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Offlineerectronik
newbie

Registered: 03/13/02
Posts: 34
Loc: zeitung unter den See
Last seen: 17 years, 2 months
The Bible and the clergy
    #752328 - 07/16/02 11:23 PM (21 years, 11 months ago)

Have they built nothing out of something?
Or something out of nothing?



have fun!


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"Hallucinogens can be like talking to a really talented salesman: beware of what you can sell yourself." - J.L.C.

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Anonymous

Re: The Bible and the clergy [Re: erectronik]
    #752569 - 07/17/02 05:10 AM (21 years, 11 months ago)

The clergy are parasites, they prey on the emotional weaknesses of the masses, their fear, ignorance, insecurities, and desire for meaning and understanding of their confused existence. They provide a valuable service for the weak minded who are unable to stand up to the concept of the unknown without a scaffolding of wishes and myths providing stability underneath their shaky mental base.

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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: The Bible and the clergy [Re: ]
    #752583 - 07/17/02 05:17 AM (21 years, 11 months ago)

Please do NOT attempt to disassemble my frail scaffolding.


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The proof is in the pudding.

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OfflineMAIA
World-BridgerKartikeya (DftS)
Male User Gallery

Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 7,397
Loc: Erra - 20 Tauri - M45 Sta...
Last seen: 1 day, 21 hours
Re: The Bible and the clergy [Re: erectronik]
    #752896 - 07/17/02 07:42 AM (21 years, 11 months ago)

Both , but none is good.
Parasites they are.

MAIA


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Spiritual being, living a human experience ... The Shroomery Mandala



Use, do not abuse; neither abstinence nor excess ever renders man happy.
Voltaire

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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 07/12/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
Re: The Bible and the clergy [Re: erectronik]
    #753172 - 07/17/02 09:24 AM (21 years, 11 months ago)

You're a brave one erectronik.


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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InvisibleRevelation

 User Gallery

Registered: 08/04/01
Posts: 6,135
Loc: heart cave
Re: The Bible and the clergy [Re: erectronik]
    #753237 - 07/17/02 09:52 AM (21 years, 11 months ago)

Jesus was the man. The pope is the anti christ.


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OfflineIni
daughter of theyew- tree

Registered: 12/10/01
Posts: 102
Loc: Switzerland
Last seen: 18 years, 4 months
Re: The Bible and the clergy [Re: ]
    #753473 - 07/17/02 11:40 AM (21 years, 11 months ago)

They provide a valuable service for the weak minded who are unable to stand up to the concept of the unknown without a scaffolding of wishes and myths providing stability underneath their shaky mental base.

Yes! And that is their reason to exist. I see those "weak minded" people as sheeps . They absolutely need a "wise" shepherd to guide them and to tell them which herbs they can eat and wich not.
I wouldn' t like to live in a place full of confused and disoriented sheeps.
Baah! Baah! Baah!


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Remain in Light
Greez Ini

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OfflineCaliChronic
member
Registered: 06/23/02
Posts: 111
Loc: Gulf Coast, USA
Last seen: 21 years, 7 months
Re: The Bible and the clergy [Re: erectronik]
    #754974 - 07/17/02 10:30 PM (21 years, 11 months ago)

the latter.


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...
overgrow

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Offlinewhy
journeyman
Registered: 06/03/02
Posts: 50
Last seen: 21 years, 10 months
Re: The Bible and the clergy [Re: ]
    #756127 - 07/18/02 10:40 AM (21 years, 11 months ago)

>The clergy are parasites, they prey on the emotional weaknesses of the masses


Many members of the clergy not only do a lot of good in this world, but I suspect that many of them are a lot more genuinely spiritual than you are. You obviously aren't the first person to put these arguments before: that anyone who participates in orthodox religion is "weak minded" - that they need the crutch of religion. Has it occured to you that YOU might be the weak minded one who just goes along with what most other people believe? that you don't have anything intelligent to say on the matter because you are trying too hard to look intelligent?




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Anonymous

Re: The Bible and the clergy [Re: why]
    #756255 - 07/18/02 11:36 AM (21 years, 11 months ago)

Many members of the clergy not only do a lot of good in this world, but I suspect that many of them are a lot more genuinely spiritual than you are.
'A lot of good in this world' is rather nebulous terminology and can be considered a matter of opinion. As far as being 'more genuinely spiritual' than I am, if you mean making wishes to and attempting to massage the ego of a mythical invisible amorphous gaseous being with the temperament and manners of a spoiled child, yes I guess they must be 'more genuinely spiritual' than I am.

Has it occured to you that YOU might be the weak minded one who just goes along with what most other people believe?
Your ignorance is showing. Obviously you haven't read any of my posts (of course a lot were deleted when there was a server crash) except for this one. What indication have I given that I am one who just goes along with what most other people believe?

that you don't have anything intelligent to say on the matter because you are trying too hard to look intelligent?
What does that mean, to 'look intelligent?' Should I shave off my beard and remove my glasses and pocket protector? Perhaps I should stop wearing white socks and scuffed up dress shoes with plaid dress pants that are two inches too short. Is there too much grease in my hair?

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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: The Bible and the clergy [Re: ]
    #756262 - 07/18/02 11:41 AM (21 years, 11 months ago)

Dear God, no! Leave the pocket protector. The ink stains will clash with your maddress bow tie.


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The proof is in the pudding.

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OfflineZahid
Stranger
Registered: 01/21/02
Posts: 4,779
Last seen: 19 years, 8 months
Re: The Bible and the clergy [Re: erectronik]
    #756423 - 07/18/02 12:59 PM (21 years, 11 months ago)

I'm quite sure Jesus Christ would be offended by what is now the Chatholic Church.


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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 07/12/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
Re: The Bible and the clergy [Re: Zahid]
    #757699 - 07/18/02 08:26 PM (21 years, 11 months ago)

I'm quite sure Jesus Christ would be offended by what is now the Chatholic Church.

Yep, the Fightin' Jesus would probably dust off his boots and line them all up for a good stompin'.

Wait a second... ZAHID!! Are you suggesting that Jesus? would actually be upset with dogmatism? You can't be serious... why, if I recall correctly... wait... yes, it WAS Jesus? that reamed the pharisees back in the day. Hmm, I guess The Church? must've skipped over that part of the Bible. Oh well... I guess we'll have to wait for the second coming to clear up that little "oversight".


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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Offlinewhiterastahippie
lover

Registered: 07/18/02
Posts: 718
Loc: look into a child's eyes,...
Last seen: 21 years, 6 months
Re: The Bible and the clergy [Re: Sclorch]
    #757907 - 07/18/02 11:01 PM (21 years, 11 months ago)

no offense intended but in my own personal opinion i think you are so friggin wrong dude. what do you really know about the catholic church? what you been told? by who....people who hate the church? ever heard of rumors? what can you prove more than, "i got it off the web"?
and even more importantly, don't you realize that the universe is infinite and therefore there are infinite possibilities. that means the everything is right is some way and yet everything is wrong. infinity. so why are catholics wrong? why are muslims wrong? does that work for them? then for them, they are doing their best. i believe i'm right. but you believe you're right, but in all reality, we are both right. the only person who is wrong is one who preaches, bashes or hates on anything. see, look at it this way, God is perfect. no matter what you call god. i mean, one of the definitions of god is perfection...if the earth is your god. the earth is perfect. it runs without flaw. MAN fucks it up. if the christian god is your god. god is perfect, his church is perfect...MAN fucks it up...but these things all manage to last despite the damage we give them. in reality even if you believe there is no God....beleive your are god...you still fuck up, everybody does. that's man. we are finite beings...see, all religions are fine, but all people have evil in them. ghengis kahn did what he did for his religion...the japanese invaded china for religion...aztecs slaughtered thousands more than christians ever raped and murdured in the crusades and the most frequently lied about, the inquisition. all for religion. so where those peoples all christians? no. why do people rag on christians the most? because they were raised with it, and the know it better than others. and rebellion is a fashion statement in this day and age. all we need is love and peace and tolerance. no segregation. people are people, just get along, it's so simple.


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Peace and Love to all!

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Offlinewhy
journeyman
Registered: 06/03/02
Posts: 50
Last seen: 21 years, 10 months
Re: The Bible and the clergy [Re: ]
    #758283 - 07/19/02 05:35 AM (21 years, 11 months ago)

'A lot of good in this world' is rather nebulous terminology and can be considered a matter of opinion. As far as being 'more genuinely spiritual' than I am, if you mean making wishes to and attempting to massage the ego of a mythical invisible amorphous gaseous being...'

and by the same token it is a matter of opinion that that is what the clergy spend their time doing.

The arguments in your first post I have used before myself, when I discussed religion with other people as a child of 10 years old. They just seem a little immature to me, have you been reading the Satanic Bible recently?

Most everyone believes that they think for themselves... that they are an "individual" unlike the rest of the sheep... when you grow up a little you will realize you are just as much a victim of cultural conditioning as the "weak minded" people you look down on, if not more so.

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Offlinewhy
journeyman
Registered: 06/03/02
Posts: 50
Last seen: 21 years, 10 months
Re: The Bible and the clergy [Re: ]
    #758397 - 07/19/02 06:27 AM (21 years, 11 months ago)

What does that mean, to 'look intelligent?' Should I shave off my beard and remove my glasses and pocket protector?


whiterastahippie put it better than me:

"rebellion is a fashion statement in this day and age"

That is what I ment when I said you were trying to look intelligent.

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Anonymous

Re: The Bible and the clergy [Re: why]
    #758600 - 07/19/02 07:36 AM (21 years, 11 months ago)

The arguments in your first post I have used before myself, when I discussed religion with other people as a child of 10 years old. They just seem a little immature to me, have you been reading the Satanic Bible recently?
What is maturity in your view? Following a set dogma and looking to clergy to interpret the bible for you? Why the reference to the Satanic Bible, are you afraid that demonic thoughts might be engulfing another naive young mind? Yes, that's probably it, we must save our young boys for the Catholic priests and our young girls for the preachers.


Most everyone believes that they think for themselves... that they are an "individual" unlike the rest of the sheep... when you grow up a little you will realize you are just as much a victim of cultural conditioning as the "weak minded" people you look down on, if not more so.
You still have no clue as to who I am or my mode of thinking and continue with your first ill conceived notions. How old must I be to 'grow up' and realize my status of victim? What is my cultural conditioning? How do you know?


"rebellion is a fashion statement in this day and age"
That is what I ment when I said you were trying to look intelligent.

Again you make another statement based on your own fantasy thinking about a person you know nothing about. What makes you think that I'm into current fashions, be they garments or behavior?

Is this the same mode of thinking that you use in coming to conclusions about religion? Make a quick assumption based on your own prejudices and maintain your assumptions with no further attempt to understand what you don't know. This is the apparent line of reasoning you have used to construct your mental model of me. Your reasoning is seriously flawed in this instance (understanding another human), what makes you think it works better when addressing the weightier task of understanding the nature of all that is?

Edited by Evolving (07/19/02 07:40 AM)

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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 07/12/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
Re: The Bible and the clergy [Re: ]
    #758852 - 07/19/02 09:41 AM (21 years, 11 months ago)

*clap clap clap clap clap*


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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OfflineZahid
Stranger
Registered: 01/21/02
Posts: 4,779
Last seen: 19 years, 8 months
Re: The Bible and the clergy [Re: Sclorch]
    #759276 - 07/19/02 12:32 PM (21 years, 11 months ago)

Sclorch.. in the eyes of people who believe in God, Jesus and other prophets, the only religions that exist are the ones that worship false gods... so they're called religions. 2002 years ago, if you were to say "Religion is stupid" to Jesus, he would say "Yes, it is. Submit to the Creator." Jesus didn't intend for his message to be split up into sects that bicker with each other. To me, Islam is NOT a religion, but a way of life that is the truth (you'll probably disagree with me completely though).. Consider all three abrahamic faiths were a result of divine inspirations, they wouldn't be considered religions.

Would jesus be upset with the institution that is now the Catholic Church? Probably. It was the Catholic Church that called upon a bunch of kings to send troops to the holy land and killed all the Arabs in the area.

Would Jesus be upset with the concept of people worshipping and obeying God? No way.


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Offlinewhiterastahippie
lover

Registered: 07/18/02
Posts: 718
Loc: look into a child's eyes,...
Last seen: 21 years, 6 months
Re: The Bible and the clergy [Re: ]
    #760385 - 07/19/02 09:09 PM (21 years, 11 months ago)

there is a breed of people in this world who inhabit the chairs behind computer screens, or coffee shops, or bars. they use big words to confuse you and to make themselves feel better. they keep going on and on and on about things like...religion. they like to start arguements that usually wind around to bashing christianity. why? because they are so bitter inside. they have no inner peace. argueing with them in like argueing with a schizophrenic. you go round and round. you will never prove them wrong. you will never prove them right. because either way, that would end the conflict, and conflict. conflict...they feed on it. like a parasite on a host. they drink hate like water. what they say APPEARS to make since because they say it with passion. but on closer examination...there are more holes in what they say then there are in a window screen. you say, "let's not fight" they say something crazy and repetitave. some of these "haters" have started wars in the past...maybe you know them. hitler? stalin?
kkk comes to mind. but they never started a war.
after running into this breed in every religion chatroom on every server you go to. you realize that for whatever their reasons are, they HATE the christian god. and they think they can change things and make themselves feel better by bashing him and the whole christian religion. the only problem is, they won't ever be happy that way. because every time some one disagrees with them, they go ballistic.
this breed of person is wild, but if you argue with them enough, you realize that they say nothing new. ever. at all. in fact, go to yahoo chat and go into an athiest chatroom. they bash christians non stop. why just christians? doesn't atheist come from the greek root words meaning "no God"? it does....so why the christian God in particular? oh yeah...they got it shoved down their throats, now they're adults and they want to shove something back.
they'll try to say they just hate organized religion in general. but when they talk, it's really just about christians most of the time. they are everywhere though, just go to the places i go....look, i'm a devout catholic who goes to gothic clubs and mormon churches. i go anywhere and everywhere i can observe people. i would really love to someday figure out why this breed hates christians more than anybody.
look i'm a devout catholic who won't shove what i think is true down your throat. why? because i used to be an athiest. before that a protestant...why am i catholic? because i studied religion from the roots up. from the history books. from all sides. not just the baptist side, or the catholic side, or the muslim side, or the jewish side, or the buddhist side...you get the picture. i studied it and found this to be flawless for me. it works for me. it works good.
wait, did i just say i KNOW WHAT I BELIEVE AND DON'T BLINDLY FOLLOW THE CLERGY? if i didn't say those exact words, i should have...let me say them again: i KNOW WHAT I BELIEVE AND DON'T BLINDLY FOLLOW THE CLERGY.

DUDE...understand me here for two seconds. yeah you, the one who is bashing so hard. pull your head out of your ass and look around. you think what you are saying is original....it's not, i used to think it was too. it's NOT. right after i became catholic, i would go into religious chatrooms and debate for HOURS on end. then i figured out something. it's stupid and pointless. people don't want to hear what i have to say. they want to bash because it makes them feel good...until they hear the response, then they get even more mad, use even bigger words...sometimes even resorting to a dictionary so as to sound even more intelligent...and bash more. then they feel good. until they hear the response. it's an endless cycle dude.
you should chill, and try to see some other peoples point of view. it helps alot. i mean, some of the things you've said about the catholic church. oh my god! they are so far out there and wrong. lol. i mean, it's no surprise, it's typical anti catholic propaganda. it gets funny after...years of it.
but hey, crap will come out my ass, and dumbass people will always bash. somebodies got to teach the rest of us patience.

peace and harmony to all and let the rasta love flow!


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Peace and Love to all!

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Offlinewhiterastahippie
lover

Registered: 07/18/02
Posts: 718
Loc: look into a child's eyes,...
Last seen: 21 years, 6 months
Re: The Bible and the clergy [Re: ]
    #760527 - 07/19/02 09:54 PM (21 years, 11 months ago)

as the band stroke 9 put it;
Anger is todays fashion statment, so let's sing another song about bashing someones head in.
You still have no clue as to who I am or my mode of thinking and continue with your first ill conceived notions. How old must I be to 'grow up' and realize my status of victim? What is my cultural conditioning? How do you know?

he's 14.

Is this the same mode of thinking that you use in coming to conclusions about religion? Make a quick assumption based on your own prejudices and maintain your assumptions with no further attempt to understand what you don't know. This is the apparent line of reasoning you have used to construct your mental model of me. Your reasoning is seriously flawed in this instance (understanding another human), what makes you think it works better when addressing the weightier task of understanding the nature of all that is?

that is so fucking hypocritical dude. lol. you have done exactly that. exactly. you have made assumptions about christians (they have to be because most aren't true) and then held to them with no further attempt to understand what YOU don't know. you so obviously don't even know what christians believe. you must be getting your info from other people instead of going to the source. wanna know what we believe? find out from the horses mouth. AND NO DON'T FIND SOME 12 YEAR OLD AND SCARE THE SHIT OUT OF HIM TRYING TO PROVE HIS FAITH WRONG more like, get a catholic catechism. read it. get doctrinal staments froms other churches. read them. don't wanna do that? go to www.envoymagazine.com hear what INFORMED catholics have to say about their beliefs. and a brief look over don't count. pick an article on one of the fundamentals of faith, and read it. at least one.
don't wanna read them? then don't talk about us. until you know what we believe as WE see it. not as you and your cronies do. then you have NO (repeat) NO *NO* right to talk about us. at ALL. so dude.
you wanna go little boy? (vroom vroom)
let's go off the line now at sunset and vine....(old song lyrics, sorry.)
seriously. start at the beginning.
what is everything? what is nothing? what is God?

nothing comes from nothing. there has to be at the beginning of every cause, an uncaused cause. if you want to call it lifeforce or god or whatever you want. but it has to be there. imagine it as a train. there has to be an engine at one end to pull it. or a chain, it may be able to hang down to infinty, but there has to be something it is hanging from. a first. so out of everything we know of, what cannot be created or destroyed, it just IS? energy. energy can be neither created or destroyed. so this (for lack of a better term) "God" must be energy. pure energy.

wow, is it four? it is. i'm going to bed. i'll finish this later. or not at all, that really bugs uptight people.



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Peace and Love to all!

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InvisibleMystical_Craven
mentally illpsychonaught

Registered: 06/16/02
Posts: 439
Loc: Earth
whiterastahippie [Re: whiterastahippie]
    #760700 - 07/20/02 12:08 AM (21 years, 11 months ago)

Damn good posts...well thought out, nicely worded, and pretty much straight foreword. Kudos to you my friend.


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"Only those who risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go..." T.S. Eliot

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OfflineAdamist
ℚṲℰϟ✞ЇѺℵ ℛ∃Åʟḯ†У
Male User Gallery

Registered: 11/23/01
Posts: 10,211
Loc: Bloomington, IN
Last seen: 9 years, 3 months
Re: whiterastahippie [Re: Mystical_Craven]
    #760710 - 07/20/02 12:25 AM (21 years, 11 months ago)

Hallelujah to that!


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:heartpump: { { { ṧ◎ηḯ¢ αʟ¢ℌ℮мƴ } } } :heartpump:

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Offlinewhiterastahippie
lover

Registered: 07/18/02
Posts: 718
Loc: look into a child's eyes,...
Last seen: 21 years, 6 months
Re: whiterastahippie [Re: Adamist]
    #761038 - 07/20/02 04:55 AM (21 years, 11 months ago)

well worded? i was going for actually hitting the right keys, i had just got back from a house party. but it looks like i succeeded beyond my expectations.

life is love, love is art, art is life, life is art. so...
keep the rasta love flowing man!


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Peace and Love to all!

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Offlineerectronik
newbie

Registered: 03/13/02
Posts: 34
Loc: zeitung unter den See
Last seen: 17 years, 2 months
Re: The Bible and the clergy [Re: why]
    #761077 - 07/20/02 05:20 AM (21 years, 11 months ago)

Has it occured to you that YOU might be the weak minded one who just goes along with what most other people believe?

Yes, many times. However, I don't do that, and I don't have crappy faith.

Next challenge. And make it good this time.


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"Hallucinogens can be like talking to a really talented salesman: beware of what you can sell yourself." - J.L.C.

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Offlinewhiterastahippie
lover

Registered: 07/18/02
Posts: 718
Loc: look into a child's eyes,...
Last seen: 21 years, 6 months
Re: whiterastahippie [Re: whiterastahippie]
    #761100 - 07/20/02 05:29 AM (21 years, 11 months ago)

so this "God" of pure energy, how is he the source of all? well, you can't create something greater than yourself, but when nothing exist but yourself, then you have nothing to create anything out of, but yourself. think about it.

in essence, everything is energy. what holds the protons and nuetrons to the atom? what holds molecules together? what holds all the molecules of a tree in the shape of a tree? it all breaks down to energy eventually (that would totally explain God's omni-presence and omni essence).
so God created all out of...what? nothing? no, himself. a positive energy. there's another word for that too, i call it love. positive energy is just raw love. that is why we say God is love.
see, some eastern religions say that all was created out of this energy source, but they don't say that this energy source is intelligent, but it has to be, because i'm intelligent. i have to be patterened after something greater. why? duh, because a computer doesn't make a person, the person makes the computer. you catch my drift? see, if i'm a logical thinking human...that was sludged up by CHANCE...how can i trust my own logic? here, this came to me as i was meditating today.

in all things, there is a start. a first, an all, an uncaused cause.
this any man can know from his heart. from birth to death, without a pause.
as the engine must be, to pull the train, without it it wouldn't couldn't move.
as there must be a hook, to hold the hanging chain, oh listen won't you to what i'm trying to prove?
it seems i am nothing at all...if nothing is what has conceived me, it seems i am patterned to fall, if a greater pattern was not patterned before me.
but it seems something, i am. if something Greater has come before i.
conceived of a conscienceness greater than man. in spite of all that man could try. this is God. the essence of existence.
this is God. in the face of man's resistance.
this is TO BE. this is eternity.

see, God is not some gasious myterious father figure type who does unexplainible things. God is simply to be. to exist. god is. he is ISing. make sense? like....if i say "i am", then you wait for me to finish. i am what? i have to finish the sentence because i'm a finite being. but God just is.
"I AM what it is TO BE."
so if christians believe that, then why not worship thier very existence? why NOT worship something that holds everything together? something that is pure energy and holds everything else together...deserves worship in my humble and PERSONAL (not preaching) opinion.


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Peace and Love to all!

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Offlinewhiterastahippie
lover

Registered: 07/18/02
Posts: 718
Loc: look into a child's eyes,...
Last seen: 21 years, 6 months
Re: The Bible and the clergy [Re: erectronik]
    #761125 - 07/20/02 05:36 AM (21 years, 11 months ago)

Has it occured to you that YOU might be the weak minded one who just goes along with what most other people believe?

what's wrong with going along with what others beleive if they might be right?
yeah, figuring things out for yourself is good, but sometimes it's pointless. you set yourself back! if somebody else has gone through the trouble and pain to figure something out, why should you have to? just steal his findings! take this for instance.
"i think going along with what other people believe is stupid, so i will go out with a key and a kite in a rainstorm and figure everything out for myself."

yeah that's about where you're coming from as far as i can tell. edison did it for me so i don't have to. i know how electricity works. but i don't have to rediscover it every time. geeze, that's just like...stoooopid rebellion.

peace and harmony to all.


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Peace and Love to all!

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Offlineerectronik
newbie

Registered: 03/13/02
Posts: 34
Loc: zeitung unter den See
Last seen: 17 years, 2 months
Re: The Bible and the clergy [Re: whiterastahippie]
    #761179 - 07/20/02 05:59 AM (21 years, 11 months ago)

there is a breed of people in this world who inhabit the chairs behind computer screens, or coffee shops, or bars. they use big words to confuse you and to make themselves feel better.

A) You may be one of the people you're criticizing, since I don't think you typed this from a net hammock on beach.

B) You may be unfairly stereotyping people you don't understand or relate to.

they keep going on and on and on about things like...religion. they like to start arguements that usually wind around to bashing christianity. why? because they are so bitter inside.

Maybe there's nothing wrong with discussing religion, criticizing it at times. Hell, it needs to be sometimes! They do it because it don't hurt them none. Why does it seem to hurt you so much? And, bitter? Hell, I'm only bitter because I've been bullshitted all my life about everything. About what's important and how to be happy. If you think you got that from christianity, maybe I got the wrong christianity. Maybe you got the version that's all touchy-feely and new-agey, which is basically the one that I think Jesus intended, lucky you, but the one I got, the "real" one, the one that COUNTLESS MORONS talk about it is hypocritical and self-destructive/close-minded.

they have no inner peace. argueing with them in like argueing with a schizophrenic. you go round and round.

so, you have inner peace? I think I do, too. Know how I feel I got it? By argueing with people, for many, many, years. "How in the world can that make you happy?" Think about it, I had to have had inner peace to argue that long without going crazy, like you say, a "schizophrenic".


you will never prove them wrong. you will never prove them right. because either way, that would end the conflict, and conflict. conflict...they feed on it.

That was 100% BULLSHIT.
I am ALWAYS willing to be proven wrong. And I have been. I like ultimately to try and reduce that likelyhood. I do not like conflict. I hate it, but I certainly DON'T FEAR it. As I see you don't either. Cool.

like a parasite on a host. they drink hate like water. what they say APPEARS to make since because they say it with passion. but on closer examination...there are more holes in what they say then there are in a window screen. you say, "let's not fight" they say something crazy and repetitave. some of these "haters" have started wars in the past...maybe you know them. hitler? stalin?

ok, for real man, I think you just checked out completely here.
I mean, nerdy hipsters bullshit-philosophizing in a bar are the same as sadistic dictators?! Come on! Get real! I'm sorry but you doing the very same thing you're critizing, but don't realize it.
You just going to have to accept that some people think differently than you do. Maybe you'll use some of that compassion of yours to accept them, if you can't learn more about them. I think I may be one of them. I think you saw me in a coffee bar the other day, talking to my friend about how when we were little kids in church, we CRAVED something spiritual, and usually got it, but as time went on, the church didn't do it for us any more. It didn't answer our biggest questions satisfyingly and even appeared to being lying.

Yeah, can you tell I've been up all night "thinking"?


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"Hallucinogens can be like talking to a really talented salesman: beware of what you can sell yourself." - J.L.C.

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Offlinewhiterastahippie
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Re: The Bible and the clergy [Re: erectronik]
    #761287 - 07/20/02 06:38 AM (21 years, 11 months ago)

good call my friend! very good call . no most of that was pointed directly at evolving. not you. actually, reading your posts you are very clear and concise, plus accepting of other peoples own personal beliefs. and you don't use pointless big words to impress and confuse people.
and i was not comparing nerdy hipsters to hitler.
the people i was comparing to hitler are the people who dress in black (not that THAT is bad, they just happen to do it most of the time), and do strange things for attention, and when they get it, they use that chance to bash christians. they wear shirts that say, "i hate God". and i'm not joking. i brought one back to my place once to philosophise with him....he was more of a nazi than hitler himself. as we smoked j after j he unfolded his theory on how white non religious males are better than everybody. blacks are still basically talking apes. and anything he didn't like held back the human race from it's full potential.
scary dude, lemme tell ya. but i run into these people ALL the time. maybe i'm lucky, maybe i'm just a magnet for haters. who knows. i can't get away from them.
and about the conflict, yes, you may be willing to be proven wrong. like i said, you aren't this type i'm desrcibing. i'm speaking of the people who when there is nothing else to argue about, will start to bitch about the sun being to bright because they have to bitch. everybody has seen someone like this at least once. i just happen to meet them every day. and i smile....because i can talk to them on the same level...i can hold my own. no petty bible thumper here. lol.

and hey, i didn't write this from a hammock, but i'm deffinatly not in a chair. i have a zen thing in my apartment. no chairs. computer in on the floor. i just have huge pillows everywhere.
and i was raised with the smothering brand of christianity also. i just went atheist because it made no sense. then i figured out that everything christians say has such a deeper meaning, they've just ruined it by saying it with nothing to back it up.
you can beleive whatever you want, but DON'T talk about it until you understand it. that's like going to a harley davidson bar and trying to talk about it when all you ride is a mo-ped. love harleys, but unless you have some sort of knowledge about how they work, don't preach about them.
so many people think they can change peoples minds just by quoting scripture.

"this is true because the bible says so" they say.
so you say, "and what makes the bible true?"
"um...the bible says it is."
that's a stupid circle. stooooopid. the bible itself says it's not the final authority, just most protestants ignore what they don't like about the bible. the bible itself contradicts most denominations and brands of christianity. but they ignore that. your average christian dude knows 12 to 24 verses by heart and thinks he knows the bible. i point out other verses he's never noticed...i've seen protestants stutter like a stoned monkey they get so confused. now i believe the bible, but i also beleive that the new testament was not compiled until between 390 and 400 a.d. at the councils of nicea and hippo and carthage. so how did christians work before then? i mean even after then, to make one bible cost as much as to by a house because they were made out on sheepskin. nobody lived by the bible in the beginning, they lived by the tradition passed down from father to son. i mean yeah, they had the torah. the old testament, but that was old jewish law...and all the predictions and prophecies in the old testament were fullfilled after jesus came.
and all this fighting among christians? never meant to happen. ever read john chapter 17? jesus says, "let my followers be one so they will be known by thier unity." there was only one church before martin luther. it was called catholic. translation: universal. that's what catholic means. and the catholic church today is the same church. just like an oak tree and an acorn...everything in the oak tree was in the acorn and everything in the acorn is in the oak tree, it just gorws and adapts. just like the Church. have we catholics done bad things? i guess that means we're HUMAN and we make mistakes but the church itself has never actually done anything bad. just some people in the church.

yeah, so basically, nothing i said was wrong, i just wasn't talking about you. but then again, i could have been talking about me and you and everyone. everyone is the same you know. the universe is infinite therefore there are infinite possibilities.




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Offlinewhy
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Re: The Bible and the clergy [Re: ]
    #761360 - 07/20/02 07:07 AM (21 years, 11 months ago)

Why the reference to the Satanic Bible, are you afraid that demonic thoughts might be engulfing another naive young mind?

so have you read it then?


You still have no clue as to who I am or my mode of thinking and continue with your first ill conceived notions.

Yes I do, because I have thought in the same way as you do now. You may not want to believe that...

How old must I be to 'grow up' and realize my status of victim? What is my cultural conditioning? How do you know?

Everyone is a "victim" of cultural conditioning. Values, beliefs, ethics, ways of thinking etc. they all come from the culture you live in.

How do I know you are? because as I said, everyone is conditioned in this way.

If you think you are above that, you are deluding yourself. How old do you have to be to realize that your not as independently minded as you believe? that depends on you.

What makes you think that I'm into current fashions, be they garments or behavior?

What I think about you, is that you give strong opinions on subjects you know very little about. I also don't believe that you think for yourself very much.

Is this the same mode of thinking that you use in coming to conclusions about religion? Make a quick assumption based on your own prejudices and maintain your assumptions with no further attempt to understand what you don't know.

That is what I used to do. I dismissed it all without knowing anything about it. I can recognize the same in you. I know you will continue to say "you don't know anything about me" (that's what I would have said too).






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Offlinewhiterastahippie
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Re: The Bible and the clergy [Re: why]
    #761384 - 07/20/02 07:17 AM (21 years, 11 months ago)

lol dude, that last post by why...telling someone you know all about them and you used to be like them and they will grow out of it is like the worst way to piss some one off. lol. you're cool dude. to many people get way to serious and need to be settled down. i think we should drop mary jane smoke bombs around the world and everybody would chill out. i mean shit, if bin laden had been a pothead he probably wouldn't have attacked us.



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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: The Bible and the clergy [Re: ]
    #761620 - 07/20/02 08:42 AM (21 years, 11 months ago)

LOL!!! Really, I'm LOL!! "...a mythical invisible amorphous gaseous being with the temperament and manners of a small child..." Please Evolving...too much! No, really, you yourself must think of God as you have described the above. You are too literal yourself to grasp the subtlties of even the ancient Yahwist if this is how you think. No wonder your angry about such a god!. Moreover, you can't possibly get how the early notion of YHWH Tsabaoth, a sort of 'localized mountain Deity,' grew 'in the minds of' the Hebrew people whose own conception of Deity evolved over millennia.

Now granted, Ultimate Reality to the religious man (Homo Religiosus) is not less than personal, but greater than personal. This does not mean a great, big person (howsover invisible and omnipresent), it means transpersonal - a category that 'goes beyond' personality. Similarly, eternity is not time without end. It is not time at all, but utterly transcends change and directional flow. Of course writngs about God are cast in mythological language - it is the best form of language to impart a Reality that is ineffable, that is unable to be spoken of directly. It's like trying to see an atom with a simple light microscope. Read Joseph Campbell's 'The Power of Myth.' Hell...read anything about Humankind's struggle to communicate in concept and language THAT which defies description.

You may never have a glimpse of THAT Reality, nor intuit It's Presence, nor have faith in that which Sees but is Unseen. But you ought to pause before you ridicule, and wonder what others are attempting to communicate through the bizarre language of religious myth, before you condemn. Superior insight in these matters is evidenced by humility, not arrogance. [..."mythical invisible amorphous GASEOUS..." LOL!........]


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Anonymous

Re: The Bible and the clergy [Re: why]
    #761864 - 07/20/02 09:58 AM (21 years, 11 months ago)

so have you read it then? (the Satanic Bible)
Yes, I have also read The 'Holy' Bible (King James Version), The Tao Te Cheng, Maps of The Mind, The World Book Encyclopedia, The Prophet, Call of The Wild, Black Beauty, Grim's Fairy Tales, Chocolate To Morphine, The Art of War, Progress and Poverty, The Deep Self, Intoxication, The Writings of Thomas Paine, The Mysterious Stranger, Tom Sawyer, Huckleberry Finn, Animal Farm, Deciphering the Sense, The Curious Republic of Gondour, The Breakdown of Nations, Myths That Cause Crime, Code Complete, Object-Oriented Analysis, The Object Advantage, Labyrinths of Reason, The Holographic Paradigm, The Holographic Mind, Democracy in America, Nations & States, Superior Beings, A Book of Five Rings, The Wrong Way Home, The Myth of Mental Illness, etc., etc., etc., blah, blah, blah. Why is this relevant?


I have thought in the same way as you do now. You may not want to believe that...
May be you might have had similar opinions to what I expressed earlier in this thread, but that hardly qualifies you to state that you have thought in the same way as I do now. As I stated previously, you still have no clue as to who I am or my mode of thinking and continue with your first ill conceived notions. If you did, we would not be having this dialogue. For all you know I could be a 6 year old female prodigy or a 53 year old Viet Nam vet and ex-hippie thrice divorced who has recently come to terms with the fact that he is gay.


Everyone is a "victim" of cultural conditioning. Values, beliefs, ethics, ways of thinking etc. they all come from the culture you live in
Sorry, I'm not a victim. It's true that all of us are born into a certain culture and are subject to it's influences, but this does not necessarily govern our entire mode of thinking and it does not tell how we will diverge in thought from others brought up in similar circumstances.


What I think about you, is that you give strong opinions on subjects you know very little about. I also don't believe that you think for yourself very much.
How did your arrive at this conclusion? Because I think differently than you do? This makes no sense. To reiterate my first point, you do not know me, you do not know my background, you do not know my age, you do not know my experience, you do not know my schooling, you do not know what religions and/or philosophies I may have investigated or immersed myself in and you do not understand my mode of thinking. Granted, you may look at some of my previous posts and be able to collect some information that I have presented, however you do not know if anything I have written about myself is true.


That is what I used to do. I dismissed it all without knowing anything about it. I can recognize the same in you.
No you can't, because I have not dismissed it all without knowing anything about it. What you 'recognize in me' is that which you choose to project on me. This says more about you than it does about me. You are not aware of my depth of knowledge, you merely have made assumptions and vainly present them as wisdom.


I know you will continue to say "you don't know anything about me" (that's what I would have said too).
This is the most perceptive thing you have stated yet.

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Anonymous

Re: The Bible and the clergy [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #761945 - 07/20/02 10:33 AM (21 years, 11 months ago)

you yourself must think of God as you have described the above. You are too literal yourself to grasp the subtlties of even the ancient Yahwist if this is how you think.
You misread me as well. I was using my words to emphasize a point about others' concepts of a diety. I have no personal concept of God, I only know that there is the universe/nature with all it's complexities and mysteries. I do not make assumption about the unknown, neither do I project human characteristics on it and the natural universe and call the collective idea 'God' and then take this concept and proclaim it as 'truth.'


No wonder your angry about such a god!.
I'm not. This thread is about The Bible and the clergy. I take issue with those who claim to know the unknowable and use it as a means of living off of the ignorant. What have the clergy done in the name of their supposed 'truth?' Hmm, lets ask some alter boys and their experiences in the rectumry with the clergy, or how about the story of Jim and Tammy Baker?


Superior insight in these matters is evidenced by humility, not arrogance.
What is more arrogant than claiming to have the 'true religion' and claiming to have knowledge of what is not known?

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OfflineMAIA
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Re: whiterastahippie [Re: whiterastahippie]
    #763768 - 07/21/02 03:41 AM (21 years, 10 months ago)

"but God just is.
"I AM what it is TO BE."
so if christians believe that, then why not worship thier very existence? why NOT worship something that holds everything together? "

But why do you need a religion ? You can be connected to god by yourself without the need of the institution church, you can be christian without the priest, you are a son of god like Christ was, he told you to believe in him, not to go to church every sunday morning.
It looks like we followed opposite ways, i was a catholic until 14 and i felt good being a catholic because their ideas were enough to explain my connection with god. After sometime i became awared of the mistake i was doing, i was speting my time, beliefs and energy on something that just couldn't explain my essence, i learned many good lesson of love when i was catholic as i learned other positive points thru reading other religions books, i just don't need the institution and the religion anymore, can you accept that ?

MAIA


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Spiritual being, living a human experience ... The Shroomery Mandala



Use, do not abuse; neither abstinence nor excess ever renders man happy.
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Offlinewhy
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Re: The Bible and the clergy [Re: ]
    #763793 - 07/21/02 04:03 AM (21 years, 10 months ago)

You are not aware of my depth of knowledge

lol

by the way, do you have any Marilyn Manson CD's?

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Offlinewhy
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Re: The Bible and the clergy [Re: ]
    #763835 - 07/21/02 04:30 AM (21 years, 10 months ago)

you do not know me, you do not know my background, you do not know my age, you do not know my experience, you do not know my schooling, you do not know what religions and/or philosophies I may have investigated or immersed myself in and you do not understand my mode of thinking

"you don't know anything about me"


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Offlinewhiterastahippie
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Re: whiterastahippie [Re: MAIA]
    #764208 - 07/21/02 09:05 AM (21 years, 10 months ago)

of course i can accept that maia, i strive to accept and love anybody who isn't a hater. and i try to only preach at preachers to get them to not preach, the problem is, when i'm in a forum, everybody who's not a christian reads my posts and thinks i'm talking about them directly, but most times i'm not. i'm just talking about the bashers.
and hey, if i start getting hypocrytical, then kick me in the ass and put me in my place and it's all good. i might get a little miffed, but i get over it.

But why do you need a religion ? You can be connected to god by yourself without the need of the institution church, you can be christian without the priest, you are a son of god like Christ was, he told you to believe in him, not to go to church every sunday morning.

Websters new world college dictionary. Internationally renowned for clarity, precision, and ease of use. third editon, completely updated: Religion (ri lij en) N. --
holiness, a system of religious beliefs. to bind together.
1) a Belief in a divine or superhuman power or powers to be obeyed and worshipped as the creator(s) and ruler(s) of the universe. b) expression or such a belief in conduct and ritual.
2) ANY (repeat ANY) specific system of belief and worship, often (but not always) involving a code of ethics and a philosophy [the christian religion, the buddhist religion, ect.] b) ANY (repeat again ANY) system of beliefs, practices, ethical values, ect. resembling, suggestive of, or likened to such a system. [humanism as a religion]
3) (this one really doesn't appy to the converstaion) the state or way of life of a person in a monestary or convent.
4) ANY OBJECT OF CONSCIENTIOUS REGARD AND PURSUIT-----*

i think the word religion gets used wrong. people say they don't want to follow a religion with doctrines and rules, but religion doesn't mean just that...it means so much more, just as the word "run" has over 30 meanings and deffinitions in most dictionarys.
so why do i need a religion? well, i could be way off in my reasoning here, but everybody has different opinions. here's mine.
because a religion is a system of beliefs. if there are more than two people who happen to share the same beliefs as i about worship, then why not join with them and worship with them? and if more want to join that's thier choice. totally. now you can bring up history and say people have died because they wouldn't join a religion. but there's no need. i'm aware of the fact that many people have been needlessly slaughtered by horrible religious fanatics. and i, as a christian, would like to (if possible) take the blame completely on myself (since i do associate with the same group of people as those murderers did) and apologize on behalf of my God, (who disdains hate and murder and force feeding of the religion he started) for what his confused and slightly over zealous but well intending children have done. and apologize on behalf of those over zealous children for what they have done. and if i could also take a punishment for them and therefore pay thier debts and make it better, i would without a second thought.
christians have done bad things. but christ and his bride, the Church have never sinned.
the deal with my particular religion is that somebody already thought of my system of beliefs years ago. and other people already joined with them. it's not institutionalized, it's just that they've been "bound together" by choice for thousands of years and happen to all have the same "specific system of belief and worship." but really, some people feel like maybe they were force fed on a religion. but it was just that it's a parents job to raise a kid, and how the parents believe is how they want thier kids to believe because they believe it to be correct and right. (sorry about the run-on sentence there )
and the people of the church, they just were of the notion that the kid believed in the same things as them, so they tried to make sure the kid knew what was considered wrong and right in this particular belief system. they meant well. give them credit for that. but if a person grows up and decides to change. why hold any type of animosity or bitterness in thier heart towards what they once were? they did change successfully right?
so why do i need an institutional church? i don't need it. that's a common mistake when people look at christians. they think we are inslaved, when many of us chose this as freely as others choose other things. i don't need it, as i said, i just choose to go along with the billions (and yes, there's that many catholics, we're the largest religion in the world) of people who agree with me totally about the concept of an all loving and generous creator. i'm not forced to follow dogma and rules, i choose to. God is very very clear about the fact that he gave us free will because he wants us to love him because of our own choice. sometimes man misinterprets that. but just because there are bad people in a church, does that mean you leave it? no! why? because if you are perfect, you have no need to ever go to church. but if you're not perfect. if you happen to be a person who sins and makes mistakes....hospitals are for the imperfect of body, churches are for the imperfect of the soul. nobody is perfect (except me....just kidding).
so yes, i can be connected to god myself. and i am. and since i feel so connected to him, i choose to go to church. now i don't make it every sunday. but i always have the intention. i'm not going to hell for not going to church.
and...(said in a very un-offending tone of voice ) who says i need a priest to be a christian? i don't. no catholic does. priests just happen to be people that love God so much they want to spend thier whole life serving him in every way they can. and priests, they aren't perfect either. they are human too. and God makes it very clear that for every sin they commit against him, they will pay for double what other people would. because people look up to them, and if they mislead (which sometimes they do) then they must pay for that too.
and in my religion, yes i'm a son of God like christ was, but unlike christ, i'm not God. christ was 100% god and 100% man. i am just 100% man.
but uh, also (SERIOUSLY, no offense intended) you are a little misinformed. christ in fact did tell us to go to church. many times. he refers to the church. "when any of you have a dispute, take it to the elders (priest comes from the word priestos meaning elder, also the word presbyter means the same thing) of the church". and when paul was persecuting the christian church, christ said, "paul, why do you persecute me?" also jesus speaks of law. "the law and the prophets were until john; since then the good news of the kingdom of God is preached, and every one enters it voilently. but it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away, than for one dot of the law to become void. (law: sometime, study up on jewish law and how they did thier ceremonies, then watch a catholic mass. you'd be amazed at the similarities.) yes, jesus set up a church on earth, in relationship with the church of heaven. and he wishes us to attend, because the mass is the closest thing to heaven we will get on earth.
and the catholic religion has been around for not just 2002 years...it's been around as long as people have worshipped God, because it's not a replacement for judiaism, it's a fullfillment of their old testament prophecies. so God worshippers (now called christians) have been around since the beginning of time.
just my view on it though. i'm not trying to change anybodies mind here, i just seek to be understood along with billions of other christians who are indeed misunderstood and therefore persecuted. i seek to change no minds because a mind changed against it's will... is of the same opinion still. just remember, notice everything, because it's the small things in life, that hinder God's light.

christianity is a religion of love and peace and tolerance. when anybody doesn't act like that but claims christianity, just think of them as baby christians who have not come to a full understand of thier faith, so just smile and nod when they try to convert you. but keep in mind, it is a big part of our religion to spead the word and information about it, it's just some people confuse "spead" with "force".






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OfflineMAIA
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Re: whiterastahippie [Re: whiterastahippie]
    #764535 - 07/21/02 11:43 AM (21 years, 10 months ago)

"i think the word religion gets used wrong."

Yes it's true and you aren't using it right. There's not such thing as a christian religion, there are religions and doctrines based on christian beliefs. Protestants, ortodoxs, evangelics and catholics are religions because they have and need rituals to make a connection with god, on the other hand doctrines like christian rationalism don't have such need of rituals, they use other tools like meditation and spiritual exploration to achieve that same connection but all of them share the same christian principle. This principle can be seen as a way of life, so the christian comunity is seen as a social system. Like it or not, religious or not, most of us living in countries with a majority of christian tend to aquire most of those principles thru the society and not thru religion.
Saying that you follow a religion but you don't compromise following the rituals is like getting married but not going home. To say you're a catholic you have to compromise like in a relationship. Each partner to the relationship has to feel an initial desire for such a relationship. From this desire the partner explores the other, tries to become acquainted and causes the other to become acquainted. Such a desire has to start and grow in total freedom. Manipulating and compelling the other kills the relationship. In this there cannot be any compromise, so if you're Catholic you should go to the church.
That manipulation exist by the hand of the church itself, the institution church is responsible for one of the most black periods of western history. The greed of man and those in command made it possible and Christ message was used to control man rather to free man, to me there's no excuse for such an action. Even today the church uses many ways to control people but the main way will always be using fear, i mean why they still say they are the true religion and the only salvation ? Why not the others ? People have fear believing stuff like that, it messes with many spiritual questions, such questions should have conforting and enlightning answers not dogmas.

"christians have done bad things. but christ and his bride, the Church have never sinned."

Sorry, but this kind of dogmatics statements do not compute anymore. I don't need the explanation of the catholic church about Christ brides to achieve anything, i can start counting all sins the church did the last 1000 years and i asure you the bride can't wear white. I mean, why do you believe it never sinned ? Because they figured out Peter was the rock and the bride was the church ? What about figuring out about union and understanding between religions ? What about luxury and power they show ? What about the poor little kids being sodomized ? Things like this get me worried and they are some of the reasons i abandoned all religions.


MAIA


--------------------
Spiritual being, living a human experience ... The Shroomery Mandala



Use, do not abuse; neither abstinence nor excess ever renders man happy.
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Offlinewhiterastahippie
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Re: whiterastahippie [Re: MAIA]
    #764616 - 07/21/02 12:28 PM (21 years, 10 months ago)

okay. and if i respond in any way will it even matter? and if i don't will you think you've "won"? things you say, i've addressed, but to address them again is a matter of simply repeating myself. you say i can't be a catholic and not go to church? okay.
wait...why not? if i'm a catholic trapped on a deserted island with no church do i go to hell? i said i go when i can.
i'm not using the word religion right? well, i don't even come close to following you when you say that. because i think i do use it right. i can't even begin to see where you are coming from.
there's not such thing as christian religion? um. riiiight. didn't the dictionary say that a system of beliefs IS a religion? that's what i got out of it, but maybe my grasp of the english language isn't that great. i haven't been speaking it my whole life, just since about two when i learned to talk. i don't thing the dictionary said you HAD to have rituals to have a religion. it simply said a system of beliefs. and you think there is no meditation in catholocism? oh. my. god. what is it when you close your eyes for a long period of time and think about things? what's that word? oh yeah! meditation! yeah we do that every time we close our eyes and do something we call "praying". the rosary is a form of meditation too. yeah, in fact, while you say the prayers, you are supposed to meditate on the mysteries of faith. you think we have no spiritual exploration? um. i'm just dropping that one. completely.

by the way...if i seem rude, i don't mean to, i'm not mocking you i'm just a huge smart ass. i actually like the way you address my issues. and man do i have issues

back to the topic at hand.
Saying that you follow a religion but you don't compromise following the rituals is like getting married but not going home. To say you're a catholic you have to compromise like in a relationship. Each partner to the relationship has to feel an initial desire for such a relationship. From this desire the partner explores the other, tries to become acquainted and causes the other to become acquainted. Such a desire has to start and grow in total freedom. Manipulating and compelling the other kills the relationship. In this there cannot be any compromise, so if you're Catholic you should go to the church.
you are so right. good call. all i was saying is that if i don't make it to church because i can't. i'm not going to hell.
That manipulation exist by the hand of the church itself, the institution church is responsible for one of the most black periods of western history. The greed of man and those in command made it possible and Christ message was used to control man rather to free man, to me there's no excuse for such an action. Even today the church uses many ways to control people but the main way will always be using fear, i mean why they still say they are the true religion and the only salvation ? Why not the others ? People have fear believing stuff like that, it messes with many spiritual questions, such questions should have conforting and enlightning answers not dogmas.

we are responsible for all those bad things? (ahem) can i get a little proof as to how the church was responsible for the dark ages? proof please? no hearsay?
i was under the impression that the fall of the roman empire and the rise of barbarians to power was responsible for the dark ages...but hey, all i did was study history for a long hard intense time before i became catholic. now there is a book called "roman catholocism" by l. boettner. and if you happened to get any of your information from it, then it is false, just because half of the book is made up. false. because this guy hated catholics more than he hated his mother.
one big problem is that most anti catholic propaganda and lies come from authors who read this book of falsifications, then wrote their own books of falsifications. you really really have to be careful where your information comes from.
like say....hmmmm....many many of the things that are attributed to the church aren't the church at all. like the inquisition? oh it was horrible! if it had been the church, then we would have been so wrong...good thing it was actually the spanish government and not the church itself. and many other things that happened that were so bad were cardinals or priests or whoever else acting freely of the church or just totally in rebellion to the church.
in fact, the only "sins toward humanity" as it is so often put, that the church actually did, was the crusades. and there's more about that then you think.
listen, don't leave peter because of judas.


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Re: whiterastahippie [Re: whiterastahippie]
    #766260 - 07/21/02 11:59 PM (21 years, 10 months ago)

You're not rude but you seem to systematicaly disregard many diferent perpectives. The defenition you find in your dictionary isone between many defenitions, so what is a religion ?
1. The question may be understood as a request for a comprehensive descriptive definition. Such definitions are harder to produce that might be imagined, and those that are offered often betray various degrees of cultural (including religious) bias. The difficulty of producing satisfactory 'descriptive' definitions may suggest that the term religion applies to a wider variety of cultural phenomena than is capable of being comprehended in a single definition. 2. A more dynamic approach to answering the question is to provide what may be called an analytical or heuristic definition, which seeks to identify the various elements within religions (or a religion). This is typically done by identifying various 'aspects' or 'dimensions' of religion and, through or beyond this, by analysing the relationship between these aspects or dimensions.
3. Another way of dealing with the question is by seeking to identify some common or essential element manifested by religion. Quite apart from taking for granted that there must be some one essence or element there to be identified, the attempt to produce an essentialist definition of religion poses the obvious danger of reducing religion to one element in particular (perhaps as part of an attempt to judge or justify religion in some way).
4. A further type of response to the question is to produce what may be called a hermeneutic definition, such as implies or leads to an explanation or theory of religion. In effect the question 'What is religion?' is translated as 'What is the meaning of religion?' or 'What is the origin of religion?'. Such definitions are quite legitimate provided they do not attempt to disguise themselves as purely descriptive definitions.
5. A fifth response to the question is for a writer to make it clear what he will understand religion to mean for a particular purpose or in a particular context, making use of a working or provisional definition without claiming for it any wider or universal significance. Such definitions will not necessarily differ in form from any other type of definition.

The explanation of "what is religion" and its meaning cannot be reduced to a dictionary reference, look at several defenitions already used,

In reply to:


Recognition on the part of man of some higher unseen power as having control of his destiny, and as being entitled to obedience, and worship." (Oxford English Dictionary 1971)

"The relationship which humanity establishes with the divinity through worship; a specific group of beliefs, moral laws and cultic practices whereby humanity establishes a relationship with the divine." (Grand Larousse de la langue fran?ais, 1971)

"The essence of religion consists in a feeling of absolute dependence. . ." (Frederick Schleiermacher, (1768-1834) The Doctrine of Faith)

E. B. Tylor, thought that "it seems simplest . . . simply to claim, as a minimum definition of religion, the belief in Spiritual Beings." (Primitive Culture, 1871)

"By religion, then, I understand a propitiation or conciliation of powers superior to man which are believed to direct and control the course of Nature and human life." (Sir James George Frazer, The Golden Bough, 1890)

"the first ideas of religion arose not from a contemplation of the works of nature, but from a concern with regard to the events of life, and from the incessant hopes and fears, which actuate the human mind." (David Hume, (1711-1776) "The Natural History of Religions" )

"All ideas and feelings are religious which refer to ideal existence, an existence that corresponds to the wishes and requirements of the human mind." (W. Wundt, Ethics)

"A man's religion is that set of objects, habits, and convictions . . . which he would die for rather than abandon, or at least he would feel excommunicated from humanity if he did abandon." (H. Bosanquet, "Philosophy of Religion", in Baldwin's Dictionary)

Religion is "an hypothesis which is supposed to render the Universe comprehensible. . . . Now every theory tacitly asserts two things: first that there is something to be explained; secondly that such and such is the explanation . . . that the existence of the world with all it contains is a mystery ever pressing for interpretation . . . [and] that it is not a mystery passing human comprehension." (Herbert Spencer, (1820-1903) First Principles)

Religion is "a pathological manifestation of the protective function, a sort of deviation of the normal function . . . caused by ignorance of natural causes and of their effects." (G. Sergi, Les Emotions, 404)

"Religious life consists of the belief that there is an unseen order and that our supreme good lies in harmoniously adjusting ourselves thereto." (William James, The Varieties of Religious Experience, 53, 1902)

"A religion is a unified system of beliefs and practices relative to sacred things, that is to say, things set apart and forbidden - beliefs and practices which unite into one single moral community called a church, all who adhere to them." (Emile Durkheim, The Elementary Forms of the Religious Life)

"The psychic origin of all religious thought, is the recognition, or, if you please, the assumption, that conscious volition is the ultimate source of all Force. It is the belief that behind the sensuous, phenomenal world, distinct from it, giving it form, existence, and activity, lies the ultimate, invisible, immeasurable power of Mind, of conscious Will, of Intelligence, analogous in some way to our own; and,--mark this essential corollary--that man is in communication with it." (Daniel G. Brinton, "Religions of Primitive Peoples")

"Religion is a means of ultimate transformation. In this definition the focus is on the religious character of human awarenesss, which includes at least two elements: ultimacy and effective power. When we ask, why is one action 'good' and another 'bad'? or Why does man suffer? or Why does man reflect on his nature?, we are seeking a certain kind of answer. ... If we want to understand the religious answers to the above questions, then we must become sensitive to the assumptions behind religious answers; and one of these assumptions is that there is more to life than just physical existence. It is this 'more than' character to which our term 'ultimate' points." (Frederick Streng, Understanding Religious Life, 4)

[The claim] "that there is a Beyond or an Unborn, and that this is somehow accessible to the religious experience of the human race, and is not just a philosophical speculation or a theory about the world." (Ninian Smart, Beyond Ideology)

"On the theoretical side [religion] is characterized by a world-view which denies the adequacy of the world of the senses and affirms the existence of a transcendental world, conceived both as highest existence and highest value. On the practical side, it consists in the passage from things of this world to a conception and experience of the reality of the transcendent world, and thus to salvation from the world." (Hermann Siebeck, Lehrbuch der Religionsphilosophie)

"Religion is a human response to mystery. . . . not as a deadly emptiness, but somehow as a reality in which lies the meaning of human existence. . . . The response to the mystery as fullness is religion. In general, religion is a way of relating to mystery as a sacred or divine reality rather than as useless or meaningless." Michael H. Barnes, In the Presence of Mystery, 1f.

"To be, or to become, human means to be religious." (Mircea Eliade, The Quest)

"One's religion . . . is one's way of valuing most intensively and comprehensively." (Frederick Ferr?, "The Definition of Religion." Journal of the American Academy of Religion 38, no.1 (1970): 11.)

"A religion is: (1) a system of symbols which acts to (2) establish powerful, pervasive and long-lasting moods and motivations in men by (3) formulating conceptions of a general order of existence and (4) clothing these conceptions with such an aura of factuality that (5) the moods and motivations seem uniquely realistic." (Clifford Geertz, "Religion as a Cultural System")

"Religion is a cultural system and a social institution that governs and promotes ideal interpretations of existence and ideal praxis with reference to transempirical powers or beings." Armin Geertz, "Theory, Definition, and Typology," Temenos 33 (1997), 39. (Note that by "ideal" Geertz seems to mean perfect or ultimately desirable rather than mental or non-material--from a reading of this paper at the World Congress of Philosophy, Boston, August 11th, 1998.)

Finally perhaps "the sustained inability to clarify what the word 'religion' signifies, in itself suggests that the term ought to be dropped; that it is a distorted concept not really corresponding to anything definite or distinctive in the objective world. The phenomena we call religious undoubtedly exist. Yet perhaps the notion that they constitute in themselves some distinctive entity is an unwarranted analysis" (Wilfred Cantwell Smith, The Meaning and End of Religion, 17). But he goes on to say that this is too extreme a conclusion, "an alternative suggestion could be that a failure to agree on definitions of religion may well stem from the quality of the material. For what a man thinks about religion is central to what he thinks about life and the universe as a whole. The meaning that one ascribes to the term is a key to the meaning that one finds in existence" (18).





All of us are religious persons, even if we don't believe in anything above we are defining ourselfs religiously by rejecting religion. Some believe in institutionalized religions such as the catholic religion, others define and create their own religion (it's not creating a personal god but creating a personal belief) and there are some wich don't believe in anything.

"and you think there is no meditation in catholocism? "

I didn't say that ! I said christian rationalism prefer using meditation rather than prayers, i know catholics also meditate but they give greater importance to prayers, they mumble countless prayers, repeating the same words over and over wasting their thoughts and souls and seeking salvation by using repetitiveness to achieve a spiritual state instead of trying to understand the spiritual state itself. To me, religion is merely a set of beliefs held dogmatically to be the one right answer, catholics believe in answers like "church is the only salvation", "confessing forgive their sins", "praying gets you closer to god", dogmas !

"can i get a little proof as to how the church was responsible for the dark ages? proof please? no hearsay?"
"good thing it was actually the spanish government and not the church itself. "

You're way off the truth, i live next to Spain and i know (i've visited torture chambers wich existed in my country) it was the church, why do you say you read history when you actually show no knowlodge ?
For a glimpse of the atrocities committed by the Roman Catholic religion, do a net search on the Inquisition or the Crusades. During the Inquisition, the Catholic religion killed millions. Why? Primarily to suppress any and all opposition to the pope. Side "benefits" included taking the material wealth of its victims and showing the pope's power. The Catholic Inquisitors tortured, crippled, burned, and imprisioned millions of people. Whatever happened to love your enemies? (Matthew 5:44)

So, let's review how this bloodthirsty organization treated a man who simply wanted to get the Bible into the hands of the common people. In the late 1300s John Wycilf translated the scriptures from the Latin Vulgate. Some 40 odd years after his death, the Catholic religion dug up his bones and burned them calling him an arch-heretick. In the 1500's William Tyndale sought to translate the Bible into the language of the common people, English. He could not gain approval from the Catholic religon so he worked as an outlaw on the run in Europe, translating the Bible. He was eventually captured, condemned and executed in 1536. It is because of people like these men, Tyndale and Wycliffe, that we have the scriptures today. If the Catholic religion had its way, we'd still be in ignorance about the Bible and enslaved to the pope. Time fails me here to tell of other marytrs like John Hus, John Rogers, etc. who were killed by popish persons.

I have done some search (as my grandfather did) trying to explain why the church and all it represents are based in falsities. I'll list the catholic tradition first and then what the Bible has to say about the matter.

In reply to:


* * * *
CATHOLIC TRADITION - Call priests father, e.g., Father McKinley.

WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS -

Matthew 23:9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.
* * * *
CATHOLIC TRADITION - Forbidding the priesthood to marry.

WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS -

1) It is devilish to forbid God's people to marry when He has given marriage to be received with thanksgiving.
1 Timothy
4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
4:2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
4:3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.

2) Peter was married (remember the pope is supposedly continuing the apostolic line through Peter).

Matthew
8:14 And when Jesus was come into Peter's house, he saw his wife's mother laid, and sick of a fever.

Mark
1:30 But Simon's wife's mother lay sick of a fever, and anon they tell him of her.

Luke
4:38 And he arose out of the synagogue, and entered into Simon's house. And Simon's wife's mother was taken with a great fever; and they besought him for her.

3) Paul, a great apostle, remained single; however he made it very clear that he could marry if he wanted to.

1 Corinthians
9:5 Have we not power to lead about a sister, a wife, as well as other apostles, and as the brethren of the Lord, and Cephas?

* * * *
CATHOLIC TRADITION - Mary never had other children after the Lord Jesus. A perpetual virgin.

WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS - Mary and Joseph indeed had children. They were the Lord's half brothers and sisters for their father was Joseph and mother was Mary.

Matthew
13:55 Is not this the carpenter's son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas?
13:56 And his sisters, are they not all with us? Whence then hath this man all these things?
Mark
6:3 Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, the brother of James, and Joses, and of Juda, and Simon? and are not his sisters here with us? And they were offended at him.

* * * *
CATHOLIC TRADITION - Mary is the queen of heaven.

WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS - Worshipping the queen of heaven (which is not the Mary of the Bible) is worshipping another god and it provokes the Lord to anger.

Jeremiah
7:17 Seest thou not what they do in the cities of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem?
7:18 The children gather wood, and the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead their dough, to make cakes to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto other gods, that they may provoke me to anger.
7:19 Do they provoke me to anger? saith the LORD: do they not provoke themselves to the confusion of their own faces?

* * * *
CATHOLIC TRADITION - Mary is the mother of God.

WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS - Mary is the mother of the earthly Jesus, not God. Jesus pre- existed from everlasting as God (see John 1:1). When He came to redeem mankind, He laid aside His glory and was made like unto sinful man so that He could take our punishment (Hebrew 2:9). God has no mother. He has lived from everlasting which means He had no beginning.

Isaiah
43:10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. [If Mary gave birth to God, she'd be God.]
Psalm
93:2 Thy throne is established of old: thou art from everlasting.

Micah
5:2 But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler [Jesus] in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.

Philippians
2:6 Who [Jesus], being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

* * * *
CATHOLIC TRADITION - Pope called Holy Father.

WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS - The term Holy Father is only found one time in the entire Bible. It was when Jesus prayed before He and His disciples went to the garden of Gethsemane. He referred to God the Father as Holy Father. It is blasphemy to call a man by God's name

John
17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
* * * *
CATHOLIC TRADITION - Purgatory, nuns, popes.

WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS - None of these is mentioned in the Bible. It is a sin to add to the Bible.

Proverbs
30:6 Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.
The pope is a man who takes upon himself honor which belongs to no human being. Even the very name by which he allows himself to be called (Holy Father) is highly presumptuous and blasphemous (see above).

One does not need the pope to determine what God's will is. The Bible says that God has given the Holy Ghost to each believer and that He (the Holy Ghost) guides and leads us into all truth. All a believer needs is the Bible and the Holy Ghost to know the will of the Lord. Popery has been treacherous, but worse, each pope has been the blind leading the blind. Jesus said that both will fall into the ditch. Catholics, come out of this system that cannot save and know Jesus for youself, intimate and up-close.

NOTE: Purgatory is supposedly a place where a person is purified of sins--even popes supposedly go there. The Bible says that Jesus Christ is the one that purifies us of our sins. Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus.... When a person dies their eternal home is sealed--heaven or hell--no in between. Hebrews 9:27 ...it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment.

* * * *
CATHOLIC TRADITION - Venerating/worshipping images. Pope bows to statues of Mary, people worship the eucharist and have statues/candles in their homes and churches.

WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS - It is idolatry to venerate images. We are not even supposed to make them.

Exodus
20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
20:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God...
* * * *
CATHOLIC TRADITION - The mass. Through transubstantiation, the wafer/host and the wine supposedly become the actual blood and body of Jesus Christ when the priest prays over them.

WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS - Jesus died once for sins, never to be repeated. He sits on the right hand of God and does not reappear in the mass as a mass of blood and flesh.

Hebrews
10:12 But this man [Jesus], after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
10:13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
10:15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
10:17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
10:18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.
John
19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

1 Corinthians
11:24 And when he [Jesus] had given thanks, he brake it [bread], and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.
11:25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.
11:26 For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come (not for the forgiveness of sins or to receive Jesus).

* * * *
CATHOLIC TRADITION - Saved, in part, by good works.

WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS - Good works are the fruits that grow out of being saved. They do not make you saved. An apple does not make its tree an apple tree, it was already an apple tree before any apples appeared. When you see the apples; however, you know what kind of tree it is. If a person is saved, he will shew forth good works because he has the spirit of Christ in him. The good works don't make him saved only the blood of Jesus can do that.

I John
1:7b ...the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
Acts 16:31b
...believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved.

Romans
3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
3:26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

What about James 2:20 "faith without works is dead"?

The kind of faith that saves is a faith that shows forth the works of God. Even devils believe in Jesus and tremble (James 2:19). Many people believe in Jesus but they won't follow Him. They have a faith, but not the kind that saves. If a person has true faith in Jesus, the Holy Ghost dwells in him and will cause good works will show forth in his life. The good works confirm the faith by which the person was saved. James 2:21-23 uses Abraham as an example. Abraham believed God so when God asked him to sacrifice his son Isaac, Abraham, out of his faith in God, offered up Isaac.


* * * *
CATHOLIC TRADITION - The church is founded on Peter.

WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS - Jesus Christ is the foundation of the church. Peter was a man like you and me. Jesus called Peter Satan in Matthew 16:23 when Peter rebuked Jesus dying. When Cornelius tried to worship Peter, Peter responded, "Stand up; I myself also am a man." (Acts 10:26). The pope needs to remember Acts 10:26 when he has men bowing to him and kissing his hand like he is worthy of worship.

1 Corinthians
3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
Matthew
21:42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected [Jesus], the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?

* * * *
CATHOLIC TRADITION - Confessing sins to a priest. Petitioning saints and Mary.

WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS - We are to confess our sins and needs to God alone.

I John
1:9 If we confess our sins, he [God] is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
Matthew
6:9, 12 After this manner...pray ye: Our Father... forgive us....

1 Timothy
2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus [not Mary, not saints, not priests, not the pope];

I John 2:1, ...And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.






There are many other scriptures that could have been used here to testify against the doctrines of the catholic religion. There are also many other doctrines of the catholic religion which could have been refuted (e.g. the sacraments, receiving the Holy Ghost, salvation through the catholic religion, penance, rosary, etc.).
The Catholic religion has a history of taking the money of poor widows in order to say masses for the dead (which do no good) and collecting the material possessions of nuns. In Italy, the heart of Roman Catholicism, there is an often used saying that goes, "Without money, they don't sing the mass." That is really pitiful on several fronts--1) mass is blasphemous and people who trust in it are hell-bound 2) there's no such thing as purgatory and 3) the gift of God is without price.
Roman Catholicism today is probably the wealthiest government in the world. It owns a good share of America's hospitals and has healthy real estate interests. The bottom line is, if you are christian and you want to get right with God , you have to go through His Son, Jesus Christ, not some religious organization.
I hope you understand this facts, try to be more rational about what people want to make you believe in as freedom of mind should be the primary resource.

MAIA


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Spiritual being, living a human experience ... The Shroomery Mandala



Use, do not abuse; neither abstinence nor excess ever renders man happy.
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Offlinewhiterastahippie
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Re: whiterastahippie [Re: MAIA]
    #766796 - 07/22/02 07:12 AM (21 years, 10 months ago)

i get it, the plan is to bombard me with so many things that i can't possibly respond without taking three or four hours out of my day?
you do realize that when a child builds a castle out of blocks, it takes hours sometimes, but when another child comes to tear it down, it takes no time or effort at all. so uh, you gonna be the second child huh? in the yaers i've been debating on the internet, i've come across each and every one of these points you bring up. i don't mean to systematically disregard what you say. it's just that when you get the same falsifications about the church from every person (because, like i said, they all come from just about the same source originally) then it turns into a system. you want me to think of new answers every time? i could, but that would mean people need to bring something new and actually true against the catholic church. new allegations, new responses. it's simple. so now we are to get into the bible huh? bible is actually easier for me than other things because if you take the verses other people have taken out of context, and put them BACK in context. it totally changes their meaning. so thus, (give me a little time) i begin.


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Anonymous

Re: whiterastahippie [Re: whiterastahippie]
    #766823 - 07/22/02 07:34 AM (21 years, 10 months ago)

I appreciate your posts but I want to drop this little turd into this thread because I think it warrants it:




Keep arguing guys. Some people have nothing better to do.

Cheers,

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OfflineMAIA
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Re: whiterastahippie [Re: whiterastahippie]
    #766952 - 07/22/02 08:27 AM (21 years, 10 months ago)

"bible is actually easier for me than other things because if you take the verses other people have taken out of context, and put them BACK in context. it totally changes their meaning."

Sure, you give the meaning the church has conceived for the bible words, i "try" to understand the bible as a whole but try to explain it using specific transcriptions. The book is not a science book from where you can take precise conclusions (although the church has already done it before), when i read the bible i read it open minded, directing the message to myself, without any "alien" point of view, it should be read that way because it teaches, show emotions and attitudes, it shows life as it is, not as others want to make you see life. If you control the meaning of "the word", you control life of those who believe in "the word". So it's easy to control people that way, the church have done so with success it seems.

9Then Jesus said, "He who has ears to hear, let him hear."
10When he was alone, the Twelve and the others around him asked him about the parables. 11He told them, "The secret of the kingdom of God has been given to you. But to those on the outside everything is said in parables 12so that,
" 'they may be ever seeing but never perceiving,
and ever hearing but never understanding;
otherwise they might turn and be forgiven!'[1] "

Was the church the only one that trully perceived and understood the message ?

MAIA


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Offlinewhiterastahippie
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Re: whiterastahippie [Re: MAIA]
    #767028 - 07/22/02 08:52 AM (21 years, 10 months ago)

this is a long post yes, but if you skip down to the bottom, my apologies are there. maia? we might wanna continue this via email. or agree to disagree. if you get inot history and religion, long post can't be avoided.

first, it's okay for me to disreegard other ways of thinking, as long as i give logical proof to back up why i believe they are wrong. i'm not at all saying these things are wrong for you. i'm just telling you my personal and quite possibly wrong opinion. it's all good, this is just a philosophy workshop, in which many people come together to share and debate idea's.

second, we're going to have to agree to disagree on the deffinition of what religion is. because yes, that may be those peoples opinions on what religion is, but what makes them an authoritative source? i only use the dictionary deffinitions because it's short, concise, and agreed on by most of the general populace. also, i believe that in your plethora of deffinitions that range in date and author...there were quite a few that contradicted each other. but i digress. to me it doesn't seem we will get far with that without just going in circles. i do like the way you think though, very analytical. it'd be much more fun sitting over a cup of coffee at starbucks though. that's the perfect place for debates.
now this:

All of us are religious persons, even if we don't believe in anything above we are defining ourselfs religiously by rejecting religion. Some believe in institutionalized religions such as the catholic religion, others define and create their own religion (it's not creating a personal god but creating a personal belief) and there are some wich don't believe in anything.

i agree with to an extent. i just don't believe catholics are instituionalized like you think. just because thier buildings are old and they have had thousands of years to work out a system that fits for the people who adhere to it, doesn't mean institution.

I didn't say that ! I said christian rationalism prefer using meditation rather than prayers, i know catholics also meditate but they give greater importance to prayers, they mumble countless prayers, repeating the same words over and over wasting their thoughts and souls and seeking salvation by using repetitiveness to achieve a spiritual state instead of trying to understand the spiritual state itself. To me, religion is merely a set of beliefs held dogmatically to be the one right answer, catholics believe in answers like "church is the

prayer is meditation. really. the more repetitive the better for meditation purposes.
when you repeat something over and over while meditating fiercely in your mind, it produces a very deep state of trance. every heard of those tribesmen...crap! damn it...name name...uh...whirling durbishes? dirbishes? something like that. but my spelling is all wrong. i have a tape set that goes into meditation by jeff salzmen Ph.D. that name may be spelled wrong. anyway he talks about all the different types of meditation that mankind has developed. yoga. just sitting and thinking. the catholic prayers. the whirling...whatever that word is...and others. and he is very clear on why these all work very well for meditation...or self hypnosis.

catholics believe in answers like "church is the only salvation",

not true, but okay. YOU might have believed that, but it's not what the church teaches. find it in the catachism, which is a statment of what we believe (not another bible) everything we believe is in there. "salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven, given to man, by which we must be saved." now that sounds like what the church teaches.
not preaching, just defending. your beliefs are good for you.

let's give a foundation for what i'm saying. showing no knowledge? don't speak so fast. it's good to think about what you say before you say it.

You're way off the truth, i live next to Spain and i know (i've visited torture chambers wich existed in my country) it was the church, why do you say you read history when you actually show no knowlodge ?

I. THE SUPPRESSION OF HERESY DURING THE FIRST TWELVE CENTURIES

(1) Though the Apostles were deeply imbued with the conviction that they must transmit the deposit of the Faith to posterity undefiled, and that any teaching at variance with their own, even if proclaimed by an angel of Heaven, would be a culpable offense, yet St. Paul did not, in the case of the heretics Alexander and Hymeneus, go back to the Old Covenant penalties of death or scourging (Deut., xiii, 6 sqq.; xvii, 1 sqq.), but deemed exclusion from the communion of the Church sufficient (1 Tim., i, 20; Tit., iii, 10). In fact to the Christians of the first three centuries it could scarcely have occurred to assume any other attitude towards those who erred in matters of faith. Tertullian (Ad. Scapulam, c. ii) lays down the rule:

Humani iuris et naturalis potestatis, unicuique quod putaverit colere, nec alii obest aut prodest alterius religio. Sed nec religionis est religionem colere, quae sponte suscipi debeat, non vi.
In other words, he tells us that the natural law authorized man to follow only the voice of individual conscience in the practice of religion, since the acceptance of religion was a matter of free will, not of compulsion. Replying to the accusation of Celsus, based on the Old Testament, that the Christians persecuted dissidents with death, burning, and torture, Origen (C. Cels., VII, 26) is satisfied with explaining that one must distinguish between the law which the Jews received from Moses and that given to the Christians by Jesus; the former was binding on the Jews, the latter on the Christians. Jewish Christians, if sincere, could no longer conform to all of the Mosaic law; hence they were no longer at liberty to kill their enemies or to burn and stone violators of the Christian Law.
St. Cyprian of Carthage, surrounded as he was by countless schismatics and undutiful Christians, also put aside the material sanction of the Old Testament, which punished with death rebellion against priesthood and the Judges. "Nunc autem, quia circumcisio spiritalis esse apud fideles servos Dei coepit, spiritali gladio superbi et contumaces necantur, dum de Ecclesia ejiciuntur" (Ep. lxxii, ad Pompon., n. 4) religion being now spiritual, its sanctions take on the same character, and excommunication replaces the death of the body. Lactantius was yet smarting under the scourge of bloody persecutions, when he wrote this Divine Institutes in A.D. 308. Naturally, therefore, he stood for the most absolute freedom of religion. He writes:

Religion being a matter of the will, it cannot be forced on anyone; in this matter it is better to employ words than blows [verbis melius quam verberibus res agenda est]. Of what use is cruelty? What has the rack to do with piety? Surely there is no connection between truth and violence, between justice and cruelty . . . . It is true that nothing is so important as religion, and one must defend it at any cost [summ? vi] . . . It is true that it must be protected, but by dying for it, not by killing others; by long-suffering, not by violence; by faith, not by crime. If you attempt to defend religion with bloodshed and torture, what you do is not defense, but desecration and insult. For nothing is so intrinsically a matter of free will as religion. (Divine Institutes V:20)
The ecclesiastical ideas of the first five centuries may be summarized as follows:

the Church should for no cause shed blood (St. Augustine, St. Ambrose, St. Leo I, and others);
other teachers, however, like Optatus of Mileve and Priscillian, believed that the State could pronounce the death penalty on heretics in case the public welfare demanded it;
the majority held that the death penalty for heresy, when not civilly criminal, was irreconcilable with the spirit of Christianity.

you know, i realize that the some bishops acting freely of the church killed people who were considered heretics, but if you know ( i'm not saying you don't) anything at all about history. not goverment jilted versions of it, then you would know that torture and death for petty things was a sign of the times. that's what people did. and the church was populated by people. eventually the church led humanity out of those horrible barbaric habits, but when it first started, it could just MAKE every change. that's not our way. in fact, during the middle ages people preferred ecclesiastic courts to civil courts because their punishments were actually less harsh. yeah, we had torture chambers. but everybody else had more. understand?

St. Augustine (Ep. c, n. 1), almost in the name of the western Church, says: "Corrigi eos volumus, non necari, nec disciplinam circa eos negligi volumus, nec suppliciis quibus digni sunt exerceri" -- we wish them corrected, not put to death; we desire the triumph of (ecclesiastical) discipline, not the death penalties that they deserve. St. John Chrysostom says substantially the same in the name of the Eastern Church (Hom., XLVI, c. i): "To consign a heretic to death is to commit an offence beyond atonement"; and in the next chapter he says that God forbids their execution, even as He forbids us to uproot cockle, but He does not forbid us to repel them, to deprive them of free speech, or to prohibit their assemblies. The help of the "secular arm" was therefore not entirely rejected; on the contrary, as often as the Christian welfare, general or domestic, required it, Christian rulers sought to stem the evil by appropriate measures. As late the seventh century St. Isidore of Seville expresses similar sentiments (Sententiarum, III, iv, nn. 4-6).
How little we are to trust the vaunted impartiality of Henry Charles Lea, the American historian of the Inquisition, we may here illustrate by an example. In his History of the Inquisition in the Middle Ages" (New York, 1888, I, 215), He closes this period with these words:

It was only sixty-two years after the slaughter of Priscillian and his followers had excited so much horror, that Leo I, when the heresy seemed to be reviving in 447, not only justified the act, but declared that, if the followers of a heresy so damnable were allowed to live, there would be an end to human and Divine law. The final step had been taken and the church was definitely pledged to the suppression of heresy at any cost. It is impossible not to attribute to ecclesiastical influence the successive edicts by which, from the time of Theodosius the Great, persistence in heresy was punished with death.
In these lines Lee has transferred to the pope words employed by the emperor. Moreover, it is simply the exact opposite of historical truth to assert that the imperial edicts punishing heresy with death were due to ecclesiastical influence, since we have shown that in this period the more influential ecclesiastical authorities declared that the death penalty was contrary to the spirit of the Gospel, and themselves opposed its execution. For centuries this was the ecclesiastical attitude both in theory and in practice. Thus, in keeping with the civil law, some Manichaeans were executed at Ravenna in 556. On the other hand. Elipandus of Toledo and Felix of Urgel, the chiefs of Adoptionism anti Predestinationism, were condemned by and councils, but were otherwise left unmolested. We may note, however, that the monk Gothescalch, after the condemnation of his false doctrine that Christ had not died for all mankind, was by the Synods of Mainz in 848 and Quiercy in 849 sentenced to flogging and imprisonment, punishments then common in monasteries for various infractions of the rule.
About the year 1000 Manichaeans from Bulgaria, under various names, spread over Western Europe. They were numerous in Italy, Spain, Gaul and Germany. Christian popular sentiment soon showed itself adverse to these dangerous sectaries, and resulted in occasional local persecutions, naturally in forms expressive of the spirit of the age. In 1122 King Robert the Pious (regis iussu et universae plebis consensu), "because he feared for the safety of the kingdom and the salvation of souls" had thirteen distinguished citizens, ecclesiastic and lay, burnt alive at Orl?ans. Elsewhere similar acts were due to popular outbursts. A few years later the Bishop of Chalons observed that the sect was spreading in his diocese, and asked of Wazo, Bishop of Li?ge, advice as to the use of force: "An terrenae potestatis gladio in eos sit animadvertendum necne" ("Vita Wasonis", cc. xxv, xxvi, in P. L., CXLII, 752; "Wazo ad Roger. II, episc. Catalaunens", and "Anselmi Gesta episc. Leod." in "Mon. Germ. SS.", VII, 227 sq.). Wazo replied that this was contrary to the spirit of the Church and the words of its Founder, Who ordained that the tares should be allowed to grow with the wheat until the day of the harvest, lest the wheat be uprooted with the tares; those who today were tares might to-morrow be converted, and turn into wheat; let them therefore live, and let mere excommunication suffice St. Chrysostom, as we have seen, had taught similar doctrine. This principle could not be always followed. Thus at Goslar, in the Christmas season of 1051, and in 1052, several heretics were hanged because Emperor Henry III wanted to prevent the further spread of "the heretical leprosy." A few years later, In 1076 or 1077, a Catharist was condemned to the stake by the Bishop of Cambrai and his chapter. Other Catharists, in spite of the archbishops intervention, were given their choice by the magistrates of Milan between doing homage to the Cross and mounting the pyre. By far the greater number chose the latter. In 1114 the Bishop of Soissons kept sundry heretics in durance in his episcopal city. But while he was gone to Beauvais, to ask advice of the bishops assembled there for a synod the "believing folk, fearing the habitual soft-heartedness of ecclesiatics (clericalem verens mollitiem), stormed the prison took the accused outside of town, and burned them.
in most cases, it was not the church that killed the "heretics", but the people, stray bishops working free from the churches authority, and civil authorities.
The people disliked what to them was the extreme dilatoriness of the clergy in pursuing heretics. In 1144 Adalerbo II of Li?ge hoped to bring some imprisoned Catharists to better knowledge through the grace of God, but the people, less indulgent, assailed the unhappy creatures and only with the greatest trouble did the bishop succeed in rescuing some of them from death by fire. A like drama was enacted about the same time at Cologne. while the archbishop and the priests earnestly sought to lead the misguided back into the Church, the latter. were violently taken by the mob (a populis nimio zelo abreptis) from the custody of the clergy and burned at the stake. The best-known heresiarchs of that time, Peter of Bruys and Arnold of Brescia, met a similar fate -- the first on the pyre as a victim of popular fury, and the latter under the henchmans axe as a victim of his political enemies. In short, no blame attaches to the Church for her behavior towards heresy in those rude days. Among all the bishops of the period, so far as can be ascertained, Theodwin of Li?ge, successor of the aforesaid Wazo and predecessor of Adalbero II, alone appealed to the civil power for the punishment of heretics, and even he did not call for the death penalty, which was rejected by all. who were more highly respected in the twelfth century than Peter Canter, the most learned man of his time, and St. Bernard of Clairvaux? The former says ("Verbum abbreviatum", c. lxxviii, in P.L., CCV, 231):

Whether they be convicted of error, or freely confess their guilt, Catharists are not to be put to death, at least not when they refrain from armed assaults upon the Church. For although the Apostle said, A man that is a heretic after the third admonition, avoid, he certainly did not say, Kill him. Throw them into prison, if you will, but do not put them to death (cf. Geroch von Reichersberg, "De investigatione Antichristi III", 42).


During the first three decades of the thirteenth century the Inquisition, as the institution, did not exist. But eventually Christian Europe was so endangered by heresy, and penal legislation concerning Catharism had gone so far, that the Inquisition seemed to be a political necessity. That these sects were a menace to Christian society had been long recognized by the Byzantine rulers. As early as the tenth century Empress Theodora had put to death a multitude of Paulicians, and in 1118 Emperor Alexius Comnenus treated the Bogomili with equal severity, but this did not prevent them from pouring over all Western Europe. Moreover these sects were in the highest degree aggressive, hostile to Christianity itself, to the Mass, the sacraments, the ecclesiastical hierarchy and organization; hostile also to feudal government by their attitude towards oaths, which they declared under no circumstances allowable. Nor were their views less fatal to the continuance of human society, for on the one hand they forbade marriage and the propagation of the human race. and on the other hand they made a duty of suicide through the institution of the Endura (see CATHARI). It has been said that more perished through the Endura (the Catharist suicide code) than through the Inquisition. It was, therefore, natural enough for the custodians of the existing order in Europe, especially of the Christian religion, to adopt repressive measures against such revolutionary teachings.

In France Louis VIII decreed in 1226 that persons excommunicated by the diocesan bishop, or his delegate, should receive "meet punishment" (debita animadversio). In 1249 Louis IX ordered barons to deal with heretics according to the dictates of duty (de ipsis faciant quod debebant). A decree of the Council of Toulouse (1229) makes it appear probable that in France death at the stake was already comprehended as in keeping with the aforesaid debita animadversio. To seek to trace in these measures the influence of imperial or papal ordinances is vain, since the burning of heretics had already come to be regarded as prescriptive. It is said in the "Etablissements de St. Louis et coutumes de Beauvaisis", ch. cxiii (Ordonnances des Roys de France, I, 211): "Quand le juge [eccl?siastique] laurait examin? [le suspect] se il trouvait, quil feust bougres, si le devrait faire envoier ? la justice laie, et la justice laie le dolt fere ardoir. "The "Coutumes de Beauvaisis" correspond to the German "Sachsenspiegel", or "Mirror of Saxon Laws", compiled about 1235, which also embodies as a law sanctioned by custom the execution of unbelievers at the stake (sal man uf der hurt burnen). In Italy Emperor Frederick II, as early as 22 November, 1220 (Mon. Germ., II, 243), issued a rescript against heretics, conceived, however quite in the spirit of Innocent III, and Honorius III commissioned his legates to see to the enforcement in Italian cities of both the canonical decrees of 1215 and the imperial legislation of 1220. From the foregoing it cannot be doubted that up to 1224 there was no imperial law ordering, or presupposing as legal, the burning of heretics. The rescript for Lombardy of 1224 (Mon. Germ., II, 252; cf. ibid., 288) is accordingly the first law in which death by fire is contemplated (cf. Ficker, op. cit., 196). That Honorius III was in any way concerned in the drafting of this ordinance cannot be maintained; indeed the emperor was all the less in need of papal inspiration as the burning of heretics in Germany was then no longer rare; his legists, moreover, would certainly have directed the emperors attention to the ancient Roman Law that punished high treason with death, and Manichaeism in particular with the stake. The imperial rescripts of 1220 and 1224 were adopted into ecclesiastical criminal law in 1231, and were soon applied at Rome. It was then that the Inquisition of the Middle Ages came into being.

What was the immediate provocation? Contemporary sources afford no positive answer. Bishop Douais, who perhaps commands the original contemporary material better than anyone, has attempted in his latest work (LInquisition. Ses Origines. Sa Procedure, Paris, 1906) to explain its appearance by a supposed anxiety of Gregory IX to forestall the encroachments of Frederick II in the strictly ecclesiastical province of doctrine. For this purpose it would seem necessary for the pope to establish a distinct and specifically ecclesiastical court. From this point of view, though the hypothesis cannot be fully proved, much is intelligible that otherwise remains obscure. There was doubtless reason to fear such imperial encroachments in an age yet filled with the angry contentions of the Imperium and the Sacerdotium. We need only recall the trickery of the emperor and his Pretended eagerness for the purity of the Faith, his Increasingly rigorous legislation against heretics, the numerous executions of his personal rivals on the pretext of heresy, the hereditary passion of the Hohenstaufen for supreme control over Church and State, their claim of God-given authority over both, of responsibility in both domains to God and God only etc. What was more natural than that the Church should strictly reserve to herself her own sphere, while at the same time endeavouring to avoid giving offence to the emperor? A purely spiritual or papal religious tribunal would secure ecclesiastical liberty and authority for this court could be confided to men of expert knowledge and blameless reputation, and above all to independent men in whose hands the Church could safely trust the decision as to the orthodoxy or heterodoxy of a given teaching. On the other hand, to meet the emperors wishes as far as allowable, the penal code of the empire could be taken over as it stood (cf. Audray, "Regist. de Gr?goire IX", n. 535).


alright, do you see what i mean when i say that it takes more to build up then to tear down? one can say, " the church killed people! look at the torture chambers!!" and then in defense, the defender would have to bring up so much more evidence just to prove the accuser wrong. i realize other people read this post. and making them to long is no fun for anyone.
so i'm assuming you really research things before you say them because you seem very smart and intelligent. i will give you a site that goes through the inquisition from start to finish. yes some people were killed, but no the ways you think, and not as many as you think...and sometimes it was because the heretics themselves were murderers. now if you are just argueing to argue, and you honestly won't look this information up, please tell me because i don't want to waste anybodies time or piss them off. then again, maybe we could continue this via email. it's up to every one else reading this really. i don't care either way. i love debates as long as tempers stay nice and iced and cool.

i'm not even responding to the rest of your stuff right now. bring me one thing at a time and we'll discuss, and if you prove me wrong, i will change my belief...i think you did prove me wrong on a couple of points about what religion actually is. not totally, but i have lot's to think about and i appriciate that greatly. you a pretty cool dude. now here's the site on the inquisition:

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08026a.htm#II

now this site is a catholic site, yes. i still believe the information to be true. i personally don't like dicussing or history or basing predjuidices on things i've heard about history because almost all historians lie out thier ass. at least for the small things the church has done wrong, we admit it freely. it's just people who hate the church say that we've done more. in fact, some people say so much i laugh...but those are usually anti catholic fanatics and televangilist.

and dude. i'm sorry, the rest of what you say is so falsified....are you sure you were ever catholic? i mean, those scripture quotes are out of context. i mean, just one for example. anybody who is a catholic and knows what he believes knows that preists are not forrbidden to marry, they CHOOSE not to, it's a practice. not a dogma. have you even cracked open a catechism? you throw the word DOGMA around so much, yet you don't even know what our DOGMA'S are.
i'm going to do laundry. i'll chat atcha later. and uh....God bless dude, seriously.


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Offlinewhiterastahippie
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Re: whiterastahippie [Re: whiterastahippie]
    #767065 - 07/22/02 09:06 AM (21 years, 10 months ago)

maia. the church wrote the bible. i can tell you the year, and where...but i won't, we're talking about the inquisition here. you think jesus came down here with a pen and paper? useing the bible against the church is like taking a man's arm and beating him with it. besides, the bible clearly states (in one of those many verses people skip over in timothy) that the church is the final authority and also that verbal (galations) tradition is just as important as written. it also states that no part of the bible, small or large, is a matter of ones own interpretation. (peter) the bible is a small part of a large faith. but other faiths have taken it and made it into their whole faith. but it's all good. don't matter to me i'm just here. havin' a good time. damn i need a joint. i gotta go. here's my email so we can finish this in private. sublimechill@yahoo.com
plato dude, argueing on the internet is honing skills for use with real people. it's really cool! it's like a debate practice machine. you type in things and it comes back with answers! wow! lol...you are right though. like i said before, a mind changed against it's will is of the same opinion still. but it's a hobby. just like mary jane and norml and guitar and shrooms. debating is a hobby too. it's just so great because all your info to back up your words are right at the tip of a mouse click.



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OfflineMAIA
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Re: whiterastahippie [Re: whiterastahippie]
    #767450 - 07/22/02 11:12 AM (21 years, 10 months ago)

"damn i need a joint"

I've just smoked one to read your damn long post ! I take to long to type when i smoke this stuff so i think i'll skip my reply till tomorow, gonna check the guys over the lan party right now .

MAIA


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Spiritual being, living a human experience ... The Shroomery Mandala



Use, do not abuse; neither abstinence nor excess ever renders man happy.
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OfflineMAIA
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Re: whiterastahippie [Re: ]
    #767458 - 07/22/02 11:17 AM (21 years, 10 months ago)

I just love that pic man.
Peace to Josh...

MAIA


--------------------
Spiritual being, living a human experience ... The Shroomery Mandala



Use, do not abuse; neither abstinence nor excess ever renders man happy.
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Anonymous

Re: whiterastahippie [Re: MAIA]
    #768073 - 07/22/02 03:03 PM (21 years, 10 months ago)

Thanks. I think it is one of the best things I have ever seen on the net.

Josh? What is that about?

Cheers,

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Offlinewhiterastahippie
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Re: whiterastahippie [Re: ]
    #768615 - 07/22/02 06:09 PM (21 years, 10 months ago)

dude. plato. that is a cool ass pic. hey maia! your post wasn't to short itself.
hey, i think we should all stop argueing about religion and be rastafarian. they so happy in jamaica.


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Anonymous

Re: The Bible and the clergy [Re: whiterastahippie]
    #768686 - 07/22/02 06:31 PM (21 years, 10 months ago)

whiterastahippie:

You started off rambling on about Hitler, Stalin, the KKK, Gothic people and atheists. Talk about hate, it seems you were bringing a bit forth yourself in trying to equate these various characters with me. You then went on to state, "i KNOW WHAT I BELIEVE AND DON'T BLINDLY FOLLOW THE CLERGY" I think that's a good idea, especially seeing as this thread is entitled, 'The Bible and the clergy.' You then carried on with the following, which I shall address...


DUDE...understand me here for two seconds. yeah you, the one who is bashing so hard. pull your head out of your ass and look around...
'Pull your head out of your ass,' that's a very Christian thing to say. I'm sure Jesus Christ would have responded the same way.


. you think what you are saying is original...
Hmm, another mind reader. When did I say or imply that what I have said is original?


i used to think it was too.
You project your own qualities onto me, why do you do this?


people don't want to hear what i have to say. they want to bash because it makes them feel good...until they hear the response, then they get even more mad, use even bigger words...sometimes even resorting to a dictionary so as to sound even more intelligent...
This is a curios response, both you and Why are apparently intimidated by people who have a decent grasp of the English language, and insist on projecting your own traits on others in an attempt to understand their natures. I am not like you. It doesn't make sense to assume this without more information to go on than one thread on The Shroomery.


you should chill, and try to see some other peoples point of view. it helps alot. i mean, some of the things you've said about the catholic church. oh my god! they are so far out there and wrong. lol. i mean, it's no surprise, it's typical anti catholic propaganda.
I have seen things from a different point of view, how do you know that I haven't? Is it because your views and mine are not shared? My ideas and opinions have changed through the years, I suspect they will continue to evolve as I continue to go through life.


as the band stroke 9 put it;
Anger is todays fashion statment, so let's sing another song about bashing someones head in....
he's 14.

You seem to be parroting Why's fanciful notions about what kind of person I am. Repeating misconceptions does not make them valid.


Is this the same mode of thinking that you use in coming to conclusions about religion? Make a quick assumption based on your own prejudices and maintain your assumptions with no further attempt to understand what you don't know. This is the apparent line of reasoning you have used to construct your mental model of me. Your reasoning is seriously flawed in this instance (understanding another human), what makes you think it works better when addressing the weightier task of understanding the nature of all that is?

that is so fucking hypocritical dude. lol. you have done exactly that. exactly. you have made assumptions about christians (they have to be because most aren't true) and then held to them with no further attempt to understand what YOU don't know. you so obviously don't even know what christians believe.

Reading comprehension: I stated, 'This is the apparent line of reasoning'. Notice the word 'apparent.' I do understand Christians, having been one myself.


. you must be getting your info from other people instead of going to the source. wanna know what we believe? find out from the horses mouth. AND NO DON'T FIND SOME 12 YEAR OLD AND SCARE THE SHIT OUT OF HIM TRYING TO PROVE HIS FAITH WRONG more like, get a catholic catechism. read it. get doctrinal staments froms other churches. read them...
...then don't talk about us. until you know what we believe as WE see it. not as you and your cronies do. then don't talk about us. until you know what we believe as WE see it. not as you and your cronies do. then you have NO (repeat) NO *NO* right to talk about us. at ALL

Let's see, is 13 years of Catechism enough for you? How about going to Catholic church at least 2 times a week during those 13 years in addition to the years before and after that? How about being baptized, receiving my First Holy Communion and the Sacrament of Confirmation in the Catholic Church? How about serving as an alter boy? How about my aunt the nun? I would really like to know, who are my 'cronies?'


so dude.
you wanna go little boy? (vroom vroom)

Oh, the old 'I'm older than you and more mature so I know more than you' school yard taunt. I believe Why also alluded to this concept. Too bad it doesn't hold water.


Well, you finally got into the law of the conservation of energy in an attempt to present your reasoning behind a belief in God. I accept that there is the unexplained. I just don't accept your dogma. I see no need to buy into a shrink wrapped belief system full of contradictions, old mythologies, human wishes for an after life and an anthropomorphic description of the unknown just so I can have an explanation that I can relate to and take comfort in the idea that I am not mortal. I'm also wise enough to see how the hierarchy of Churches and the clergy have greatly abused the trust put in them by their flocks in the past, and are doing so in the present, and I'm sure they will continue doing this in the future.

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Offlinewhiterastahippie
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Re: The Bible and the clergy [Re: ]
    #768765 - 07/22/02 06:52 PM (21 years, 10 months ago)

you think jesus wouldn't have said what i said? hey, yo, i'm not jesus. i follow him, but with my free will, i choose to do some bad things sometimes. i can do that. but uh...no, i'm not going in circles with you. been there. just gonna say. "okay"

it's all good dude, i bet you post everything with a chuckle and a smile. seriouslly some times the most somber sounding people on the internet have the greatest sense of humor. so yeah, i get a little miffed when people seem to bash something and so i in turn bash. very hypocrytical of me. my apologies. maybe you weren't even bashing maybe it's just how you talk i don't know. i don't know anything about you. so who am i to judge eh? please accept my apologies. can we smoke a j and make it better dude? at least i got my beliefs stated. i just should have done it a better way. peace!


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Peace and Love to all!

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OfflineGanja_Farmer
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Re: The Bible and the clergy [Re: whiterastahippie]
    #768891 - 07/22/02 07:38 PM (21 years, 10 months ago)

I think the shaving of water came before the selling of shoes.


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Offlinewhiterastahippie
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Re: The Bible and the clergy [Re: Ganja_Farmer]
    #769447 - 07/23/02 03:15 AM (21 years, 10 months ago)

ya braa, your a stoner man. i know this because i hit my bong, and that made sense to me. with sensi everythin makes some sense! and that's a huge marley braa! if i had money and skins that big i would so do that and toke that spliff all the way down man . nothing more beautiful than weed. see, really, everything is made up of molecules and atoms...so deep down everything's all the same, and everything is one, so therefore we are the same as weed and one with it.


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Peace and Love to all!

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Offlinewhy
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Re: The Bible and the clergy [Re: ]
    #769824 - 07/23/02 07:21 AM (21 years, 10 months ago)

Sorry, I'm not a victim.

Your a victim of "teenage rebellion syndrome". Although sufferer's are vaguely aware that "nonconformity is conformity", that don't believe that applies to them as they 'think for themselves'. Victims also exhibit a steadfast belief that no one understands them. Other symptoms include a mix of insecurity and vanity, and a tendency to be argumentative.



Don't worry, most people grow out of it sooner or later!

The point you made is that where I came to an opinion based on ignorance, you came to the same conclusion threw knowledge and free thinking:

May be you might have had similar opinions to what I expressed earlier in this thread, but that hardly qualifies you to state that you have thought in the same way as I do now

Do I believe you are immature and know very little because you hold a different opinion to me? Certainly not.

I believe you don't know what your talking about because of the kind of arguments you use.

Your first post looked like it had been written by a kid who had been reading the Satanic Bible. (which is why I asked you if you had read it)

What have you said since then that might convince me my first impression of you was wrong?

As far as being 'more genuinely spiritual' than I am, if you mean making wishes to and attempting to massage the ego of a mythical invisible amorphous gaseous being with the temperament and manners of a spoiled child

It would be ridiculous to believe that God is an "amorphous gaseous being" . It is just as ridiculous to think that other people believe in a God like that! In this one statement you have proved you just don't have a clue what your talking about. A good place to start for a Christian "concept" of God is 'Mystica Theologia' by Pseudo Dionysius.

What else have you had to say?

What have the clergy done in the name of their supposed 'truth?' Hmm, lets ask some alter boys and their experiences in the rectumry with the clergy


This is such a low level of argument I'm not even going to comment on it other than to say you know yourself that this is very far from being an intelligent point.


If you really were any different to the way I used to be, then you would be using more intelligent arguments than the one's I used to use wouldn't you?

For a good attack on Christianity see 'The Anti-Christ' by Friedrich Nietzche. Maybe you have read some of his books? thats the kind of author I imagine you might have an interest in. (more mind reading... well, I was right about the Satanic Bible)

In a few years time you will look back on the way you are now and laugh about it. Maybe you will even take the other side of the argument with someone someday... you have my best wishes.

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Offlinemandlebrot
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Re: The Bible and the clergy [Re: erectronik]
    #772994 - 07/24/02 10:18 AM (21 years, 10 months ago)

Christianity is a wretched corrupt religion. It should be despised for spreading the curse and guilt of Jewish morality to the western world. Where you have a religion that claims that salvation is by faith alone, is there any surprise when it almost completely disregards all spiritual development of the individual?

For a religion of slaves, any development of the individual is poison. It is subversive to the power of the Church.

For proof of it's corruption you only need look at the place of it's conception, not in the womb of the virgin(!) mother of God, but in the messianic fantasies of the Jewish people. The Jews at that time lived under the occupation of Rome. If there is anything more arrogant than the Christian belief that they have the only way to salvation, then it is the Jewish belief that they are God's chosen people. (Some heretical Gnostic sects believed that the God of the Old Testament was evil, how could anyone think otherwise?) The Jewish national ego could never tolerate living under Roman occupation. In a climate of political unrest Jesus Christ steps onto the stage just when the prophesied messiah is needed most. He was not the wanted revolutionary, "give unto Caesar what is Caesar's, and give unto God what is God's." Christ's answer wasn't to resist occupation, but to accept the life of the slave. In all likelihood, he was probably one of many people at that time teaching eastern religious philosophy borrowed from India. The parables of Christ as reported in the Bible were stolen almost word for word from Buddhist sources such as the Dhammapada and Udanavarga! Elements of his biography given in the gospels are also taken straight out of the life of the historical Buddha Siddhattha Gotama. It is hard to believe that this religion guilty of such plagiarism could claim itself to be unique, could claim itself to be the *ONLY* way to salvation!

It would have been harmless had it not been diluted, misrepresented and reabsorbed back into a Jewish theological framework and become the perversion that Christianity is. The repression of Gnostic sects in the early centuries A.D. was intended to destroy the influence of eastern mysticism. In effect, the priests conspired to murder the soul of their own religion. All that was left when they were finished was a wasteland of theology and doctrine created for the purpose of power. The books chosen for inclusion in the Bible were chosen for church political, rather than spiritual reasons. The Bible, the supposed word of God, is the word of man trying to reinforce his own control.

Christianity's ideas of sin and redemption have been a neurotic plague upon the world. The Christian's arrogance is more than matched by their feeble mindedness in being able to accept such absurdities as truth. At no point does Christian mythology connect with reality, it is a self supporting delusion. It is worse than opiate addiction, at least the addict has enough self knowledge to know he's slowly killing himself.

What could be more immature than needing a saviour?

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Anonymous

Re: The Bible and the clergy [Re: mandlebrot]
    #773010 - 07/24/02 10:25 AM (21 years, 10 months ago)

Careful there Mandlebrot, somebody might take your words as an attempt to blow down their house of cards (and they're livin' on the second floor).

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Offlinewhiterastahippie
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Re: The Bible and the clergy [Re: ]
    #773192 - 07/24/02 11:28 AM (21 years, 10 months ago)

if christians are so bad, then why not be better by being more loving, more patient, more kind and less preachy than all the christians out there? you will never change a christians mind about his or her religion by saying things like that. no matter how they may or may not ring true. christians believe what they believe just as strongly as you do.
killing happens in wars,
wars come from strong words or actions,
strong words or actions are started by one,
one is controlled by his mind and thoughts.
be careful what you say, for people may listen, and in the future, your words may be the cause for wars, and millions of deaths.
are you a murderer?
in order to change a christian, you must show them you are better. not tell them you are better, for my braa, actions always speak louder than words. especially words such as these. don't be the babylon. be the love. and people will eventually follow.
peace peace and more peace, and when you are done. love.
do christians preach my friend? of course they do. i have. i do. and i kick myself everytime. so if you hate their preachings, show them how much better you can be.
do christians hurt you with their beliefs and strong voilent words, my braa? then show them how much better you are by taking the beating, and then turning to them and saying." thank you for this lesson".
returning a hit for a hit will only get a strike in return. but returning a kiss for a hit, will win you much much more.

"one love, one light, let's get together and feel alright" - bob marley.


--------------------
Peace and Love to all!

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Offlinellib
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Re: The Bible and the clergy [Re: whiterastahippie]
    #773801 - 07/24/02 03:18 PM (21 years, 10 months ago)

i am a christian, but not like you might describe a christian, namely i am immersed in the common theme. the course in miracles describes it the best, unconditional love and the move back towards and undoing so many of the true and false miscreations that we have made as humans as we have drifted away from the spiritual state.

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OfflineZahid
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Re: The Bible and the clergy [Re: mandlebrot]
    #773939 - 07/24/02 04:19 PM (21 years, 10 months ago)

Christianity's ideas of sin and redemption have been a neurotic plague upon the world. The Christian's arrogance is more than matched by their feeble mindedness in being able to accept such absurdities as truth. At no point does Christian mythology connect with reality, it is a self supporting delusion. It is worse than opiate addiction, at least the addict has enough self knowledge to know he's slowly killing himself.

How is it worse than opiate addiction? Religious people live an average of 7 years longer then non-religious people. Religious people hardly suffer from depression or anxiety, and many people are able to escape an addiction (drugs, alcohol) by becoming a religious person. I think you're the one harbouring the self supporting delusion. Your ideals have no connection with the reality of the consciousness behind faith.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: The Bible and the clergy [Re: Zahid]
    #774118 - 07/24/02 05:13 PM (21 years, 10 months ago)

Religious people live an average of 7 years longer then non-religious people.
Such as the religious Bosnian Christians killing the religious Bosnian Muslims?

Such as the religious Irish Catholic Christians killing the religious Irish Protestant Christians?

Such as the religious Palestinians killing the religious Israelis?

And vice versa?

I guess those heretics and Witches have a shorter life span BECAUSE of tolerant Christians...

Please give a link to your study of longer life for the religious.

Religious people hardly suffer from depression or anxiety,
Please post a link or study to back this up. Not true in my limited experience. If depression is indeed a form a mental illness due to serotonin imbalance, then this is completely false.

...and many people are able to escape an addiction (drugs, alcohol) by becoming a religious person.
And many overcome it by getting into sports, career, marriage, etc. Again, post your references.


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Offlinewhiterastahippie
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Re: The Bible and the clergy [Re: Swami]
    #774312 - 07/24/02 06:21 PM (21 years, 10 months ago)

my God's better than your God's neener neener neener!
i am rubber you are glue, whatever you say bounces off me and sticks to you!!!


--------------------
Peace and Love to all!

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Offlinewhy
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Re: The Bible and the clergy [Re: Zahid]
    #775476 - 07/25/02 08:18 AM (21 years, 10 months ago)

I think you're the one harbouring the self supporting delusion

maybe, but I think mandlebrot had some good points.

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InvisibleAutonomous
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Re: The Bible and the clergy [Re: Zahid]
    #775536 - 07/25/02 08:50 AM (21 years, 10 months ago)

If a man should use his intellect, he would have no need for clerics. Relying on the theological interpretations of another and refusing to question unprovable notions proclaimed in religious texts is the sign of a lazy mind.


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"In religion and politics people's beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second-hand, and without examination."
-- Mark Twain

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Offlinewhiterastahippie
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Re: The Bible and the clergy [Re: Autonomous]
    #776034 - 07/25/02 11:57 AM (21 years, 10 months ago)

man me rasta's, chill about what or how you should worship your god, and just worship him. i bet he's dying to hear from you.


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Peace and Love to all!

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OfflineZahid
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Re: The Bible and the clergy [Re: Swami]
    #776453 - 07/25/02 03:34 PM (21 years, 10 months ago)

People (Christians, Jews, Muslims) do no represent what God is. Nor do they represent the religion that they follow, especially when both you and I know these faiths condemn random unprovoked acts of violence. Unfortunately, some people pervert religion to carry out horrific deeds and suggest it had the blessing of a greater power. Until you completely understand the Gospel, the Torah, the Qur'aan, (reading the holy texts, making analysis), your opinion is only that of an outside observer. The reality is that religion is getting bigger, and bigger, the more people, as you know, the grater chance of a bad seed.

Autonomous:
If a man should use his intellect, he would have no need for clerics. Relying on the theological interpretations of another and refusing to question unprovable notions proclaimed in religious texts is the sign of a lazy mind.

You should know that the world is a place of great deception. Disbelief is a result of deception. Same thing with what suicide bombers believe, is a deception. When Christian knights slaughtered Arab Muslims in Palestine centuries ago, it was a deception - they thought what they were doing was right. You'll have no plea of ignorance. Breaking through deception is a sign of spiritual strength, and spiritual intelligence. In faith you'll find not so smart believers (some of them might blow themselves up to kill non-believers) and very intelligent believers who are often mystics. In a-theistic people, you'll find not so smart non believers who simply bash faith, but you'll also find smart non believers who attempt to explain the psychology of every believer in the world with a theory or two, or even three.


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Edited by Zahid (07/25/02 03:50 PM)

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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: The Bible and the clergy [Re: Zahid]
    #777119 - 07/25/02 08:21 PM (21 years, 10 months ago)

You should know that the world is a place of great deception. Disbelief is a result of deception....

{{to the tune of toMAYto toMAHto}}
"You say DE-ception... I say decep-TION...
Let's call the whole thing off..."


Breaking through deception is a sign of spiritual strength, and spiritual intelligence.

It's easy to say that pushing aside the wool is a virtue, but actually doing so takes much more persistence. It's too bad they're so many lazy people around.

In a-theistic people, you'll find not so smart non believers who simply bash faith, but you'll also find smart non believers who attempt to explain the psychology of every believer in the world with a theory or two, or even three.

Believers in ATHEISM?? Isn't this a contradiction?
They say they DON'T BELIEVE... and you turn that into "they believe that they don't believe." Whatever.

As for the psychology comment... seems like you're a little biased in your appraisal of atheists.
"or simply bash faith"
- sounds negative (that's okay, you're applying some sort of dichotomy, NEXT)

"who attempt to explain the psychology of every believer in the world with a theory or two, or even three."
- also sounds negative
"attempt" implies that their position can't work, in principle (since we're dealing with principles and so forth).
"even" belittles their "attempts" even further.

If you're going to go the black&white route (simple dichotomization as you've done here), then maybe you should treat all "belief" systems with the same courtesy as you treat your own (and the other Abrahamic faiths).


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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Offlinewhiterastahippie
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Re: The Bible and the clergy [Re: Sclorch]
    #777251 - 07/25/02 10:04 PM (21 years, 10 months ago)

hey braa, atheism means no god, not don't believe. and is a belief in itself.
but peace...
zahid my brother, even though our religions have fought for centuries, (catholics and muslims) i want you to know that i respect you very very deeply for the way you explain things and your faith. btw, did you ever catch it back in 2000 when the pope in an attempt at peace, went and prayed along side muslim brothers in their mosk's? he even kissed a qu'ran in a gesture of respect. i thought that was coo' man.


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Peace and Love to all!

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Offlinewhiterastahippie
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Re: The Bible and the clergy [Re: Sclorch]
    #777409 - 07/25/02 11:11 PM (21 years, 10 months ago)

. Formal Anti-Theism

Had the Theist merely to face a blank Atheistic denial of God's existence, his task would he comparatively a light one. Formal dogmatic Atheism is self-refuting, and has never de facto won the reasoned assent of any considerable number of men. Nor can Polytheism, however easily it may take hold of the popular imagination, ever satisfy the mind of a philosopher. But there are several varieties of what may be described as virtual Atheism which cannot be dismissed so summarily.

There is the Agnosticism, for instance, of Herbert Spencer, which, while admitting the rational necessity of postulating the Absolute or Unconditioned behind the relative and conditioned objects of our knowledge declares that Absolute to be altogether unknowable, to be in fact the Unknowable, about which without being guilty of contradiction we can predicate nothing at all, except perhaps that It exists; and there are other types of Agnosticism.

Then again there is Pantheism in an almost endless variety of forms, all of which, however, may be logically reduced to the three following types:

the purely materialistic, which, making matter the only reality, would explain life by mechanics and chemistry, reduce abstract thought to the level of an organic process deny any higher ultimate moral value to the Ten Commandments than to Newton's law of gravitation, and, finally, identify God Himself with the universe thus interpreted (see MATERIALISM; MONISM);
the purely idealistic, which, choosing the contrary alternative, would make mind the only reality, convert the material universe into an idea, and identify God with this all-embracing mind or idea, conceived as eternally evolving itself into passing phases or expressions of being and attaining self-consciousness in the souls of men; and
the combined materialistic-idealistic, which tries to steer a middle course and without sacrificing mind to matter or matter to mind, would conceive the existing universe, with which God is identified, as some sort of "double-faced" single entity.


--------------------
Peace and Love to all!

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Offlinemandlebrot
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Re: The Bible and the clergy [Re: Zahid]
    #778031 - 07/26/02 08:07 AM (21 years, 10 months ago)

I said:

At no point does Christian mythology connect with reality

Zahid said:

I think you're the one harbouring the self supporting delusion. Your ideals have no connection with the reality of the consciousness behind faith.

Without resort to heresy, explain the "reality of the consciousness behind faith" for the meaning of the atonement.

I'm not asking you to describe what is ineffable, merely to tell me how the symbol links to reality.

Monistic mysticism and denial of the unique divinity of christ are both heresy by the way.

I offer the same challenge to whiterastahippie.

or are you full of shit?

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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: The Bible and the clergy [Re: mandlebrot]
    #778126 - 07/26/02 08:39 AM (21 years, 10 months ago)

or are you full of shit?

Take it easy there tiger. False dilemmas of that sort will surely deafen your listener. There could be another explanation......


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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OfflineReeferMan
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Re: The Bible and the clergy [Re: Sclorch]
    #778182 - 07/26/02 09:14 AM (21 years, 10 months ago)

You are all here bitching at eachother and all saying the same thing i dont get it. If reality is different for eveybody what is the point of arguing then. Why not just except that my beleifs are different from yours and yours are different from everybody elses. I am not targeting anyone and i am not trying to preach anything. Who is to say what is right and wrong. Just have your beliefs, stand by them and dont judge others for having different ones. Its that easy. This world would be a better place once we all learned to see thta we are all fuckin different and that is what makes it so special. Instead of fighting about the pope and god and jesus just except the fact that for some these people are the top of their lives. For others they mean nothing more than chips and salsa. But why should anyone be condemed for what they believe. Thats the question i pose to all of you? We have enough people trying to keep us from smoking kaya and eating shrooms, is it right to fight amongst ourselves when we are the only ones that feel ganja and shrooms and whatever else are okay for the world. Lets try to be a community that is tolerant of others rather than one that argues about the belief system each of us holds. Love is supreme and that is all that matters. No matter what religon you are i know that they all teach love and happiness of those around you is priority over everything else.

PEACE BE THE JOURNEY

"One Love"- BOB MARLEY


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The superior man is modest in his speech, but exceeds in his actions.

~Confucius (551-479 B.C.) Confucian Analects

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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: The Bible and the clergy [Re: ReeferMan]
    #778245 - 07/26/02 09:49 AM (21 years, 10 months ago)

hmmmm....

I think we've hit this point before reeferman. I think your intentions are admirable, but certain belief systems do not agree with your "let things be, just be cool" attitude. So, I guess you're arguing FOR your stance AGAINST their stance??
See the problem?

As for the community issue...
I think we ARE a rather tolerant community. Most posts are quite civil. The fact that we're even bothering to interface with eachother says something about our community. If we were so intolerant, every post might end with one of those brilliant conversation stoppers such as "Fuck you, shut up!"


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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Offlinewhiterastahippie
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Re: The Bible and the clergy [Re: ReeferMan]
    #778263 - 07/26/02 09:57 AM (21 years, 10 months ago)

reefer man, you my braa. why this fussin' and a fightin'? i wanna know man. now it is good to share your perspective of reality with others gently, just for entertainmetns sake and, who knows, when you sahre, somebody may start to follow your way of thinking.
it is when brothers get violent with each other that is bad. so harsh. so combative. no need for this my friends. no need at all.
and mandlebrot my braa. i am sorry to say i refuse your challenge. for i will have nothing to do with arguements and challenges. i sometimes get sucked into them. sometimes for days at a time. but whenever i sit back and think. i realize i don't want to be fightin' or fussin'. so no. i deny your challenge. now if you have brotherly questions for me man, i will answer them as best i can to my knowledge.
peace man.


--------------------
Peace and Love to all!

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OfflineReeferMan
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Re: The Bible and the clergy [Re: Sclorch]
    #778326 - 07/26/02 10:30 AM (21 years, 10 months ago)

Sclorch i get what you are saying man. I know we hit this point everytime an argument breaks out in the shroomery. I am just saying it is hard for me to understand how we can fight amongst ourselves and use such violent words to eachother when the only people that accept our actions in life are right here in the shroomery. If i went out and told everybody i use ganja for my religon or use shrooms to expand my sub concious mind they would laugh at me and tell me i am crazy. It just gets to me because we are all here because we all do have something in common at the shroomery and fighting about shit we cant control gets us nowhere and only starts to degrade the only community that we can go for questions and answers about the things we care about concerning drugs anyway. This is the only group of people i have found yet that except me for my habits and i am happy for that. It may be a failed attempt to create a little peace here in the forum. But nothing ever got accomplished by sitting back and just watching others. Anyway back to the point of this post. It really is sad to see a religon that so many depend on like Catholosim and see how it has gone downhill. Like everything in life i think the leaders of that religon need to change some things and soon before a lot of people lose their faith and the only thing theuy belive in. Peace!!! Thanks for the reply to my first post too.

"One Love" BOB MARLEY


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The superior man is modest in his speech, but exceeds in his actions.

~Confucius (551-479 B.C.) Confucian Analects

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Offlinewhiterastahippie
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Re: The Bible and the clergy [Re: ReeferMan]
    #778382 - 07/26/02 11:12 AM (21 years, 10 months ago)

reefer man, if that was so true i recommend my brother, a deeper study of the catholic faith. for are you not aware that people ar joining the church in record numbers? more people are joining the church now than they have in hundreds of years. there are so many converts it's unreal (i'm one). this whole thread is based on assumptions about the church. not facts.


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Peace and Love to all!

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InvisibleSwami
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Re: The Bible and the clergy [Re: Sclorch]
    #778500 - 07/26/02 12:29 PM (21 years, 10 months ago)

ToMAYto is OBVIOUSLY the "correct" pronunciation and I will fight anyone who says differently!


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The proof is in the pudding.

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OfflinePaleE
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Re: The Bible and the clergy [Re: erectronik]
    #778540 - 07/26/02 12:58 PM (21 years, 10 months ago)

Clergy...Lawyers...
pretty much the same thing...
Kinda like some oh-so-insucure-God-loves us-and-you-better-listen-to-our-wisdom kinda shit...
I prefer the company of junkies and hookers and poor people...
I think Christ did too (interestingly enough)...

They have strength in common commitment to 'the hive', and have eliminated the need for certain patterns of conscious thought...that's a way of connecting to the all i guess...

Thx,
the pale e

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Offlinewhiterastahippie
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Re: The Bible and the clergy [Re: PaleE]
    #779175 - 07/26/02 07:54 PM (21 years, 10 months ago)

not always true about the hive thing. did you grow up on the streets braa? it's been my experience that people on the streets want to fuck you over as fast as they can to gain a higher personal...whatever it is they are trying to gain. but my experience may not be genuine. where did you grow up that you experienced honest junkies with a hive sense? i would like to go there.


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Peace and Love to all!

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Offlinewhy
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Re: The Bible and the clergy [Re: whiterastahippie]
    #779444 - 07/27/02 12:18 AM (21 years, 10 months ago)

and mandlebrot my braa. i am sorry to say i refuse your challenge. for i will have nothing to do with arguements and challenges. i sometimes get sucked into them. sometimes for days at a time. but whenever i sit back and think. i realize i don't want to be fightin' or fussin'. so no. i deny your challenge.

I apologize for asking you for a rational exposition of the central tenet of your own religion.

how the fuck did I get 3 mushrooms?


Edited by why (07/27/02 12:21 AM)

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Offlinewhiterastahippie
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Re: The Bible and the clergy [Re: why]
    #779609 - 07/27/02 05:16 AM (21 years, 10 months ago)

lol. I apologize for asking you for a rational exposition of the central tenet of your own religion.

you don't want to hear any "rational exposition" about any central tenet of any religion. besides, my religion states very clearly to avoid people who try to seem wise by useing big words and fancy speech. simplicity is beauty my friend. have nothing to do with sensless controversies; you know that they breed quarrels. and the lords servant must not be quarrelsome but kindly to everyone, an apt teacher, forbearing, correcting his opponents with gentleness. god may grant that they will repent and come to know the truth. big words are nice, but they impress no one. and i may be assuming to much, but i never seem to find the kind, understand people who are willing to listen useing big words. just arguementative people. if any one thinks he is religious, and does not bridal his tongue but deceives his heart, this man;s religion is vain. religion that is pure and undefiled before God and the Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their affliction, and to keep oneself unstained from the word.
when there are no people left who really want to know. thirst to know. when there are no poor left to help, hungry left to feed, and sick left to heal, THEN i'll have time to argue.
and this will really irk people who believe not in the bible...but hey, i guess if it's MY religion, then i have this right eh?
anyway, it's no surpirse that more people believe differently now than ever before in time. it has been prophesied and expected by christians for 1700 years ever since the new testament was compiled . " for the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachings to suit their own likings, and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander into myths." and there's more of those. and more telling me to avoid arguementative people...but i won't quote them. peace my braa. i must start my day now.


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Peace and Love to all!

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Offlinewhy
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Re: The Bible and the clergy [Re: whiterastahippie]
    #781352 - 07/28/02 02:27 AM (21 years, 10 months ago)

chill out dude, you take everything so seriously! you just need to settle down some with a big bag of weed

Most of what I said under the username of mandlebrot I consider to be both true and false.

the question I asked can't be answered (without heresy). You know that.






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Offlinewhy
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Re: The Bible and the clergy [Re: mandlebrot]
    #781361 - 07/28/02 02:42 AM (21 years, 10 months ago)

I think it's amusing that I somehow got a 3 mushroom rating for writing a post attacking Christianity.

If Evolving had anything to do with it then

by the way, read what Hobbies he gives in his profile.


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OfflineMAIA
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Re: The Bible and the clergy [Re: why]
    #781458 - 07/28/02 05:21 AM (21 years, 10 months ago)

"Most of what I said under the username of mandlebrot I consider to be both true and false."

Are you sock puppeting ?
Just to know...

MAIA


--------------------
Spiritual being, living a human experience ... The Shroomery Mandala



Use, do not abuse; neither abstinence nor excess ever renders man happy.
Voltaire

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Offlinewhiterastahippie
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Re: The Bible and the clergy [Re: why]
    #781669 - 07/28/02 08:25 AM (21 years, 10 months ago)

i'm seriously sorry. seriously dude i'm not as serious as you think. just quoting some serious scripture and having some serious fun in these semi serious debates. lol, it seriously must be my sense of humor. i'm seriously a big smart ass. seriously, i'll try to put more smileys in there next time so there is no doubt of the level of my seriousness.
i think i found a new favorite word...you can use it in every sentence braa!
God bless and peace man.


--------------------
Peace and Love to all!

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Offlinewhy
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Re: The Bible and the clergy [Re: MAIA]
    #783141 - 07/29/02 01:03 AM (21 years, 10 months ago)

Are you sock puppeting ?


I posted under a different username as an example of a previous mindset that I used to have.


Edited by why (07/29/02 02:15 AM)

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Offlinewhy
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Re: The Bible and the clergy [Re: whiterastahippie]
    #783144 - 07/29/02 01:13 AM (21 years, 10 months ago)

just quoting some serious scripture

I think it is best to avoid people who try to seem wise by showing off their knowledge of scripture. don't you know the devil himself can quote it for his own ends.

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