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Offlinedr0mni
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A pro-war, pro-hatred email and responses to it.
    #6016574 - 08/31/06 10:19 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

Me and my sis recently received an email from our mother containing a letter from a woman named Pam Foster to her soldier relative. The following is the letter, and then my own, and my sisters response to it.


>
> Subject: Do you feel this way?
>
>
>
>
> IN PERSPECTIVE
> WOW...is this laying it on the line or what?
> The lady who wrote this letter is Pam Foster of
> Pamela Foster and
> Associates in Atlanta. She's been in business since
> 1980 doing interior
> design and home planning. She recently wrote a
> letter to a family member
> serving in Iraq....... Read it!
>
> "Are we fighting a war on terror or aren't we? Was
> it or was it not
> started by Islamic people who brought it to our
> shores on September 11,
> 2001?
> Were people from all over the world, mostly
> Americans, not brutally
> murdered that day, in downtown Manhattan , across
> the Potomac from our
> nation's capitol and in a field in Pennsylvania ?
> Did nearly three thousand men, women and children
> die a horrible,
> burning or crushing death that day, or didn't they?
> And I'm supposed to care that a copy of the Koran
> was "desecrated" when an
> overworked American soldier kicked it or got it wet?
>
> Well, I don't. I don't care at all.
> I'll start caring when Osama bin Laden turns
> himself in and repents for
> incinerating all those innocent people on 9/11.
> I'll care about the Koran when the fanatics in the
> Middle East start
> caring about the Holy Bible, the mere possession of
> which is a crime in
> Saudi Arabia .
> Before his welcome demise, I would have cared when
> Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
> would tell the world he was sorry for hacking off
> Nick Berg's head while Berg
> screamed through his gurgling slashed throat.
> I'll care when the cowardly so-called "insurgents"
> in Iraq come out and
> fight like men instead of disrespecting their own
> religion by hiding in
> mosques.
> I'll care when the mindless zealots who blow
> themselves up in search of
> nirvana care about the innocent children within
> range of their suicide bombs.
> I'll care when the American media stops pretending
> that their First
> Amendment liberties are somehow derived from
> international law instead of
> the United States Constitution's Bill of Rights.
>
> In the meantime, when I hear a story about a brave
> marine roughing up an
> Iraqi terrorist to obtain information, know this: I
> don't care.
> When I see a fuzzy photo of a pile of naked Iraqi
> prisoners who have
> been humiliated in what amounts to a college-hazing
> incident, rest
> assured that I don't care.
> When I see a wounded terrorist get shot in the
> head when he is told not to
> move because he might be booby-trapped, you can take
> it to the bank that I
> don't care.
> When I hear that a prisoner, who was issued a
> Koran and a prayer mat,
> and fed "special" food that is paid for by my tax
> dollars, is
> complaining that his holy book is being
> "mishandled," you can absolutely
> believe in your heart of hearts that I don't care.
> And oh, by the way, I've noticed that sometimes
> it's spelled "Koran" and other
> times "Quran." Well, Jimmy Crack Corn and ---- you
> guessed it - - - I don't
> care ! ! ! ! !
> If you agree with this viewpoint, pass this on to
> all your e-mail
> friends. Sooner or later, it'll get to the people
> responsible for this
> ridiculous behavior! If you don't agree, then by
> all means hit the
> delete button.
> Should you choose the latter, then please don't
> complain when more
> atrocities committed by radical Muslims happen here
> in our great
> country.
> I am not deleting this, I am sending it on, but
> only after I add:
>
>
> --"Some people spend an entire lifetime wondering
> if they made a
> difference in the world. But, the Marines don't have
> that problem."
> -- Ronald Reagan
>
> I have another quote that I would like to add
> AND..I hope you forward
> this such as I have.
> "If we ever forget that we're One Nation Under
> God, then we will be a
> nation gone under." also by... Ronald Reagan
>
>
> I say let's rub all of our soldiers bullets in pigs
> blood and end this nasty war.
>

My sis' response:

Subject: Why I do not "Feel this Way"

Why?

For one, this woman isn't in any form of perspective besides her own. A
small
group of radical extremist were the ones to attacked the WTC. So, No
this was
not brought by the "Islamic People". Yes there were about 3,000 people
who died
in the WTC attacks, but since the intervention in Iraq we have killed
about
45,613 of their people. We are FAR beyond 'an eye for an eye'. Not only
that,
but these are not 45,613 guilty terrorist these are CIVILIANS like me
and you!
The president has said himself that Iraq and Sadam had nothing to do
with the
9-11 attacks. Then why are we killing so many innocent people? So YES I
do
expect you to care when our policy is to blow up and entire city
because we
think there just might be a terrorist in it, absurd! If you want this
in
perspective, imagine that your neighbor is guilty of killing someone,
according
to the way we treat these "terrorists" you and your entire block,
actually
within 20 blocks of you would be blown to smitherines - and you may not
have
even met your neighbor. I must say I'd believe if she cares about
suicide
bombers blowing up children, perhaps she should care about our armies
killing
more children than a suicide bomber could ever reach.

If America expects to be treated like the all caring country that it
claims to
be, respecting others choices in religions and not kicking their Koran
in the
mud should be at least be some kind of priority. Perhaps using the
saying "treat
others as you'd like to be treated". As for the incidents at Abu
Ghraib, how
would this woman feel if it was our soldiers who were being forced into
homosexual poses by the Iraqi soldiers? I'm sure this woman would maybe
care a
little more. As far as she is concerned, America is the only country
who's
people should obviously be treated fairly, and have their religions
respected -
I might just say this is the most perspective I've ever had anyone give
on the
subject, Ha! For what reason is our Bible any more important than their
Koran?
Or our soldiers any more important than their civilians?

This woman proves only her ignorance with this statement and was
responding only
out of anger. I do not blame her for being angry with what is going on
right
now, but remember anger is what got us into this to begin with. One
man's
freedom fighter is another man's terrorist.

and I guess I shall end my rebuttle with quotes as well....

"Everybody's worried about stopping terrorism. Well, there's a really
easy way:
stop participating in it."
-Noam Chomsky
"If the Nuremberg laws were applied, then every post-war American
president
would have been hanged."
-Noam Chomsky



Perhaps some links if you really want to learn about the war
http://thinkprogress.org/2006/08/21/bush-on-911/
http://www.iraqbodycount.net/database/
http://www.antiwar.com/news/?articleid=2444
http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?ItemID=7933


If you want to send me pro-war, pro-violent, pro-ignorance emails,
expect more
anti-war emails from me.



My response:

We may be fighting a war, but it is first and foremost a war of IDEAS! That is what makes it so powerful.

Americans tend to have an extremely short memory when it comes to history and our governments involvement in world affairs. Was it not our missles and bombs that were used in the illegal wars that Isreal waged against the Palistinians? Have we forgotten that these people have been evicted from their land and coralled into ghettos in order to create a "Jewish Homeland"?

Pam Foster says she doesn't care. And that is the problem, people don't care! They'd rather be ignorant to the dynamic aspects of history, and instead divide the world into black and white, only caring about our own suffering while scorning that of others!

Our government profits from weapons sales so that Isreal can bomb refugee shelters containing no militants. Our media tells the tale of the kidnapping of the Isreali soldiers, but fails to report the abduction of two Gaza CIVILIANS by the Isreali government two days prior. Because we'd rather believe that Isreal is the Good Guy and the Palistinians are Satan worshipping terrorists rather than open our minds to the possibility that both sides are wrong and that our government feeds this cycle of violence instead of promoting peace.

Pam Foster complains that she will start to "care when the American media stops pretending that their First Amendment liberties are somehow derived from international law instead of the United States Constitution's Bill of Rights."

Well Pam, when our Founding Fathers wrote the Bill of Rights, there is a reason that they didn't call it the Bill of Privaleges. They believed that "these are self evident" rights of all human beings. They believed that these rights were given by God, and that no person or government could take them away from truly free individuals!

But we don't believe that anymore. Now we believe that any Iraqi citizen who owns an AK-47 and is even SUSPECTED of being a "terrorist" can be locked in a prison indefinitely without any charges being filed, and no due process given. Most of these prisons are not run by our troops, but by the new Iraqi government (you know, since we are trying to give them control of their own nations' security). Is there any reason to believe that these people aren't running their prisons in the same way that Saddam Hussein did, or how Saudi Arabia does?

They are RIGHTS, not privaleges granted only to tax paying Americans!

Yes, there is much religious intolerance in many Muslim societies, and it is a damn shame that three groups of people who all claim to worship the One and Only Almighty God of Abraham, have forgotten that they are all Brothers and Sisters. What we are watching now is the living myth of Cain and Abel! And it is the GREATEST SIN!

It may sound like I am condemning America and Isreal, but I am not trying to pick sides. What I'm trying to do is demonstrate an alternative view of the world to you so that you can realize that there are more truths out there than the ones which our Corperate owned (and by proxy, State-Run) media sells us, and which come to life in Pam Fosters letter.

So if you want to encourage open and honest debate, communication, and understanding so that we might actually live in peace before our grandchildren our born, then foward THIS and allow everyone who reads it a chance to listen and learn. Attach your OWN thoughts and your OWN voice. The only way we will reach peace is if we make an effort to ACTUALLY LISTEN TO ONE ANOTHER, rathing that limiting discussion to binary debate.

If you want to promote war and hatred, you can be like Pam Foster and not care. You can imagine that the world is a simplistic duality, and you can shut your heart out, so that the suffering of people you don't know and will never meet doesn't make you want to cry!

We are all the Children of God, and we must learn how to truly love like God. God is capable of loving even murderers and rapists because HE/SHE/IT is beyond hatred, and revenge. Only UNCONDITIONAL GOD-LIKE LOVE can defeat hatred and suffering!

"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind."
~Ghandi

"Beyond ideas of "Right" and "Wrong" there is a field,
I will meet you there.
When souls lie down in that grass
the world is too full to talk about.
Ideas, words, and even the phrase "each other"
don't make any sense."
~ Rumi

"To overcome evil with good is good, to resist evil by evil is evil."
~ Mohammed





I really fucking hate chain mail...


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InvisibleEntheogenicPeace
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--- [Re: dr0mni]
    #6016618 - 08/31/06 10:38 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

---


Edited by EntheogenicPeace (11/27/14 06:19 PM)


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InvisibleEntheogenicPeace
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--- [Re: dr0mni]
    #6016643 - 08/31/06 10:46 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

---


Edited by EntheogenicPeace (11/27/14 06:20 PM)


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Offlinedr0mni
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Re: A pro-war, pro-hatred email and responses to it. [Re: EntheogenicPeace]
    #6016673 - 08/31/06 10:56 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

i have to admit though that she should re-word at least one sentence, the one about the Iraqi death toll. While coalition forces are responsible for a large portion of those 40k+ deaths, an even larger portion is due to civil and ethnic conflicts. Of course these conflicts are only facilitated by our destablizing presence...

like I said, it's not black and white.


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InvisibleEntheogenicPeace
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--- [Re: dr0mni]
    #6016690 - 08/31/06 11:04 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

---


Edited by EntheogenicPeace (11/27/14 06:21 PM)


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Invisibleroby000
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Re: A pro-war, pro-hatred email and responses to it. *DELETED* [Re: EntheogenicPeace]
    #6016844 - 09/01/06 12:08 AM (14 years, 8 months ago)

Post deleted by roby000

Reason for deletion: s


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InvisibleEntheogenicPeace
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--- [Re: roby000]
    #6016887 - 09/01/06 12:25 AM (14 years, 8 months ago)

---


Edited by EntheogenicPeace (11/27/14 06:21 PM)


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Invisibleroby000
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Re: A pro-war, pro-hatred email and responses to it. [Re: EntheogenicPeace]
    #6016894 - 09/01/06 12:27 AM (14 years, 8 months ago)

wow taking a quote out of context, you learn that from mike moore or did you do it all by yourself?


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: A pro-war, pro-hatred email and responses to it. [Re: roby000]
    #6017057 - 09/01/06 01:20 AM (14 years, 8 months ago)

Actually, it is my business who and how we go to war because the backlash on out country caused by it directly affects me.


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Invisibleroby000
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Re: A pro-war, pro-hatred email and responses to it. *DELETED* [Re: Redstorm]
    #6017073 - 09/01/06 01:27 AM (14 years, 8 months ago)

Post deleted by roby000

Reason for deletion: s


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: A pro-war, pro-hatred email and responses to it. [Re: roby000]
    #6017088 - 09/01/06 01:36 AM (14 years, 8 months ago)

If the guy doesn't have the patience and discipline to behave himself over there, he shouldn't be there to begin with. That was not an accident that happened during a firefight, it was a lack of order and discipline that led to the act committed in that prison.


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InvisibleVvellum
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Re: A pro-war, pro-hatred email and responses to it. [Re: roby000]
    #6017093 - 09/01/06 01:38 AM (14 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

ok so you need to know every dumb dirty detail no matter how insignifigant?




A well-informed nation is an essential component of a healthy democracy.

Quote:

if one service member acts out or doesnt act like we want him to it should be televised and exploited to create propaganda and doubt in the american public?




Yes. All information (save national security secrets - and troop disconduct is not a matter of national security) should be available to the public. If you do not like the unavoidable spin of that particular newscoverage, you have all the right to read another news outlet for a balanced perspective.

Quote:

the media does have a right to keep our goverment in check, but it doesnt have a right to be a biased antiwar anti US soapbox.




Yes, they do. That right is in the Bill of Rights.

Quote:

if you are SERIOUSLY upset at how things are going by all means talk to an armed forces recruiter and do your part. if you think you have more patience than the poor guy over there, than go.





...and what of those who absolutely disagree with the war and choose to have zero part and choose not to be a brainless hired thug for the federal government? Do those people have no right to speak?


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: A pro-war, pro-hatred email and responses to it. [Re: dr0mni]
    #6017516 - 09/01/06 07:36 AM (14 years, 8 months ago)

> "If we ever forget that we're One Nation Under God, then we will be a nation gone under." also by... Ronald Reagan

Sorry to say, but we have been one nation not under god for much, much longer than we have been one nation under god. Around 52 years under god versus 178 years not under god. I personally think the first 178 years not under god were much better than the following 52 years.


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.


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OfflineRoker
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Re: A pro-war, pro-hatred email and responses to it. [Re: Seuss]
    #6017536 - 09/01/06 07:52 AM (14 years, 8 months ago)

And americans wonder why the rest of the world hates them.

And Seuss Americans were no better in the first 178 years, look at the genocide of native north americans, look at the spanish wars - the adventures in south east asia and china, look at the bully boy tactics of "the great white fleet" in the early part of the last century.

The only thing the current generation of americans excell at is self deception.

Your history is one of war and opression, not freedom and liberty.


--------------------


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OfflineSirTripAlot
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Re: A pro-war, pro-hatred email and responses to it. [Re: Roker]
    #6017593 - 09/01/06 09:03 AM (14 years, 8 months ago)

Bio stated:

and what of those who absolutely disagree with the war and choose to have zero part and choose not to be a brainless hired thug for the federal government? Do those people have no right to speak?


Are you refering to people within the Armed Forces? If so,
These "brainless hired thugs" protect your ass.


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing.
Only I will remain.”


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OfflineThe_Red_Crayon
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Re: A pro-war, pro-hatred email and responses to it. [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #6017626 - 09/01/06 09:35 AM (14 years, 8 months ago)

I have a certain respect for soldiers or veterans. It is definitely not fun getting shot at and dodgeing bullets. One could say it sucks royally. A soldier just follows orders. He isnt going to do anything unless ordered too. The real people who should be labeled jerks are the politicians like rumsfeld and the civilian pentagon pencil pushers.

I still think we should consider cutting our losses in Iraq. It is destabilizing the entire region and with no exit plan and no end in sight it will only strengthen the instability. Do not underestimate the Mujahadeen they are like a ant pile and they can easily swarm.


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: A pro-war, pro-hatred email and responses to it. [Re: roby000]
    #6018370 - 09/01/06 02:26 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

roby000 said:
she has A RIGHT to be angry and to let hatred replace her fear.




She might have a RIGHT to be an irrational lunatic, but that does not mean it is justifiable, beneficial, or becoming of a allegedly conscious human being. :rolleyes:

Quote:


  id rather have a suspicious untrusting america then the america we all witnessed in new orleans.




Oh, you mean the America in which the leaders and organizers of this country were more concerned about a fictional war on terror and there own petty bullshit than to have been appropriately planned and able to execute a prevention and rescue operation in response to a natural disaster? :lol:

Quote:


and fuck, if hadgie next door is a cool cat then by all means let him chill




There is no person on this planet named "Hadgie", so I suspect the subtle scent of racism or religious prejudice. :nonono:

Quote:


but im not going to give a SHIT if a bunch of accused war criminals get upity becuase a marine pissed on a book.




It's your choice whether or not you are going to be concerned about something, but the fact remains that, if a U.S. Marine was pissing on a book, then that Marine is obviously a fucking moron, possibly as much as a lunatic as the woman. If he was unable to conduct himself like a human being (hey, its not that fucking hard), then he should be locked up as well.

Quote:

 
its none of YOUR buisness as a civilian on what goes on in war.




False.

Quote:


  ARE YOU A SOILDER?  then shut the fuck up.  if you think the war could be going better then goin up and DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT.




Good suggestion. I think I will start by enlisting in the Marines and pissing on a book. :lol: :smirk:

Quote:


  holding a sign on a busy street dosent help.  if you want to protest a war dont wait until after its started.




I don't recall reading that one in the Big Book Of Rules. :shrug:

:earth: :sun: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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Offlinedr0mni
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Re: A pro-war, pro-hatred email and responses to it. [Re: fireworks_god]
    #6021283 - 09/02/06 05:31 AM (14 years, 8 months ago)

wow, you all can't get away from personal attacks.

I don't think a single post in this thread didn't include the words "you", "think", and "would rather"

none of you have contributed to constuctive debate. No wonder our nation is so fucking polarized!

maybe I'll try to lead by example.

"but im not going to give a SHIT if a bunch of accused war criminals get upity becuase a marine pissed on a book."

the only problem is that many of the people who are being locked up in these prisons aren't necessarily "war criminals" or "terrorists". they are civilians who are being locked up and tortured because of "alleged" crimes. Few have actually been proven guilty or even convicted.


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OfflinePhred
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Re: A pro-war, pro-hatred email and responses to it. [Re: dr0mni]
    #6021709 - 09/02/06 11:20 AM (14 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

the only problem is that many of the people who are being locked up in these prisons aren't necessarily "war criminals" or "terrorists".




Which prisons? Specifics, please.




Phred


--------------------


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