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Registered: 02/09/02
Posts: 63
Loc: Planet Vegita
Last seen: 14 years, 7 months
Just another mad scientist.......
    #648637 - 05/27/02 09:52 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

Normally I post in "Mushie Cultivation", but I dont think these are beginer questions. All input will be apreciated.

OK, I did the PF, ya sure, time 2 case. And I have come up with an experiment. We (my friend and I, partners in crime) have a LARGE tupperware (60-72 quarts, cant remember; and its about 2 1/2' x 5') that we are going to bury in an area where NO ONE GOES (been checked) to case in. From what I have seen & read, ppl grow shrooms outside as easy as inside, so no big deal right?

Been reading for over 2 weeks now, trying to prepare a method and I think I got it. We are going to bury this large container to surface level. Bottom layer will consist of a mixture of Dung (cow, horse, whatever; but I am trying to get elephant dung) and wheat or rice straw. I cant find any posts or tek's on dung/straw mixes for casings so I am playing by ear. This should fill about 1/2 of the tupperware or more. Boiled bottles of sterile water w/ holes for seepage over time will sit on the bottom of the mix, all I read is "water this" & "water that"; so this is my answer to a lack of water situation. The next layer (on top of the dung/straw) is the Substrate itself. I haven't seen much mention of where or how far the primordia formation should sit, so I am guessing here. Next comes the "icing" of the case, what would normally be the top layer. Another mixture of dung/straw over the substrate chunks. I heard it is supposed to be thin, so it will be. The top layer is about an 1/2 or 1" of sand. The hole we dig will be filled w/ wet perlite so that the tupp sits nicely. I was figuring a way to keep the tupp insulated and not touching raw earth, this is the best I could come up with.

If you think it is a waste of time already, just PM me back with a "no" and ya don't gatta read anymore, cuz here come the questions. =)

1) I am guessing I have to take environmental factors into play since it is outside. I read one place that the Dung/Straw mix has to be pasteurized or sterilized. Then I read that the selection of specific microbial groups by mycelial metabolites is an excellent example of symbiosis. These same bacteria give the casing a natural resistance to competitors. In this respect, a sterilized casing lacks beneficial microorganisms and has little resistance to contaminants. So, the fact that I would be placing something so sterile outside, it would be like "inviting" anything with more than one cell to "come on in and join the party" killing everything. So can u make up these ppl's minds? Does it have to be pas'izd/ster'izd for outside?

2) Like I said, I cant find any links on dung/straw tek's. A regular case, may it be WHATEVER mixture most likely needs a buffer agent to counter act the acidic effect of other casing materials. Such as peat, lime, whatever. Dose this still hold true for dung/straw? If so, what buffers are necessary? I am going with Limestone Flour for its low magnesium content.

3) Moisture is a necessity for casing, so are the water resivours @ the bottom a good idea, or the mix should hold it's own? (remember, its outside)

4) I read all types of diff contam warnings for casing. How NOTHING should be getting into it, because it could and would compromise the entire thing. That is where the top layer of sand comes in. I read that some ppl use sand in their casings anyway. (as I mix I guess) The top layer of sand should keep most air and ground particles out. I figure that it will, I hope. I don't know how much a thin layer of sand is going to deter a million flies from 20-30 pounds of wet dung and straw, but it is the best I could come up with. Sand (dry) is loose and airy anyway, so I hope a thin layer wont stop the mushie's from pushing up. So, is it a good idea or a bad one?

5) I read that a regular (indoor) casing should be kept clear of all decaying vegetable matter because this is ground zero for mold. That will be mighty hard if it is outside. We planned on throwing lots and lots of pricker bushes around it so that no one dare go into such a pile of "ouch", and to hide 1' PESA's. Still think its a good idea? And if cutting em down and putting em around is the problem, could we just uproot some and replant them around it? Also, I saw someone using dead leaves to help their mushie's case outside. WTF?? Isn't that a contradiction to most everything I read??

6) I know casings need diff types of humidity & temp for diff stages of growth, I cant really keep any of that under control, just got to leave it up to mother earth to grow me some shrooms. But I can plan WHEN to put em in. I know u are a west coaster, so I don't know what yer weather is like. But from living on the east coast all my life, I have picked up a few things that tend to happen around now. It has been unseasonably cold here, more so than any year I can remember. But i also remember; it comes randomly, that nature fluctuates over here HARD-CORE. It will be nice like it is now, then BAM! hot as fuck (89-101F) for 2 weeks, then back to nice, ahhhh. I think it is still to cold out to do this yet, and get any kind of yield. But when the 2 hot weeks come (Ozone hole I always figured) we should do it that very day the heat starts. So if it goes back to a little chilly, there might actually have been enough time & warmth for the shrooms to get their bareings and begin. Sound right?

7) Pollution..... We live in, well, considerably close it most of the major pollutant places on the east. Fucking gatta make room for progress, as we slowly kill ourselves! I hope this wont cause anything to go wrong, what do u think? Or am I just being to paranoid?

Well, that's it for now. I feel like there are more questions, but my brain shut down about 20 mins ago. Now it is just screaming for sleep. But I guarantee there will be more.

Does any of this sound possible? I guess I can take a margin of %70 "yes" and %30 "waste of time & money". I just hope ya can give me that answer first. 70-30 seems worth it to me, even if it doesn't work. If it does turn out to be a waste before I even get started, I can always turn my attention to how to case INDOORS, but for reasons of stealth and room Dung/Straw wont be possible. I thought this would be the biggest and best way to do a casing and get shrooms like BOOM.

Wat cha think?


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the dancer

Registered: 05/24/02
Posts: 238
Loc: nzl
Last seen: 11 years, 2 months
Re: Just another mad scientist....... [Re: XiC]
    #648691 - 05/27/02 10:36 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

okay, your idea about the water bottles leaking slowly into the bottom, this in short is one of the most funny and stupid things i have ever seen, it reminds me of my friends high school attempt to make alcohol from fermenting apples under some bushes at a neighbourhood park far from the inquisitive dissaproving glances of his parents....I'll never forget him walking down the road with this expensive glass distillery that he'd bought and constructed, and seeing it smash into a thousand pieces on the ground...
anyway that idea is not going to go according to your plan i know this much, what would be more effective is if you had tubes going down there, where you could pore water down into your holey bottles, then attach a hand pump to squeeze it in to the depths of your makeshift underground mushroom shelter... even then, this is a very f. up way of doing things... also, you would want some sort of cover to keep it humid in there... thats without the sterility issue which would probably void everything, although dont take my word from it as I am insane ;]

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Registered: 12/18/01
Posts: 7,262
Re: Just another mad scientist....... [Re: XiC]
    #648693 - 05/27/02 10:38 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

Hey man,
Heres some of my 2 cents, see if anyone else agrees or disagrees with me.

First off, where do you live. Secondly, the box aint gunna cut it. The box is useless, could cause contamination, and doesn't allow the natural movement whithin the earth. Third, your going to have to colonize your dung and straw first, not make layers.

The best way to do this is starting it off in your house. Putting your substrate on a LAYER of dung / straw is not going to work. It would be best if you mixed it into a 50%/50% dung/straw mixture first, spawn it, colonize it, and then use that large amount of spawn.

Fourth, why are you wanting to use elephant dung? Cubies grow naturally on cow manure.

Fifth, you're in nature, youre not going to need a water bottle with holes in it, it would not work as planned. It would just open a threat to contamination.

OK, Let me just say this. The easiest way of doing this is:
1) Spawn a whole bunch of dung/straw with your grain
2) colonize this, and wait till its 100% done.
3) dig a 3-8" deep rectangle or hole, probably in a semi-shady area.
4) Dump your dung/straw into the hole, and use some damp wheat straw on top to keep moist. Water with a sprayer or something not like just a bottle of water as that is much too heavy. Keep that straw on top moist to create a desirable miccroclimate for the primordia to form.

Ill post again with your other questions...

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Registered: 12/18/01
Posts: 7,262
Re: Just another mad scientist....... [Re: XiC]
    #648699 - 05/27/02 10:54 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

>> 1) I am guessing I have to take environmental factors into play since it is outside. I read one place that the Dung/Straw mix has to be pasteurized or sterilized.

You have to pasturize, sterlizing will kill of the nutrients.

2) Dont worry about your casing layer acidity. I dont think it plays as big as a role as your other methods. Its not going to be that detrimental to the growth. A casing will be pretty much useless outside. Thats why hte straw is a good method.

3) If you pasturize your dung/straw, it will retain all the water it needs. Keep a moist layer of straw on the surface to keep things even more moist during the fomration of mushrooms

4) Bad idea. I have never heard of anyone using sand in their casing. A casing is supposed to keep the moist air IN, not out. It has to have good water retaining abilities. You can put a casing on, but what will it really do in the outside? Its going to most likely dry up. This is why I am saying to use the straw.

5) Contamination at the surface will not be as big of an issue. The casing is not ground zero for mold. Its supposed to keep out contams. It has no nutritional value. Your outside too..its going to be hard to get contams outside. Things work with eatchother outside.

6) There are different levels of rH because you are trying to mimic the natural envoirnment. In the shit, the rh is high, and in the tall damp grasslands, the humidity will be high near the ground as well. Once the mushroom gets out of this protective area, (in this case the moistened straw which ive been saying a lot lately), it hits drier air. Humidity fluxuation is not going ot be an issue. Its just going to be an issue to get the things to pin. (They do require a higher humidity)

7) Umm.

Remember, your outside. Using a plastic box is not going to work. Having a substrate layer is not going to work. And alot of other things are unfortuently not going to work.

THere are some outdoors teks which Ive read. Ive tried to keep things simple, but if you have any more quesitons ill try to answer.

Basically you'll going to want to pasturize your straw and dung mix in a laundry bag or pillow case(s) in big pot. Get your temp with a candy thermometer or roast thermometer to 160-170. Pasturize for 1hr.

Drain, squeeze out extra moisture. Spawn in your colonized grain into a rubbermaid container. Keep things dark warm and humid. Once colonized put into a hole outside, and keep the moist wheat straw on top moist.

Ive seen a guy use perlite as the bottom layer, but I dont think thats necessary.

In the beginning, im goign to have to say to get a transulcent box or something to put over it with some holes. It will make a mini-green house for your bedding and keep the humidity high for pinning. Pinning needs higher humidity.

Hope that helps.

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Hola Amigos!
Registered: 05/04/00
Posts: 511
Loc: The Desert In The Spring
Last seen: 12 years, 10 months
Re: Just another mad scientist....... [Re: deepr]
    #648942 - 05/28/02 04:52 AM (14 years, 8 months ago)

"Water bottles leaking slowly " is not at all stupid!
Gardening supply companies even sell attachments for water bottles to do a similar thing for plants-kind of a low tech drip-irrigation thing.

I really don't have time to read the whole mad-scientist scheme and comment,but keep on scheming!

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one ancient mutha
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Registered: 02/21/02
Posts: 1,878
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Re: Just another mad scientist....... [Re: XiC]
    #649016 - 05/28/02 06:27 AM (14 years, 8 months ago)

one major problem , is if its in a plastic tub, one good rain, you will be flooded out

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