware what the doctor is charging, they are only aware of their "co-pay", or what they have to pay out of pocket. In the case of the working poor and those on welfare, they don't pay anything so they could give a flying fuck.

If you simply charged every poor person $5 for an appointment at an outpatient medical clinic vs. $25 for an emergency room visit, it would make the whole system more effective. Poor people would make appointments at the clinics to save $20, and the portion that Uncle Sam picks up would go down substantially.

The frustrating thing for me is the hospitals don't like to publish prices. You generally find out how much you pay after the fact. Shockingly, many doctors aren't even aware of how much their services will be billed for, and could not even tell you if you asked them.

Call up your local hospitals and ask them how much it costs to have a baby. Try to compare prices. See if anyone can tell you. Then wonder to yourself if this really is a private system, or a free market capitalistic system.

One little story. My wife and I are in a health insurance program that you can sock away money like an IRA. It is tax free and it grows from year to year and you can invest it. We can put up to $5,000 in the fund every year, and that money is not subject to federal taxes.

We also have health insurance with a $5,000 deductible. We pay for all of our health expenses and then get reimbursed for everything over $5,000. It gives us a tremendous incentive to look at costs.

My wife was pregnant with what was going to be our third child. Sadly she lost the baby. We went to have the dead fetus removed at a local hospital. It cost us over $4,000.00. Compare that to if we had a healthy baby and went to an abortion clinic. I believe those procedures cost in the hundreds. I am guessing that the federal government subsidizes the killing of babies. I am not sure, but after the fact I was regretting the fact that I had lost thousands of dollars by not choosing the right facility.

And nobody is price conscious, and nobody tries to get the information out there to the masses. They don't teach anyone about health care in school. Everybody is left to fend for themselves and wade through a complex system where there is no pressure on cost containment or cutting expenses.

If you lose a baby, my advice to you is to go to a Planned Parenthood facility if you pay your own way. Hopefully my experience will help someone save thousands of dollars.

My problem with our system is that it is socialized to the point where it is inefficient and costly for everyone involved. The cost for health care for Americans has been rising faster than the cost of living for decades. We either need to switch to a better system of socialization, or we need to reintroduce market forces into the system.

And I just remembered another problem that I like to bitch about. Sorry for the long post that isn?t very organized.

Insurance companies pay a lesser price for hospital services than those people with cash on the barrelhead. Paying cash has to be cheaper than filling out a myriad of insurance forms and going through some huge bureaucracy. They can use some sort of ?quantities of scale? argument, but can you really have quantities of scale on broken legs? My leg is broke; the doctor needs to fix it. Does it matter if I have insurance or am paying cash? Why should the cash payer have to pay a higher price? That could be termed many things, but capitalism doesn?t come to mind.

Another trick insurance companies like to do is tell you they are paying for $10,000 worth of medical care when really they are only paying a percentage of that through agreements with hospitals. These deals are also on high priced prescription drugs. Some companies negotiate better deals on drugs than you could buy them at. This gives the HMO an incentive to use one drug over another regardless of effectiveness, because they can make more money on it. And if you tried to buy that drug with cash and aren?t in an HMO, you would pay a higher price. Is that free trade? Where are the market forces? Is that capitalism and free competition?

The system could benefit from competition and market forces. We could make the system more efficient by the introduction of the price mechanism so that people know what they pay and have an incentive to lower that amount.


--------------------
Tastes just like chicken


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Invisiblefearfect
Registered: 01/15/04
Posts: 1,845
Re: Our current medical system is rife with socialism [Re: JesusChrist]
    #4068158 - 04/18/05 11:11 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

I know that everyone has their opinions on the "other". But like I asked, has anyone experienced both firsthand?


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Invisibletrick

Registered: 10/22/04
Posts: 1,059
Loc: unknown
Re: Our current medical system is rife with socialism [Re: fearfect]
    #4068176 - 04/18/05 11:23 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Staying to your question: I have not. Although, I have seen the people parade Fidel when he walks into the street with the people. Fidel really doesn't have that much power, he's more of a spiritual leader or a counselor of some sort. I was especially taken by an African who said "this is the only place where a black man can live equally." People chanted how they would die for socialism and Cuba.

That's just an observation.


Edited by trick (04/18/05 11:23 AM)


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InvisiblePsychoactive1984
PositiveCynicist
Male
Registered: 02/06/05
Posts: 3,546
Loc: California, Monterey Coun...
Re: Our current medical system is rife with socialism [Re: fearfect]
    #4068525 - 04/18/05 02:02 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Plenty of Canadians on these boards, just give it a while.

Edit:
I don't think socialism and capitilism need to conflict... their could be a standardized progam of healthcare, fully subsidized by the state for those unable to pay for healthcare (better then medicare and all those shity programs), but definetly need to do something in regards to rewarding the doctors for their efforts, and keep the competitive atmosphere of capitilism, as IMO it's akin to social evolution in way of it's reward... Perhaps in regards to Canada's structure they are underfunded :shrug: I don't know enough about their system to make anything but an assumption.


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.


Edited by Psychoactive1984 (04/18/05 02:23 PM)


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OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/19/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 2 years, 6 months
Re: Our current medical system is rife with socialism [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #4068598 - 04/18/05 02:27 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

I don't think socialism and capitilism need to conflict...




They cannot help but conflict, by definition. Capitalism forbids government having anything to do with the economy, Socialism requires government interference in the economy.

You might argue that some government interference in the economy is a good thing, but you cannot argue that Socialism and Capitalism do not conflict -- they cannot help but conflict by their very natures.



Phred


--------------------


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InvisiblePsychoactive1984
PositiveCynicist
Male
Registered: 02/06/05
Posts: 3,546
Loc: California, Monterey Coun...
Re: Our current medical system is rife with socialism [Re: Phred]
    #4068846 - 04/18/05 04:11 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Your right in terms of definition... although in terms of healthcare their is no reason why one can't take the best of both sides.

Socialism in the sense of the action of the word, not the theory that is, it's primarily used to benefit those it serves, whereas capitilism is more selfless in the sense of social darwinism (kill or be killed in the like).


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.


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OfflineRoseM
Devil's Advocate
Female User Gallery

Registered: 09/24/03
Posts: 22,294
Loc: Mod not God Flag
Last seen: 11 days, 13 hours
Re: Our current medical system is rife with socialism [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #4068889 - 04/18/05 04:30 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

I'd love to see a socialist govt. and a Capitalist public. It keeps the govt. honest, and taxes high, just like I like 'em!

Kinda' the opposite of Libertarianism.

It seems to work well for Europe.

I mean, isn't that sorta' what Secularism is all about?


--------------------
Fiddlesticks.



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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
Re: Our current medical system is rife with socialism [Re: Rose]
    #4068906 - 04/18/05 04:37 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

no, no and no.


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