Home | Community | Message Board
You are not signed in.
Sign In New Account
Forum Index Search Posts Trusted Vendors Highlights Galleries FAQ User List Chat Store Random Growery


This site includes paid links. Please support our sponsors.

General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
Threaded Mode Threaded  Previous topic Previous  View all topics Index  Next topic Next 

Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

Jump to first unread post Pages: | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 |  [ show all ]
Re: We are all deluded [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #6910187 -

Huehuecoyotl said:
Quote:
I thought you were dicussing the fact that everything we belive is delusional.


That is part of it. Non-judgment is also part of it. Once you believe it...once you are invested, have faith, or drink the Koolaid, then you have formed a delusion.


So what if what you believe is true? This is what you will not answer. Lets say I believe that self-love and self acceptance is healing for oneself and the world and I have found this to be true by personal experience over and over. So now I'm going to trust in this "truth" I have found and live it out. Am I now delusional?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: We are all deluded [Re: dorkus]
    #6910210 -

dr_mandelbrot said:
What can we believe for sure? I am sincerely curious to know. I'd love to have something to grab on to. :smile:

eta: I love reading you guys debating. Through your pranksty dialogues it becomes so much easier to understand so many of these concepts or ways of wisdom.


Nice to see you my friend.:heart:

IMO we can know nothing for sure. Yet we will still hold beliefs to one degree or another. I believe love heals, yet I cannot know completely that this is true even if I have(what I believe to be)personal experience of it. But does my belief in this make me delusional? What if the belief is correct? Am I still delusional?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: We are all deluded [Re: Icelander]
    #6910220 -

Quote:
So what if what you believe is true?


We have only trial and error. This just gives an approximation...not fact. Buy it totally and you have sealed off the possibility of change. Your signature is:
I don't believe anything, but I have many suspicions.
Think about what that means. If one forms a model of how things work it can be useful, but transcending the model is the true path to freedom.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: We are all deluded [Re: Icelander]
    #6910228 -

Quote:
Yet we will still hold beliefs to one degree or another.


Dump your beliefs. How about just keeping in mind a few good rules of thumb? My brother is schizophrenic by societal definition and I often see in detail the process of delusion from formation to fruition. After understanding something of this process I see it daily in others and myself but to less of an extent. Most of what we hold to be true and dear is delusion.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: We are all deluded [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #6910242 -

Huehuecoyotl said:
Quote:
So what if what you believe is true?


We have only trial and error. This just gives an approximation...not fact. Buy it totally and you have sealed off the possibility of change. Your signature is:
I don't believe anything, but I have many suspicions.
Think about what that means. If one forms a model of how things work it can be useful, but transcending the model is the true path to freedom.


I have thought about what my sig means, that's why I have it there. I always leave the door open to being wrong and then go ahead and act on my suspicions or beliefs. Beliefs is what they are. They are tempered though by another belief of mine. That I am just too small to know what absolute truth is. Still I don't see myself as delusional just because I have a belief. I would see myself as delusional if I believed I had a corner on truth or knew anything for sure or continued to believe something in the face of contradictory evidence.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: We are all deluded [Re: Icelander]
    #6910275 -

Seeing yourself as delusional has many freedoms. We grant the mentally ill such freedoms daily. Why not have that respect for yourself? To have the freedom to realize that EVERYTHING you know is bullshit and can always stand some revision is awesome...to unconditionally accept that you are crazy as a shit house rat, but have the sobriety to change. The true spirit of the fluid warrior is in that idea, but that is one of my delusions...that I could ever begin to aspire to being such a man.

Quote:
His was the emptiness of a 'warrior-traveler', seasoned to the point where he doesn't take anything for granted; a warrior traveler who doesn't underestimate or overestimate anything; a quiet, disciplined fighter whose elegance is so extreme that no one, no matter how hard they try to look, will ever find the seam where all that complexity has come together.




--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: We are all deluded [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #6910300 -

Huehuecoyotl said:
Seeing yourself as delusional has many freedoms. We grant the mentally ill such freedoms daily. Why not have that respect for yourself? To have the freedom to realize that EVERYTHING you know is bullshit and can always stand some revision is awesome...to unconditionally accept that you are crazy as a shit house rat, but have the sobriety to change. The true spirit of the fluid warrior is in that idea, but that is one of my delusions...that I could ever begin to aspire to being such a man.

Quote:
His was the emptiness of a 'warrior-traveler', seasoned to the point where he doesn't take anything for granted; a warrior traveler who doesn't underestimate or overestimate anything; a quiet, disciplined fighter whose elegance is so extreme that no one, no matter how hard they try to look, will ever find the seam where all that complexity has come together.





The trouble I have is that your position seems contradictory. I don't want to just go along because I like you so much.;)

I don't believe that everything we know is Bullshit. It may not be the whole thing but that doesn't make it a complete lie (definition of Bullshit). If you are crazy as a shit house rat then you will not have any sobriety. I know you are just overstating the case to make a point. Just let go of the term delusional and we can agree on your points which I can mostly agree to and I think you know this because we have had this discussion in private and have agreed.

Anyway I'm just having fun with the debate here. I really think we agree on the basic issue.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: We are all deluded [Re: Icelander]
    #6910336 -

The reason I am using the terms crazy and delusional is because of the taboo in seeing ones self that way. We are not near so rational as we seem in public. State my contradictions. This is necessary for me to understand myself.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: We are all deluded *DELETED* [Re: Icelander]
    #6910349 -

Post deleted by dorkus

Reason for deletion: .

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: We are all deluded [Re: dorkus]
    #6910356 -

Hey that's so cool.:thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: We are all deluded [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #6910371 -

Huehuecoyotl said:
The reason I am using the terms crazy and delusional is because of the taboo in seeing ones self that way. We are not near so rational as we seem in public. State my contradictions. This is necessary for me to understand myself.


My taboo is in seeing myself as normal. Delusional and crazy are old friends. Of course we all(it seems) wear a mask that hides the thing we think makes us so unlovable and unacceptable.

Your contradictions are the same as mine only different.:lol: I believe I know your heart and it is a wonderful thing. That's why I enjoy going toe to toe with you here. I know you love me and when we disagree it is part of our learning together. There seems to be no guile or envy. That's when debate here is really the most fun. Somehow with you I can pull it off. I can remember a time when it wasn't so easy though.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: We are all deluded [Re: Icelander]
    #6910376 -

to the original poster, for i fail to have the patience to read the rest of this right now: you are perpetuating an illusion of the imperfection of life. the ego represents a seeming fracture in the fabric, but it is more like a divit in the grass that thinks there is nothing beyond itself. you are assuming and generalizing based on your own logic/reasoning/realizations/experiences/whatever that no human is at true peace with the transience and inseperability of its own energy juxtaposed against a vast infinite network of energy and consciousness. we should probably strive for inner peace, rather than a piece of some ever depleting pie.


--------------------
at this point i think we can be relatively certain seperation exists as a fallacy of finite perception, and the only barrier to infinite creativity is a preimposed notion of certainty and artificial conditioning. nothing is without origin

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: We are all deluded [Re: reflectedlight]
    #6910400 -

Quote:
i fail to have the patience to read the rest of this right now


Until you read the rest your comments are somewhat irrelevant.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: We are all deluded [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #6910435 -

Delusion is believing your interpretation of reality's mechanisms is the correct one and the only one. Philosophy's and concepts are prone to delusion because in reality there is no such thing as "Why?" only "How?" Certain information is true under all circumstances, in all moments, and is considered understanding or wisdom. Wisdom is knowledge that transcends delusion. Wise actions are said to help pull others out of their own self-delusion.

For example: how is being useful to others a form of delusion?

If delusion is as good as it gets, then how should we seek to transcend it? According to you, it isn't possible. According to me, it is... we're both probably wrong and the answer lies between you and me.


--------------------
As the life of a candle,
my wick will burn out.
But, the fire of my mind
shall beam into infinite.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: We are all deluded [Re: Icelander]
    #6910438 -



--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: We are all deluded [Re: psyka]
    #6910449 -

I agree with most of what you say here, but wisdom is also a manifestation of delusion, because wisdom is only your best guess and it is not universal. If you invest yourself totally into a perceived wisdom it becomes delusion.

Being useful to others could be a serious delusion. What if I joined the army (I used to be a soldier) and went to Iraq to persecute innocents....OR what if I joined al Quaida and sought to further their particular brand of cause?


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: We are all deluded [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #6910474 -

By being useful to others, I mean all walks of life with no exception.

Being useful to the army to persecute innocent people, is being useful only to the army and persecuting the innocent. How is that useful to the innocent? Being useful for the intent of sharing the common bond of joy and compassion is merely that... how is that being deluded in any form?

Certain things are always true, such as change. All things are in a constant state of fluctuation... this is true and the implications can be quite profound and lead one out of the state of delusion.


--------------------
As the life of a candle,
my wick will burn out.
But, the fire of my mind
shall beam into infinite.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: We are all deluded [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #6911565 -

Huehuecoyotl said:
Quote:
i fail to have the patience to read the rest of this right now


Until you read the rest your comments are somewhat irrelevant.


And why might that be so? He read your origional post and responded to that. I do that myself at times as it keeps my response direct to the origional thought. Often the rest are off topic anyway. :wink:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: We are all deluded *DELETED* [Re: Icelander]
    #6911622 -

Post deleted by dorkus

Reason for deletion: .

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: We are all deluded [Re: dorkus]
    #6911728 -

Just doin my thang.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Jump to top Pages: | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 |  [ show all ]

Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
Threaded Mode Threaded  Previous topic Previous  View all topics Index  Next topic Next 

Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* Guru Goldilocks and the Three Deluded Bears Ped 1,056 6 04/19/04 10:43 AM
by Anonymous
* The Most Outrageous Scenario
( 1 2 all )		 Swami 2,254 25 04/13/04 01:16 AM
by truekimbo2
* Neija (internal) martial arts.. any practitioniers?
( 1 2 all )		 Squatting_Otter 4,421 31 04/16/12 09:00 AM
by Icelander
* Salvia VS internal dialog
( 1 2 3 4 all )		 Icelander 6,703 72 10/31/06 01:41 PM
by Icelander
* Happiness is internal
( 1 2 all )		 Grapefruit 2,667 30 04/09/10 11:02 AM
by deCypher
* Should an international language be encouraged?
( 1 2 3 all )		 Epigallo 3,632 40 08/05/07 02:50 PM
by BlueCoyote
* The internal struggle which we call conciousness. Droz 685 3 06/22/07 04:14 PM
by Icelander
* Internal Conflict and the search for peace...
( 1 2 all )		 lucid 3,352 27 12/15/03 12:22 PM
by Sclorch

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Middleman, DividedQuantum
3,633 topic views. 0 members, 28 guests and 22 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Show Images Only | Sort by Score | Print Topic ]
Search this thread:

Copyright 1997-2026 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.028 seconds spending 0.007 seconds on 16 queries.