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Jesus wasn't a scientist - the bible in context
    #5608743 -

Recently saw the Darwin exhibit at the Natural History Museum in Manhattan, and was fascinated to see how little the "controversy" over the debate about evolution has changed in the last two centuries. I was raised by Methodists, and am currently not a christian, but the evolution debate was never present in the churches I attended. It is amazing to me that people attack Darwin's theory of evolution. It got me to thinking about why fundamentalist christians feel the need to only interpret the bible in a literal way.

Maybe the most significant fact that is ignored by creationists as they defend the bible is the fact of historical context. Both the Old Testament and the New Testament were written in a period before objectivity was considered the highest form of knowledge and truth. In addition, both testaments were written in a period when only a tiny minority of the population was educated, and could read or write. I don't think most creationsists would dispute either of these facts.

So isn't it obvious that the bible, by neccesity, would describe the story of creation in simple terms that the average person at the time could understand? Isn't it also safe to assume that the no one at the time, neither the authors of the bible nor the readers, were interested in describing an objective truth about how the world came about? The bible was written in an era when fables and poetry were the primary means of understanding everything. The simplified story of creation in genesis is an elegantly simple fable that underlines the most important themes of humanity: the struggle between good and evil, the tension between man and women, the creation of civilization, the rift between humanity's intellect and its unending thirst for spiritual connection.

In other words I think not only did the authors of Genesis not intend for their audience to take the story literally, but given the era they weren't even able to conceive that their book would be read as if it were scientific fact. Genesis works beautifully as a metaphor.

I think creationists make the mistake of not recognizing the difference between now and then. Today, objective fact is everything. Literal proof is important, and literal definitions are important. It is the grounds for debate and progress in our society and has been since the Renaissance...OBJECTIVITY. But this wasn't always true, in fact it used to be the opposite. Creationists are trying to be two things: Objectivists and Christians. However unlike mystic Christians or Quakers who believe the personal experience of God is the ultimate spiritual experience (and therefore it doesn't really matter if the bible is correct or not about anything and see no contradiction in Darwin's theory), Creationists seem to believe that following the word of God IN THE SAME MANNER AS A PHYSICIST WOULD FOLLOW A TEXTBOOK is the ultimate spiritual experience.

Does anyone else perceive this contradiction? Any Creationists care to rebutt?


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:hst:
Society in every form is a blessing,
but government at its best is but a necessary evil 
- Thomas Paine

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Re: Jesus wasn't a scientist - the bible in context [Re: gluke bastid]
    #5608758 -

It really pisses me off to see what Christianity has become. You're absolutely right: Jesus was not a scientist, nor did he claim to be. In fact, he said nothing about how the world was created. I really think Christians today are missing the point when they try to use their religion to block the progress of science. That has nothing to do with Jesus' message, and I think he would hate to see this bullshit done in his name.


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Re: Jesus wasn't a scientist - the bible in context [Re: Silversoul]
    #5608825 -

Silversoul said:
Jesus was not a scientist, nor did he claim to be.  In fact, he said nothing about how the world was created.  I really think Christians today are missing the point when they try to use their religion to block the progress of science.  That has nothing to do with Jesus' message, and I think he would hate to see this bullshit done in his name.


I agree, although I probably should have changed the name of this post. It's not really about the New Testament as much as it is about Genesis.  :smirk: But I do like to point out to Christians that a lot of what he preached really takes away any significance other books of the bible have, especially if one interprets those books literally.


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:hst:
Society in every form is a blessing,
but government at its best is but a necessary evil 
- Thomas Paine

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Re: Jesus wasn't a scientist - the bible in context [Re: gluke bastid]
    #5608972 -

many good points, but I believe the main reason is that generations and generations have not only lived by these standards for hundreds of years, but many even owe their (mental / physical) survival to religion.

Quote:
The bible was written in an era when fables and poetry were the primary means of understanding everything. The simplified story of creation in genesis is an elegantly simple fable that underlines the most important themes of humanity: the struggle between good and evil, the tension between man and women, the creation of civilization, the rift between humanity's intellect and its unending thirst for spiritual connection.


while i certainly agree that the bible when viewed literally is a dumbed-down version of things unexplained, I also believe religious texts (note: NOT the bible, since it has been reinterpreted over and over) contain immense amounts of knowledge.

what what the heck do i know?  :rolleyes:


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No statements made in any post or message by myself should be construed to mean that I am now, or have ever been, participating in or considering participation in any activities in violation of any local, state, or federal laws. All posts are works of fiction.

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Re: Jesus wasn't a scientist - the bible in context [Re: gluke bastid]
    #5609126 -

Remember that the Fundamentalist world view in Christianity, Judaism or Islam seeks to place humankind under a theocracy - a government of GOD (as interpreted through their respective scriptures). Not only is such a world view non-scientific and non-objective, it is non-progressive. Meanwhile, mystical, cosmic, non-historical faiths like much of Hindu culture produced the Ayurvedic system of medicine and surgery at the time that the Semitic cultures were living entirely through 'faith.' Indian philosophical dualism was seen in a global context which embodied spiritual insights into the psychophysical being of man, while pursuing the Union with GOD as the highest good. Indian culture also lived by their myths, yet they were scientific in their spiritual practices as well as in their medical and mechanical advances.

It would seem that only the mystics among the Peoples of the Book have transcended the primitive need to obey a glorified superego in liew of GOD. Metaphor, midrash, allegory and symbol escape the majority of humankind, unfortunately.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: Jesus wasn't a scientist - the bible in context [Re: gluke bastid]
    #5609208 -

gluke bastid said:
It is amazing to me that people attack Darwin's theory of evolution.


You've just defined dogma.
Dogma is when someone like you is amazed by people who doubt the ideas he believes in

Don't you see that both sides of the argument are pretty much the same. The one side was raised being brainwashed by the Bible, while the other side has been brainwashed by what teachers toled them.

But that's just how people are, and that's why people do not deseve knowledge of any kind.


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I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

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Re: Jesus wasn't a scientist - the bible in context [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #5609350 -

OldWoodSpecter said:
You've just defined dogma.
Dogma is when someone like you is amazed by people who doubt the ideas he believes in

Don't you see that both sides of the argument are pretty much the same. The one side was raised being brainwashed by the Bible, while the other side has been brainwashed by what teachers toled them.



Dogma is when people believe in a rule or law after it has ceased to be effective or applicable.

I should have modified my sentence to read that I'm amazed that people attack Darwin's theory of evolution in favor of literally thinking that God made everything in seven days and women are all descendents of Eve who was just Adam's rib. It's not that I mock the story, it's just that I think the story wasn't written to be interpreted literally. And I don't think that it was originally. I think the literal fundamentalist interpretation is poorly named, as it is actually a new development.

Incidentally I don't believe in brainwashing in the sense that you are using the term.


--------------------
:hst:
Society in every form is a blessing,
but government at its best is but a necessary evil 
- Thomas Paine

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Re: Jesus wasn't a scientist - the bible in context [Re: gluke bastid]
    #5609581 -

so, what was in the Darwin exhibit? was it really worthwhile? the last time time i went there (last June) it was swarmed with thousands of hyperactive children and i couldn't figure out how to get out of the building, oy.


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Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.

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Re: Jesus wasn't a scientist - the bible in context [Re: gluke bastid]
    #5609595 -

gluke bastid said:
OldWoodSpecter said:
You've just defined dogma.
Dogma is when someone like you is amazed by people who doubt the ideas he believes in

Don't you see that both sides of the argument are pretty much the same. The one side was raised being brainwashed by the Bible, while the other side has been brainwashed by what teachers toled them.



Dogma is when people believe in a rule or law after it has ceased to be effective or applicable.

I should have modified my sentence to read that I'm amazed that people attack Darwin's theory of evolution in favor of literally thinking that God made everything in seven days and women are all descendents of Eve who was just Adam's rib. It's not that I mock the story, it's just that I think the story wasn't written to be interpreted literally. And I don't think that it was originally. I think the literal fundamentalist interpretation is poorly named, as it is actually a new development.

Incidentally I don't believe in brainwashing in the sense that you are using the term.


Dogma is a belief which is to be taken as such without doubts.
A "truth" which is always true and should not be doubted.


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I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

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Re: Jesus wasn't a scientist - the bible in context [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #5611965 -

The creation story in Gensis was not written at the same time as the bible man. Do some research and you'll find that same basic story in almost all early cultures, It was an OLD oral "history". It is fitting that is used as the metaphor.

At the same time I cnat understand why people cannot reconcile God, and science. Evolution for instance I believe in. Darwinism is even a possibility, but I do not kid myself that God didnt shape it all. Intelligent Design(no I dont think it should be taught in school, just like I dont believe in kids going to church) is the closes thing I've seen to my beliefs. They dont even hit on the head though, and that is the point, no one ever has or will.

Einstien knew science is nothing more than a proven glimpse of God. That is how I look at.


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"Religion without science is blind, Science without religion is lame." Albert Einstein

"peace is not maintained through force it is acheived through intelligence." Albert Einstein

"Those who desire to give up Freedom in order to gain Security, will not have, nor do they deserve, either one."
Thomas Jefferson

"To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical." --Thomas Jefferson

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Re: Jesus wasn't a scientist - the bible in context [Re: blaze2]
    #5612219 -

Yeah, I don't really see how the words of man can be mistaken for the words of God.

If God exists He couldn't have written a book so outdated and poor as the Bible. Instead God would have programmed our entire existence down to the four forces in physics (Gravitational, Electromagnetic, Strong, and Weak) as well as all the quarks or whatever else we will figure out in the future. Too bad we will probably never really know how it happened but I have to think that creation (not just of our puny Earth, but all that is) was something God-like and not so silly as that written in some really outdated text.


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I do not grow anything illegal.
I do not sell anything.
I am, however, a very curious individual.
I also try to be helpful.

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Re: Jesus wasn't a scientist - the bible in context [Re: FreedomFight]
    #5612235 -

FreedomFight said:
Yeah, I don't really see how the words of man can be mistaken for the words of God.

If God exists He couldn't have written a book so outdated and poor as the Bible. Instead God would have programmed our entire existence down to the four forces in physics (Gravitational, Electromagnetic, Strong, and Weak) as well as all the quarks or whatever else we will figure out in the future. Too bad we will probably never really know how it happened but I have to think that creation (not just of our puny Earth, but all that is) was something God-like and not so silly as that written in some really outdated text.


Well you can't have both such programing and free will.
If you want people with free will, all you can offer them is a word


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I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

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Re: Jesus wasn't a scientist - the bible in context [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #5612345 -

CosmicJoke said:
so, what was in the Darwin exhibit? was it really worthwhile? the last time time i went there (last June) it was swarmed with thousands of hyperactive children and i couldn't figure out how to get out of the building, oy.


Actually I don't personally recomment it, although my friend had a blast. There was a lot of little personal possessions of Darwin, like some of his letters and beetle collections and tools, etc. But overall it was just kind of a story of his life and how he put the theory of evolution together. I guess I already know most of that information, so the exhibit wasn't that interesting to me. And it cost like $25


--------------------
:hst:
Society in every form is a blessing,
but government at its best is but a necessary evil 
- Thomas Paine

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Re: Jesus wasn't a scientist - the bible in context [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #5612385 -

That's a model of social organization that gets too oft ignored. Indeed, most Western capitalisms could stand a hearty rejuvination of spiritual significance.


--------------------
:hst:
Society in every form is a blessing,
but government at its best is but a necessary evil 
- Thomas Paine

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Jesus wasn't a scientist - the bible in context [Re: gluke bastid]
    #5612420 -

Darwin came up with natural selection not evolution I belive.


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No statements made in any post or message by myself should be construed to mean that I am now, or have ever been, participating in or considering participation in any activities in violation of any local, state, or federal laws. All posts are works of fiction.

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Re: Jesus wasn't a scientist - the bible in context [Re: mikeownow]
    #5612450 -

mikeownow said:
Darwin came up with natural selection not evolution I belive.


Indeed. By Darwin's time, there were already other models of evolution, most notably Lamarckism.


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