Home | Community | Message Board

MushroomMan Mycology
This site includes paid links. Please support our sponsors.


Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Shop: Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   Kraken Kratom Kratom Capsules for Sale   Myyco.com Golden Teacher Liquid Culture For Sale

Jump to first unread post Pages: 1 | 2  [ show all ]
Offlinewilshire
free radical
Male User Gallery

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2,421
Loc: SE PA
Last seen: 14 years, 1 month
"healthcare/employment/shelter/etc. is a basic human right"
    #5256665 - 02/02/06 07:15 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

i've heard this a few times. for believers:

if you do not have healthcare, who is violating your rights?
if you do not have a job, who is violating your rights?
if you do not have a home, who is violating your rights?


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleRandalFlagg
Stranger
Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
Re: "healthcare/employment/shelter/etc. is a basic human right" [Re: wilshire]
    #5256875 - 02/02/06 08:06 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Collectivist-think. Certain things have arisen because of technology and they think it is necessary for all people to have access to these things - even if it means making other people foot the bill for it.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineJesusChrist
Son Of God
Registered: 02/19/04
Posts: 1,459
Last seen: 11 years, 6 months
Re: "healthcare/employment/shelter/etc. is a basic human right" [Re: wilshire]
    #5257139 - 02/02/06 08:57 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

wilshire said:
i've heard this a few times. for believers:

if you do not have healthcare, who is violating your rights?
if you do not have a job, who is violating your rights?
if you do not have a home, who is violating your rights?




Thank you.


--------------------
Tastes just like chicken

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineSeussA
Error: divide byzero

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 23,480
Loc: Caribbean
Last seen: 1 month, 9 days
Re: "healthcare/employment/shelter/etc. is a basic human right" [Re: JesusChrist]
    #5258187 - 02/03/06 02:48 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

> if you do not have a job, who is violating your rights?

You are. Now give me a television, bitch, so I can watch Springer and Oprah.

(sarcasm for the humor impaired)


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinewilshire
free radical
Male User Gallery

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2,421
Loc: SE PA
Last seen: 14 years, 1 month
Re: "healthcare/employment/shelter/etc. is a basic human right" [Re: wilshire]
    #5258771 - 02/03/06 10:50 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

no takers? is annapurna1 right? have the right wing crazies really taken over?


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblebukkake
Male

Registered: 05/28/05
Posts: 2,764
Loc: Classified
Re: "healthcare/employment/shelter/etc. is a basic human right" [Re: wilshire]
    #5259303 - 02/03/06 01:27 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

if you do not have healthcare, who is violating your rights?



If you do not have healthcare, then...? Too bad? Darwinism is dated.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinedaimyo
Monticello

Registered: 05/13/04
Posts: 7,751
Last seen: 12 years, 1 month
Re: "healthcare/employment/shelter/etc. is a basic human right" [Re: wilshire]
    #5259328 - 02/03/06 01:33 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

wilshire said:
no takers? is annapurna1 right? have the right wing crazies really taken over?




I think more accurately, the utopian idealists have given up arguing. The bong is more important.


--------------------
"I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man."

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinewilshire
free radical
Male User Gallery

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2,421
Loc: SE PA
Last seen: 14 years, 1 month
Re: "healthcare/employment/shelter/etc. is a basic human right" [Re: bukkake]
    #5260101 - 02/03/06 05:28 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

If you do not have healthcare, then...? Too bad? Darwinism is dated.

if you want to address the question, the thread's still open.

is healthcare, or a job, or a home, or education a "basic human right"?

if you lack one of these, who is responsible for violating your rights?


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibletrendalM
J♠
Male User Gallery

Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 20,815
Loc: Ontario, Canada Flag
Re: "healthcare/employment/shelter/etc. is a basic human right" [Re: wilshire]
    #5260148 - 02/03/06 05:49 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Define "basic human right" first.

Are these rights that are inalienable in nature, like Natural Law? Or are they "rights" that have been agreed upon by some constitutional body?


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinewilshire
free radical
Male User Gallery

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2,421
Loc: SE PA
Last seen: 14 years, 1 month
Re: "healthcare/employment/shelter/etc. is a basic human right" [Re: trendal]
    #5260228 - 02/03/06 06:18 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

i've heard it referred to as an inalienable right.

and what other kind of right can there be, anyway? if it's not inalienable, it's not a right. it's something else... a privilege, entitlement, desert, or idulgence maybe... but not a right.

while i believe in inalienable rights, i'm going to split some of the other libertarians here and say that i'm not sure that one can prove they exist. what i will say is that if rights exist, they are inalienable, and that anything that is not inalienable should not be called a right.

does anyone here believe that healthcare or employment is an inalienable right?


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibletrendalM
J♠
Male User Gallery

Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 20,815
Loc: Ontario, Canada Flag
Re: "healthcare/employment/shelter/etc. is a basic human right" [Re: wilshire]
    #5260236 - 02/03/06 06:22 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

does anyone here believe that healthcare or employment is an inalienable right?

I don't.

That isn't to say they aren't "good things"....but certainly not inalienable rights.

In fact I would say there is only one "basic human right" and that is the right to live and live freely. All else stems from that single right.


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibletrendalM
J♠
Male User Gallery

Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 20,815
Loc: Ontario, Canada Flag
Re: "healthcare/employment/shelter/etc. is a basic human right" [Re: trendal]
    #5260248 - 02/03/06 06:26 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

On the other hand I do think there are "rights" which are not basic or inalienable - those of citizens' rights. These are the "rights" that are agreed upon in a constitution or law of some sort. They are not human rights - because they do not apply to all humans - but they are rights to the citizens of a country because within that country's framework they can not be taken away.


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinewilshire
free radical
Male User Gallery

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2,421
Loc: SE PA
Last seen: 14 years, 1 month
Re: "healthcare/employment/shelter/etc. is a basic human right" [Re: trendal]
    #5260256 - 02/03/06 06:30 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

i wouldn't call those 'rights' though. you're either talking about a law that recognizes a pre-existing right, or one which establishes some legal protection above and beyond real rights - one which almost always requires the violation of real, inalienable rights to enforce.


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibletrendalM
J♠
Male User Gallery

Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 20,815
Loc: Ontario, Canada Flag
Re: "healthcare/employment/shelter/etc. is a basic human right" [Re: wilshire]
    #5260266 - 02/03/06 06:34 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

In my experience they are still referred to as "rights" because, as I said, they can not be taken away within a country which recognizes them in its law.

Say, the "right" to legal representation, or to a fair trial, for example.


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleSilversoul
Rhizome
Male User Gallery

Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
Re: "healthcare/employment/shelter/etc. is a basic human right" [Re: wilshire]
    #5262553 - 02/04/06 01:15 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

They're not "basic human rights," but they are necessary for surviving in a modern society, and compassion dictates that we should ensure, through whatever means necessary, that they are readily accessible to anyone who needs them.


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleRandalFlagg
Stranger
Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
Re: "healthcare/employment/shelter/etc. is a basic human right" [Re: Silversoul]
    #5262717 - 02/04/06 01:54 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Paradigm said:
They're not "basic human rights," but they are necessary for surviving in a modern society, and compassion dictates that we should ensure, through whatever means necessary, that they are readily accessible to anyone who needs them.




Oh my God. What happened to my fellow heartless libertarian? Paradigm? Is that really you?

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleSilversoul
Rhizome
Male User Gallery

Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
Re: "healthcare/employment/shelter/etc. is a basic human right" [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #5262751 - 02/04/06 02:08 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

RandalFlagg said:
Quote:

Paradigm said:
They're not "basic human rights," but they are necessary for surviving in a modern society, and compassion dictates that we should ensure, through whatever means necessary, that they are readily accessible to anyone who needs them.




Oh my God. What happened to my fellow heartless libertarian? Paradigm? Is that really you?



Note that I did not say that they should necessarily be provided by the government(nor am I saying they shouldn't). Many people have made the argument that a free market would provide these things most effectively. I happen to disagree, but nonetheless, the above statement is not necessarily in conflict with libertarianism.


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleRandalFlagg
Stranger
Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
Re: "healthcare/employment/shelter/etc. is a basic human right" [Re: Silversoul]
    #5262774 - 02/04/06 02:17 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

TRAITOR!!!    :smirk:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleAnnapurna1
liberal pussy
Female User Gallery
Registered: 05/21/02
Posts: 5,646
Loc: innsmouth..MA
Re: "healthcare/employment/shelter/etc. is a basic human right" [Re: wilshire]
    #5267059 - 02/05/06 06:42 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

the notion that neither of those is a basic human right has a direct corollary ..a person should not be allowed to live if the state cannot use him/her...for example..if your sick..and your labour value cannot cover the cost of medical treatment..then why should you be allowed to live??...why not simply euthanize your ass and harvest whatever spare parts.. and/or sell you off as bars of soap??...if thats not naziism..then i dont know what is...in either case..if we are not to tolerate it..then at the very least healthcare has to be a right..and if we have to find economic justification for the cost of that healthcare..then so does a job...


--------------------


"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinewilshire
free radical
Male User Gallery

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2,421
Loc: SE PA
Last seen: 14 years, 1 month
Re: "healthcare/employment/shelter/etc. is a basic human right" [Re: Annapurna1]
    #5267459 - 02/05/06 08:55 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

the notion that neither of those is a basic human right has a direct corollary ..a person should not be allowed to live if the state cannot use him/her

how are the chances of you explaining this leap of logic? or of answering the question posed in the title post of the thread?


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineAncalagon
AgnosticLibertarian

Registered: 07/30/02
Posts: 1,364
Last seen: 15 years, 1 month
Re: "healthcare/employment/shelter/etc. is a basic human right" [Re: wilshire]
    #5267585 - 02/05/06 09:19 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

wilshire said:
the notion that neither of those is a basic human right has a direct corollary ..a person should not be allowed to live if the state cannot use him/her

how are the chances of you explaining this leap of logic? or of answering the question posed in the title post of the thread?



Why you bother, MM, will be forever beyond my grasp.


--------------------
?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleRavus
Not an EggshellWalker
 User Gallery

Registered: 07/18/03
Posts: 7,991
Loc: Cave of the Patriarchs
Re: "healthcare/employment/shelter/etc. is a basic human right" [Re: trendal]
    #5267615 - 02/05/06 09:29 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

trendal said:
does anyone here believe that healthcare or employment is an inalienable right?

I don't.

That isn't to say they aren't "good things"....but certainly not inalienable rights.

In fact I would say there is only one "basic human right" and that is the right to live and live freely. All else stems from that single right.




Is a basic human right an inalienable right? Because if so, I think your "right" is completely false, seeing as not only can people take it away, but they do every day. People imprison others, torture them, kidnap them, slaughter them en masse and kill them one by one, showing that humans most definitely do not have the right live and live freely.

The only inalienable right, in my opinion, is the right to die. No one can take this away from you, even if they try to postpone it a short while.

"Rights" as a concept are bullshit anyway. We don't have rights, unless the rights are built into the Constitution of the country, and clearly, free health care is not built into the Constitution. That is not to say it can't be given by Congress, but I don't think it's unconstitutional not to have health care, though you could argue that the right to "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness" includes the right to health care to ensure life. I don't buy that though, plus this is in the Declaration of Independence and not the Constitution, so it's only in spirit anyway, not in law...


--------------------
So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinewilshire
free radical
Male User Gallery

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2,421
Loc: SE PA
Last seen: 14 years, 1 month
Re: "healthcare/employment/shelter/etc. is a basic human right" [Re: Ravus]
    #5267632 - 02/05/06 09:36 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

"Rights" as a concept are bullshit anyway.

thank you for your honesty.


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Jump to top Pages: 1 | 2  [ show all ]

Shop: Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   Kraken Kratom Kratom Capsules for Sale   Myyco.com Golden Teacher Liquid Culture For Sale


Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* "torture-lite" and human rights after 9/11 Edame 821 4 06/28/03 08:08 AM
by Cornholio
* Human Rights violations at Guantanamo Bay
( 1 2 all )
Swami 3,226 37 12/20/03 07:05 AM
by mntlfngrs
* outsourced jobs, a crime against humanity afoaf 362 0 10/06/04 06:26 PM
by afoaf
* Police basically...
( 1 2 all )
Cracka_X 1,956 22 05/15/03 07:35 PM
by atomikfunksoldier
* The War on Drugs is Forcing Human Evolution icesickill 945 14 02/27/03 05:00 AM
by Azmodeus
* $10 milllion for one terrorist or for a homeless shelter Swami 738 9 06/15/04 05:09 PM
by luvdemshrooms
* the healthcare time bomb... Annapurna1 886 8 11/21/04 05:37 PM
by Great_Satan
* THE CONTROL PARADIGM - How to Control People chodamunky 606 3 10/17/02 07:54 PM
by chodamunky

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Enlil, ballsalsa
1,590 topic views. 0 members, 2 guests and 4 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Show Images Only | Sort by Score | Print Topic ]
Search this thread:

Copyright 1997-2024 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.036 seconds spending 0.008 seconds on 14 queries.