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Offlinewhiterastahippie
lover

Registered: 07/18/02
Posts: 718
Loc: look into a child's eyes,...
Last seen: 21 years, 2 months
Re: The Bible and the clergy [Re: ]
    #760527 - 07/19/02 09:54 PM (21 years, 7 months ago)

as the band stroke 9 put it;
Anger is todays fashion statment, so let's sing another song about bashing someones head in.
You still have no clue as to who I am or my mode of thinking and continue with your first ill conceived notions. How old must I be to 'grow up' and realize my status of victim? What is my cultural conditioning? How do you know?

he's 14.

Is this the same mode of thinking that you use in coming to conclusions about religion? Make a quick assumption based on your own prejudices and maintain your assumptions with no further attempt to understand what you don't know. This is the apparent line of reasoning you have used to construct your mental model of me. Your reasoning is seriously flawed in this instance (understanding another human), what makes you think it works better when addressing the weightier task of understanding the nature of all that is?

that is so fucking hypocritical dude. lol. you have done exactly that. exactly. you have made assumptions about christians (they have to be because most aren't true) and then held to them with no further attempt to understand what YOU don't know. you so obviously don't even know what christians believe. you must be getting your info from other people instead of going to the source. wanna know what we believe? find out from the horses mouth. AND NO DON'T FIND SOME 12 YEAR OLD AND SCARE THE SHIT OUT OF HIM TRYING TO PROVE HIS FAITH WRONG more like, get a catholic catechism. read it. get doctrinal staments froms other churches. read them. don't wanna do that? go to www.envoymagazine.com hear what INFORMED catholics have to say about their beliefs. and a brief look over don't count. pick an article on one of the fundamentals of faith, and read it. at least one.
don't wanna read them? then don't talk about us. until you know what we believe as WE see it. not as you and your cronies do. then you have NO (repeat) NO *NO* right to talk about us. at ALL. so dude.
you wanna go little boy? (vroom vroom)
let's go off the line now at sunset and vine....(old song lyrics, sorry.)
seriously. start at the beginning.
what is everything? what is nothing? what is God?

nothing comes from nothing. there has to be at the beginning of every cause, an uncaused cause. if you want to call it lifeforce or god or whatever you want. but it has to be there. imagine it as a train. there has to be an engine at one end to pull it. or a chain, it may be able to hang down to infinty, but there has to be something it is hanging from. a first. so out of everything we know of, what cannot be created or destroyed, it just IS? energy. energy can be neither created or destroyed. so this (for lack of a better term) "God" must be energy. pure energy.

wow, is it four? it is. i'm going to bed. i'll finish this later. or not at all, that really bugs uptight people.



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Peace and Love to all!

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InvisibleMystical_Craven
mentally illpsychonaught

Registered: 06/16/02
Posts: 439
Loc: Earth
whiterastahippie [Re: whiterastahippie]
    #760700 - 07/20/02 12:08 AM (21 years, 7 months ago)

Damn good posts...well thought out, nicely worded, and pretty much straight foreword. Kudos to you my friend.


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"Only those who risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go..." T.S. Eliot

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OfflineAdamist
ℚṲℰϟ✞ЇѺℵ ℛ∃Åʟḯ†У
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Registered: 11/23/01
Posts: 10,211
Loc: Bloomington, IN
Last seen: 9 years, 15 hours
Re: whiterastahippie [Re: Mystical_Craven]
    #760710 - 07/20/02 12:25 AM (21 years, 7 months ago)

Hallelujah to that!


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:heartpump: { { { ṧ◎ηḯ¢ αʟ¢ℌ℮мƴ } } } :heartpump:

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Offlinewhiterastahippie
lover

Registered: 07/18/02
Posts: 718
Loc: look into a child's eyes,...
Last seen: 21 years, 2 months
Re: whiterastahippie [Re: Adamist]
    #761038 - 07/20/02 04:55 AM (21 years, 7 months ago)

well worded? i was going for actually hitting the right keys, i had just got back from a house party. but it looks like i succeeded beyond my expectations.

life is love, love is art, art is life, life is art. so...
keep the rasta love flowing man!


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Peace and Love to all!

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Offlineerectronik
newbie

Registered: 03/13/02
Posts: 34
Loc: zeitung unter den See
Last seen: 16 years, 10 months
Re: The Bible and the clergy [Re: why]
    #761077 - 07/20/02 05:20 AM (21 years, 7 months ago)

Has it occured to you that YOU might be the weak minded one who just goes along with what most other people believe?

Yes, many times. However, I don't do that, and I don't have crappy faith.

Next challenge. And make it good this time.


--------------------
"Hallucinogens can be like talking to a really talented salesman: beware of what you can sell yourself." - J.L.C.

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Offlinewhiterastahippie
lover

Registered: 07/18/02
Posts: 718
Loc: look into a child's eyes,...
Last seen: 21 years, 2 months
Re: whiterastahippie [Re: whiterastahippie]
    #761100 - 07/20/02 05:29 AM (21 years, 7 months ago)

so this "God" of pure energy, how is he the source of all? well, you can't create something greater than yourself, but when nothing exist but yourself, then you have nothing to create anything out of, but yourself. think about it.

in essence, everything is energy. what holds the protons and nuetrons to the atom? what holds molecules together? what holds all the molecules of a tree in the shape of a tree? it all breaks down to energy eventually (that would totally explain God's omni-presence and omni essence).
so God created all out of...what? nothing? no, himself. a positive energy. there's another word for that too, i call it love. positive energy is just raw love. that is why we say God is love.
see, some eastern religions say that all was created out of this energy source, but they don't say that this energy source is intelligent, but it has to be, because i'm intelligent. i have to be patterened after something greater. why? duh, because a computer doesn't make a person, the person makes the computer. you catch my drift? see, if i'm a logical thinking human...that was sludged up by CHANCE...how can i trust my own logic? here, this came to me as i was meditating today.

in all things, there is a start. a first, an all, an uncaused cause.
this any man can know from his heart. from birth to death, without a pause.
as the engine must be, to pull the train, without it it wouldn't couldn't move.
as there must be a hook, to hold the hanging chain, oh listen won't you to what i'm trying to prove?
it seems i am nothing at all...if nothing is what has conceived me, it seems i am patterned to fall, if a greater pattern was not patterned before me.
but it seems something, i am. if something Greater has come before i.
conceived of a conscienceness greater than man. in spite of all that man could try. this is God. the essence of existence.
this is God. in the face of man's resistance.
this is TO BE. this is eternity.

see, God is not some gasious myterious father figure type who does unexplainible things. God is simply to be. to exist. god is. he is ISing. make sense? like....if i say "i am", then you wait for me to finish. i am what? i have to finish the sentence because i'm a finite being. but God just is.
"I AM what it is TO BE."
so if christians believe that, then why not worship thier very existence? why NOT worship something that holds everything together? something that is pure energy and holds everything else together...deserves worship in my humble and PERSONAL (not preaching) opinion.


--------------------
Peace and Love to all!

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Offlinewhiterastahippie
lover

Registered: 07/18/02
Posts: 718
Loc: look into a child's eyes,...
Last seen: 21 years, 2 months
Re: The Bible and the clergy [Re: erectronik]
    #761125 - 07/20/02 05:36 AM (21 years, 7 months ago)

Has it occured to you that YOU might be the weak minded one who just goes along with what most other people believe?

what's wrong with going along with what others beleive if they might be right?
yeah, figuring things out for yourself is good, but sometimes it's pointless. you set yourself back! if somebody else has gone through the trouble and pain to figure something out, why should you have to? just steal his findings! take this for instance.
"i think going along with what other people believe is stupid, so i will go out with a key and a kite in a rainstorm and figure everything out for myself."

yeah that's about where you're coming from as far as i can tell. edison did it for me so i don't have to. i know how electricity works. but i don't have to rediscover it every time. geeze, that's just like...stoooopid rebellion.

peace and harmony to all.


--------------------
Peace and Love to all!

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Offlineerectronik
newbie

Registered: 03/13/02
Posts: 34
Loc: zeitung unter den See
Last seen: 16 years, 10 months
Re: The Bible and the clergy [Re: whiterastahippie]
    #761179 - 07/20/02 05:59 AM (21 years, 7 months ago)

there is a breed of people in this world who inhabit the chairs behind computer screens, or coffee shops, or bars. they use big words to confuse you and to make themselves feel better.

A) You may be one of the people you're criticizing, since I don't think you typed this from a net hammock on beach.

B) You may be unfairly stereotyping people you don't understand or relate to.

they keep going on and on and on about things like...religion. they like to start arguements that usually wind around to bashing christianity. why? because they are so bitter inside.

Maybe there's nothing wrong with discussing religion, criticizing it at times. Hell, it needs to be sometimes! They do it because it don't hurt them none. Why does it seem to hurt you so much? And, bitter? Hell, I'm only bitter because I've been bullshitted all my life about everything. About what's important and how to be happy. If you think you got that from christianity, maybe I got the wrong christianity. Maybe you got the version that's all touchy-feely and new-agey, which is basically the one that I think Jesus intended, lucky you, but the one I got, the "real" one, the one that COUNTLESS MORONS talk about it is hypocritical and self-destructive/close-minded.

they have no inner peace. argueing with them in like argueing with a schizophrenic. you go round and round.

so, you have inner peace? I think I do, too. Know how I feel I got it? By argueing with people, for many, many, years. "How in the world can that make you happy?" Think about it, I had to have had inner peace to argue that long without going crazy, like you say, a "schizophrenic".


you will never prove them wrong. you will never prove them right. because either way, that would end the conflict, and conflict. conflict...they feed on it.

That was 100% BULLSHIT.
I am ALWAYS willing to be proven wrong. And I have been. I like ultimately to try and reduce that likelyhood. I do not like conflict. I hate it, but I certainly DON'T FEAR it. As I see you don't either. Cool.

like a parasite on a host. they drink hate like water. what they say APPEARS to make since because they say it with passion. but on closer examination...there are more holes in what they say then there are in a window screen. you say, "let's not fight" they say something crazy and repetitave. some of these "haters" have started wars in the past...maybe you know them. hitler? stalin?

ok, for real man, I think you just checked out completely here.
I mean, nerdy hipsters bullshit-philosophizing in a bar are the same as sadistic dictators?! Come on! Get real! I'm sorry but you doing the very same thing you're critizing, but don't realize it.
You just going to have to accept that some people think differently than you do. Maybe you'll use some of that compassion of yours to accept them, if you can't learn more about them. I think I may be one of them. I think you saw me in a coffee bar the other day, talking to my friend about how when we were little kids in church, we CRAVED something spiritual, and usually got it, but as time went on, the church didn't do it for us any more. It didn't answer our biggest questions satisfyingly and even appeared to being lying.

Yeah, can you tell I've been up all night "thinking"?


--------------------
"Hallucinogens can be like talking to a really talented salesman: beware of what you can sell yourself." - J.L.C.

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Offlinewhiterastahippie
lover

Registered: 07/18/02
Posts: 718
Loc: look into a child's eyes,...
Last seen: 21 years, 2 months
Re: The Bible and the clergy [Re: erectronik]
    #761287 - 07/20/02 06:38 AM (21 years, 7 months ago)

good call my friend! very good call . no most of that was pointed directly at evolving. not you. actually, reading your posts you are very clear and concise, plus accepting of other peoples own personal beliefs. and you don't use pointless big words to impress and confuse people.
and i was not comparing nerdy hipsters to hitler.
the people i was comparing to hitler are the people who dress in black (not that THAT is bad, they just happen to do it most of the time), and do strange things for attention, and when they get it, they use that chance to bash christians. they wear shirts that say, "i hate God". and i'm not joking. i brought one back to my place once to philosophise with him....he was more of a nazi than hitler himself. as we smoked j after j he unfolded his theory on how white non religious males are better than everybody. blacks are still basically talking apes. and anything he didn't like held back the human race from it's full potential.
scary dude, lemme tell ya. but i run into these people ALL the time. maybe i'm lucky, maybe i'm just a magnet for haters. who knows. i can't get away from them.
and about the conflict, yes, you may be willing to be proven wrong. like i said, you aren't this type i'm desrcibing. i'm speaking of the people who when there is nothing else to argue about, will start to bitch about the sun being to bright because they have to bitch. everybody has seen someone like this at least once. i just happen to meet them every day. and i smile....because i can talk to them on the same level...i can hold my own. no petty bible thumper here. lol.

and hey, i didn't write this from a hammock, but i'm deffinatly not in a chair. i have a zen thing in my apartment. no chairs. computer in on the floor. i just have huge pillows everywhere.
and i was raised with the smothering brand of christianity also. i just went atheist because it made no sense. then i figured out that everything christians say has such a deeper meaning, they've just ruined it by saying it with nothing to back it up.
you can beleive whatever you want, but DON'T talk about it until you understand it. that's like going to a harley davidson bar and trying to talk about it when all you ride is a mo-ped. love harleys, but unless you have some sort of knowledge about how they work, don't preach about them.
so many people think they can change peoples minds just by quoting scripture.

"this is true because the bible says so" they say.
so you say, "and what makes the bible true?"
"um...the bible says it is."
that's a stupid circle. stooooopid. the bible itself says it's not the final authority, just most protestants ignore what they don't like about the bible. the bible itself contradicts most denominations and brands of christianity. but they ignore that. your average christian dude knows 12 to 24 verses by heart and thinks he knows the bible. i point out other verses he's never noticed...i've seen protestants stutter like a stoned monkey they get so confused. now i believe the bible, but i also beleive that the new testament was not compiled until between 390 and 400 a.d. at the councils of nicea and hippo and carthage. so how did christians work before then? i mean even after then, to make one bible cost as much as to by a house because they were made out on sheepskin. nobody lived by the bible in the beginning, they lived by the tradition passed down from father to son. i mean yeah, they had the torah. the old testament, but that was old jewish law...and all the predictions and prophecies in the old testament were fullfilled after jesus came.
and all this fighting among christians? never meant to happen. ever read john chapter 17? jesus says, "let my followers be one so they will be known by thier unity." there was only one church before martin luther. it was called catholic. translation: universal. that's what catholic means. and the catholic church today is the same church. just like an oak tree and an acorn...everything in the oak tree was in the acorn and everything in the acorn is in the oak tree, it just gorws and adapts. just like the Church. have we catholics done bad things? i guess that means we're HUMAN and we make mistakes but the church itself has never actually done anything bad. just some people in the church.

yeah, so basically, nothing i said was wrong, i just wasn't talking about you. but then again, i could have been talking about me and you and everyone. everyone is the same you know. the universe is infinite therefore there are infinite possibilities.




--------------------
Peace and Love to all!

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Offlinewhy
journeyman
Registered: 06/03/02
Posts: 50
Last seen: 21 years, 6 months
Re: The Bible and the clergy [Re: ]
    #761360 - 07/20/02 07:07 AM (21 years, 7 months ago)

Why the reference to the Satanic Bible, are you afraid that demonic thoughts might be engulfing another naive young mind?

so have you read it then?


You still have no clue as to who I am or my mode of thinking and continue with your first ill conceived notions.

Yes I do, because I have thought in the same way as you do now. You may not want to believe that...

How old must I be to 'grow up' and realize my status of victim? What is my cultural conditioning? How do you know?

Everyone is a "victim" of cultural conditioning. Values, beliefs, ethics, ways of thinking etc. they all come from the culture you live in.

How do I know you are? because as I said, everyone is conditioned in this way.

If you think you are above that, you are deluding yourself. How old do you have to be to realize that your not as independently minded as you believe? that depends on you.

What makes you think that I'm into current fashions, be they garments or behavior?

What I think about you, is that you give strong opinions on subjects you know very little about. I also don't believe that you think for yourself very much.

Is this the same mode of thinking that you use in coming to conclusions about religion? Make a quick assumption based on your own prejudices and maintain your assumptions with no further attempt to understand what you don't know.

That is what I used to do. I dismissed it all without knowing anything about it. I can recognize the same in you. I know you will continue to say "you don't know anything about me" (that's what I would have said too).






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Offlinewhiterastahippie
lover

Registered: 07/18/02
Posts: 718
Loc: look into a child's eyes,...
Last seen: 21 years, 2 months
Re: The Bible and the clergy [Re: why]
    #761384 - 07/20/02 07:17 AM (21 years, 7 months ago)

lol dude, that last post by why...telling someone you know all about them and you used to be like them and they will grow out of it is like the worst way to piss some one off. lol. you're cool dude. to many people get way to serious and need to be settled down. i think we should drop mary jane smoke bombs around the world and everybody would chill out. i mean shit, if bin laden had been a pothead he probably wouldn't have attacked us.



--------------------
Peace and Love to all!

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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
Elder
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Registered: 12/09/99
Posts: 14,279
Loc: South Florida
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Re: The Bible and the clergy [Re: ]
    #761620 - 07/20/02 08:42 AM (21 years, 7 months ago)

LOL!!! Really, I'm LOL!! "...a mythical invisible amorphous gaseous being with the temperament and manners of a small child..." Please Evolving...too much! No, really, you yourself must think of God as you have described the above. You are too literal yourself to grasp the subtlties of even the ancient Yahwist if this is how you think. No wonder your angry about such a god!. Moreover, you can't possibly get how the early notion of YHWH Tsabaoth, a sort of 'localized mountain Deity,' grew 'in the minds of' the Hebrew people whose own conception of Deity evolved over millennia.

Now granted, Ultimate Reality to the religious man (Homo Religiosus) is not less than personal, but greater than personal. This does not mean a great, big person (howsover invisible and omnipresent), it means transpersonal - a category that 'goes beyond' personality. Similarly, eternity is not time without end. It is not time at all, but utterly transcends change and directional flow. Of course writngs about God are cast in mythological language - it is the best form of language to impart a Reality that is ineffable, that is unable to be spoken of directly. It's like trying to see an atom with a simple light microscope. Read Joseph Campbell's 'The Power of Myth.' Hell...read anything about Humankind's struggle to communicate in concept and language THAT which defies description.

You may never have a glimpse of THAT Reality, nor intuit It's Presence, nor have faith in that which Sees but is Unseen. But you ought to pause before you ridicule, and wonder what others are attempting to communicate through the bizarre language of religious myth, before you condemn. Superior insight in these matters is evidenced by humility, not arrogance. [..."mythical invisible amorphous GASEOUS..." LOL!........]


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Anonymous

Re: The Bible and the clergy [Re: why]
    #761864 - 07/20/02 09:58 AM (21 years, 7 months ago)

so have you read it then? (the Satanic Bible)
Yes, I have also read The 'Holy' Bible (King James Version), The Tao Te Cheng, Maps of The Mind, The World Book Encyclopedia, The Prophet, Call of The Wild, Black Beauty, Grim's Fairy Tales, Chocolate To Morphine, The Art of War, Progress and Poverty, The Deep Self, Intoxication, The Writings of Thomas Paine, The Mysterious Stranger, Tom Sawyer, Huckleberry Finn, Animal Farm, Deciphering the Sense, The Curious Republic of Gondour, The Breakdown of Nations, Myths That Cause Crime, Code Complete, Object-Oriented Analysis, The Object Advantage, Labyrinths of Reason, The Holographic Paradigm, The Holographic Mind, Democracy in America, Nations & States, Superior Beings, A Book of Five Rings, The Wrong Way Home, The Myth of Mental Illness, etc., etc., etc., blah, blah, blah. Why is this relevant?


I have thought in the same way as you do now. You may not want to believe that...
May be you might have had similar opinions to what I expressed earlier in this thread, but that hardly qualifies you to state that you have thought in the same way as I do now. As I stated previously, you still have no clue as to who I am or my mode of thinking and continue with your first ill conceived notions. If you did, we would not be having this dialogue. For all you know I could be a 6 year old female prodigy or a 53 year old Viet Nam vet and ex-hippie thrice divorced who has recently come to terms with the fact that he is gay.


Everyone is a "victim" of cultural conditioning. Values, beliefs, ethics, ways of thinking etc. they all come from the culture you live in
Sorry, I'm not a victim. It's true that all of us are born into a certain culture and are subject to it's influences, but this does not necessarily govern our entire mode of thinking and it does not tell how we will diverge in thought from others brought up in similar circumstances.


What I think about you, is that you give strong opinions on subjects you know very little about. I also don't believe that you think for yourself very much.
How did your arrive at this conclusion? Because I think differently than you do? This makes no sense. To reiterate my first point, you do not know me, you do not know my background, you do not know my age, you do not know my experience, you do not know my schooling, you do not know what religions and/or philosophies I may have investigated or immersed myself in and you do not understand my mode of thinking. Granted, you may look at some of my previous posts and be able to collect some information that I have presented, however you do not know if anything I have written about myself is true.


That is what I used to do. I dismissed it all without knowing anything about it. I can recognize the same in you.
No you can't, because I have not dismissed it all without knowing anything about it. What you 'recognize in me' is that which you choose to project on me. This says more about you than it does about me. You are not aware of my depth of knowledge, you merely have made assumptions and vainly present them as wisdom.


I know you will continue to say "you don't know anything about me" (that's what I would have said too).
This is the most perceptive thing you have stated yet.

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Anonymous

Re: The Bible and the clergy [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #761945 - 07/20/02 10:33 AM (21 years, 7 months ago)

you yourself must think of God as you have described the above. You are too literal yourself to grasp the subtlties of even the ancient Yahwist if this is how you think.
You misread me as well. I was using my words to emphasize a point about others' concepts of a diety. I have no personal concept of God, I only know that there is the universe/nature with all it's complexities and mysteries. I do not make assumption about the unknown, neither do I project human characteristics on it and the natural universe and call the collective idea 'God' and then take this concept and proclaim it as 'truth.'


No wonder your angry about such a god!.
I'm not. This thread is about The Bible and the clergy. I take issue with those who claim to know the unknowable and use it as a means of living off of the ignorant. What have the clergy done in the name of their supposed 'truth?' Hmm, lets ask some alter boys and their experiences in the rectumry with the clergy, or how about the story of Jim and Tammy Baker?


Superior insight in these matters is evidenced by humility, not arrogance.
What is more arrogant than claiming to have the 'true religion' and claiming to have knowledge of what is not known?

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OfflineMAIA
World-BridgerKartikeya (DftS)
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Re: whiterastahippie [Re: whiterastahippie]
    #763768 - 07/21/02 03:41 AM (21 years, 7 months ago)

"but God just is.
"I AM what it is TO BE."
so if christians believe that, then why not worship thier very existence? why NOT worship something that holds everything together? "

But why do you need a religion ? You can be connected to god by yourself without the need of the institution church, you can be christian without the priest, you are a son of god like Christ was, he told you to believe in him, not to go to church every sunday morning.
It looks like we followed opposite ways, i was a catholic until 14 and i felt good being a catholic because their ideas were enough to explain my connection with god. After sometime i became awared of the mistake i was doing, i was speting my time, beliefs and energy on something that just couldn't explain my essence, i learned many good lesson of love when i was catholic as i learned other positive points thru reading other religions books, i just don't need the institution and the religion anymore, can you accept that ?

MAIA


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Spiritual being, living a human experience ... The Shroomery Mandala



Use, do not abuse; neither abstinence nor excess ever renders man happy.
Voltaire

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Offlinewhy
journeyman
Registered: 06/03/02
Posts: 50
Last seen: 21 years, 6 months
Re: The Bible and the clergy [Re: ]
    #763793 - 07/21/02 04:03 AM (21 years, 7 months ago)

You are not aware of my depth of knowledge

lol

by the way, do you have any Marilyn Manson CD's?

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Offlinewhy
journeyman
Registered: 06/03/02
Posts: 50
Last seen: 21 years, 6 months
Re: The Bible and the clergy [Re: ]
    #763835 - 07/21/02 04:30 AM (21 years, 7 months ago)

you do not know me, you do not know my background, you do not know my age, you do not know my experience, you do not know my schooling, you do not know what religions and/or philosophies I may have investigated or immersed myself in and you do not understand my mode of thinking

"you don't know anything about me"


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Offlinewhiterastahippie
lover

Registered: 07/18/02
Posts: 718
Loc: look into a child's eyes,...
Last seen: 21 years, 2 months
Re: whiterastahippie [Re: MAIA]
    #764208 - 07/21/02 09:05 AM (21 years, 7 months ago)

of course i can accept that maia, i strive to accept and love anybody who isn't a hater. and i try to only preach at preachers to get them to not preach, the problem is, when i'm in a forum, everybody who's not a christian reads my posts and thinks i'm talking about them directly, but most times i'm not. i'm just talking about the bashers.
and hey, if i start getting hypocrytical, then kick me in the ass and put me in my place and it's all good. i might get a little miffed, but i get over it.

But why do you need a religion ? You can be connected to god by yourself without the need of the institution church, you can be christian without the priest, you are a son of god like Christ was, he told you to believe in him, not to go to church every sunday morning.

Websters new world college dictionary. Internationally renowned for clarity, precision, and ease of use. third editon, completely updated: Religion (ri lij en) N. --
holiness, a system of religious beliefs. to bind together.
1) a Belief in a divine or superhuman power or powers to be obeyed and worshipped as the creator(s) and ruler(s) of the universe. b) expression or such a belief in conduct and ritual.
2) ANY (repeat ANY) specific system of belief and worship, often (but not always) involving a code of ethics and a philosophy [the christian religion, the buddhist religion, ect.] b) ANY (repeat again ANY) system of beliefs, practices, ethical values, ect. resembling, suggestive of, or likened to such a system. [humanism as a religion]
3) (this one really doesn't appy to the converstaion) the state or way of life of a person in a monestary or convent.
4) ANY OBJECT OF CONSCIENTIOUS REGARD AND PURSUIT-----*

i think the word religion gets used wrong. people say they don't want to follow a religion with doctrines and rules, but religion doesn't mean just that...it means so much more, just as the word "run" has over 30 meanings and deffinitions in most dictionarys.
so why do i need a religion? well, i could be way off in my reasoning here, but everybody has different opinions. here's mine.
because a religion is a system of beliefs. if there are more than two people who happen to share the same beliefs as i about worship, then why not join with them and worship with them? and if more want to join that's thier choice. totally. now you can bring up history and say people have died because they wouldn't join a religion. but there's no need. i'm aware of the fact that many people have been needlessly slaughtered by horrible religious fanatics. and i, as a christian, would like to (if possible) take the blame completely on myself (since i do associate with the same group of people as those murderers did) and apologize on behalf of my God, (who disdains hate and murder and force feeding of the religion he started) for what his confused and slightly over zealous but well intending children have done. and apologize on behalf of those over zealous children for what they have done. and if i could also take a punishment for them and therefore pay thier debts and make it better, i would without a second thought.
christians have done bad things. but christ and his bride, the Church have never sinned.
the deal with my particular religion is that somebody already thought of my system of beliefs years ago. and other people already joined with them. it's not institutionalized, it's just that they've been "bound together" by choice for thousands of years and happen to all have the same "specific system of belief and worship." but really, some people feel like maybe they were force fed on a religion. but it was just that it's a parents job to raise a kid, and how the parents believe is how they want thier kids to believe because they believe it to be correct and right. (sorry about the run-on sentence there )
and the people of the church, they just were of the notion that the kid believed in the same things as them, so they tried to make sure the kid knew what was considered wrong and right in this particular belief system. they meant well. give them credit for that. but if a person grows up and decides to change. why hold any type of animosity or bitterness in thier heart towards what they once were? they did change successfully right?
so why do i need an institutional church? i don't need it. that's a common mistake when people look at christians. they think we are inslaved, when many of us chose this as freely as others choose other things. i don't need it, as i said, i just choose to go along with the billions (and yes, there's that many catholics, we're the largest religion in the world) of people who agree with me totally about the concept of an all loving and generous creator. i'm not forced to follow dogma and rules, i choose to. God is very very clear about the fact that he gave us free will because he wants us to love him because of our own choice. sometimes man misinterprets that. but just because there are bad people in a church, does that mean you leave it? no! why? because if you are perfect, you have no need to ever go to church. but if you're not perfect. if you happen to be a person who sins and makes mistakes....hospitals are for the imperfect of body, churches are for the imperfect of the soul. nobody is perfect (except me....just kidding).
so yes, i can be connected to god myself. and i am. and since i feel so connected to him, i choose to go to church. now i don't make it every sunday. but i always have the intention. i'm not going to hell for not going to church.
and...(said in a very un-offending tone of voice ) who says i need a priest to be a christian? i don't. no catholic does. priests just happen to be people that love God so much they want to spend thier whole life serving him in every way they can. and priests, they aren't perfect either. they are human too. and God makes it very clear that for every sin they commit against him, they will pay for double what other people would. because people look up to them, and if they mislead (which sometimes they do) then they must pay for that too.
and in my religion, yes i'm a son of God like christ was, but unlike christ, i'm not God. christ was 100% god and 100% man. i am just 100% man.
but uh, also (SERIOUSLY, no offense intended) you are a little misinformed. christ in fact did tell us to go to church. many times. he refers to the church. "when any of you have a dispute, take it to the elders (priest comes from the word priestos meaning elder, also the word presbyter means the same thing) of the church". and when paul was persecuting the christian church, christ said, "paul, why do you persecute me?" also jesus speaks of law. "the law and the prophets were until john; since then the good news of the kingdom of God is preached, and every one enters it voilently. but it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away, than for one dot of the law to become void. (law: sometime, study up on jewish law and how they did thier ceremonies, then watch a catholic mass. you'd be amazed at the similarities.) yes, jesus set up a church on earth, in relationship with the church of heaven. and he wishes us to attend, because the mass is the closest thing to heaven we will get on earth.
and the catholic religion has been around for not just 2002 years...it's been around as long as people have worshipped God, because it's not a replacement for judiaism, it's a fullfillment of their old testament prophecies. so God worshippers (now called christians) have been around since the beginning of time.
just my view on it though. i'm not trying to change anybodies mind here, i just seek to be understood along with billions of other christians who are indeed misunderstood and therefore persecuted. i seek to change no minds because a mind changed against it's will... is of the same opinion still. just remember, notice everything, because it's the small things in life, that hinder God's light.

christianity is a religion of love and peace and tolerance. when anybody doesn't act like that but claims christianity, just think of them as baby christians who have not come to a full understand of thier faith, so just smile and nod when they try to convert you. but keep in mind, it is a big part of our religion to spead the word and information about it, it's just some people confuse "spead" with "force".






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OfflineMAIA
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Re: whiterastahippie [Re: whiterastahippie]
    #764535 - 07/21/02 11:43 AM (21 years, 7 months ago)

"i think the word religion gets used wrong."

Yes it's true and you aren't using it right. There's not such thing as a christian religion, there are religions and doctrines based on christian beliefs. Protestants, ortodoxs, evangelics and catholics are religions because they have and need rituals to make a connection with god, on the other hand doctrines like christian rationalism don't have such need of rituals, they use other tools like meditation and spiritual exploration to achieve that same connection but all of them share the same christian principle. This principle can be seen as a way of life, so the christian comunity is seen as a social system. Like it or not, religious or not, most of us living in countries with a majority of christian tend to aquire most of those principles thru the society and not thru religion.
Saying that you follow a religion but you don't compromise following the rituals is like getting married but not going home. To say you're a catholic you have to compromise like in a relationship. Each partner to the relationship has to feel an initial desire for such a relationship. From this desire the partner explores the other, tries to become acquainted and causes the other to become acquainted. Such a desire has to start and grow in total freedom. Manipulating and compelling the other kills the relationship. In this there cannot be any compromise, so if you're Catholic you should go to the church.
That manipulation exist by the hand of the church itself, the institution church is responsible for one of the most black periods of western history. The greed of man and those in command made it possible and Christ message was used to control man rather to free man, to me there's no excuse for such an action. Even today the church uses many ways to control people but the main way will always be using fear, i mean why they still say they are the true religion and the only salvation ? Why not the others ? People have fear believing stuff like that, it messes with many spiritual questions, such questions should have conforting and enlightning answers not dogmas.

"christians have done bad things. but christ and his bride, the Church have never sinned."

Sorry, but this kind of dogmatics statements do not compute anymore. I don't need the explanation of the catholic church about Christ brides to achieve anything, i can start counting all sins the church did the last 1000 years and i asure you the bride can't wear white. I mean, why do you believe it never sinned ? Because they figured out Peter was the rock and the bride was the church ? What about figuring out about union and understanding between religions ? What about luxury and power they show ? What about the poor little kids being sodomized ? Things like this get me worried and they are some of the reasons i abandoned all religions.


MAIA


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Spiritual being, living a human experience ... The Shroomery Mandala



Use, do not abuse; neither abstinence nor excess ever renders man happy.
Voltaire

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Offlinewhiterastahippie
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Re: whiterastahippie [Re: MAIA]
    #764616 - 07/21/02 12:28 PM (21 years, 7 months ago)

okay. and if i respond in any way will it even matter? and if i don't will you think you've "won"? things you say, i've addressed, but to address them again is a matter of simply repeating myself. you say i can't be a catholic and not go to church? okay.
wait...why not? if i'm a catholic trapped on a deserted island with no church do i go to hell? i said i go when i can.
i'm not using the word religion right? well, i don't even come close to following you when you say that. because i think i do use it right. i can't even begin to see where you are coming from.
there's not such thing as christian religion? um. riiiight. didn't the dictionary say that a system of beliefs IS a religion? that's what i got out of it, but maybe my grasp of the english language isn't that great. i haven't been speaking it my whole life, just since about two when i learned to talk. i don't thing the dictionary said you HAD to have rituals to have a religion. it simply said a system of beliefs. and you think there is no meditation in catholocism? oh. my. god. what is it when you close your eyes for a long period of time and think about things? what's that word? oh yeah! meditation! yeah we do that every time we close our eyes and do something we call "praying". the rosary is a form of meditation too. yeah, in fact, while you say the prayers, you are supposed to meditate on the mysteries of faith. you think we have no spiritual exploration? um. i'm just dropping that one. completely.

by the way...if i seem rude, i don't mean to, i'm not mocking you i'm just a huge smart ass. i actually like the way you address my issues. and man do i have issues

back to the topic at hand.
Saying that you follow a religion but you don't compromise following the rituals is like getting married but not going home. To say you're a catholic you have to compromise like in a relationship. Each partner to the relationship has to feel an initial desire for such a relationship. From this desire the partner explores the other, tries to become acquainted and causes the other to become acquainted. Such a desire has to start and grow in total freedom. Manipulating and compelling the other kills the relationship. In this there cannot be any compromise, so if you're Catholic you should go to the church.
you are so right. good call. all i was saying is that if i don't make it to church because i can't. i'm not going to hell.
That manipulation exist by the hand of the church itself, the institution church is responsible for one of the most black periods of western history. The greed of man and those in command made it possible and Christ message was used to control man rather to free man, to me there's no excuse for such an action. Even today the church uses many ways to control people but the main way will always be using fear, i mean why they still say they are the true religion and the only salvation ? Why not the others ? People have fear believing stuff like that, it messes with many spiritual questions, such questions should have conforting and enlightning answers not dogmas.

we are responsible for all those bad things? (ahem) can i get a little proof as to how the church was responsible for the dark ages? proof please? no hearsay?
i was under the impression that the fall of the roman empire and the rise of barbarians to power was responsible for the dark ages...but hey, all i did was study history for a long hard intense time before i became catholic. now there is a book called "roman catholocism" by l. boettner. and if you happened to get any of your information from it, then it is false, just because half of the book is made up. false. because this guy hated catholics more than he hated his mother.
one big problem is that most anti catholic propaganda and lies come from authors who read this book of falsifications, then wrote their own books of falsifications. you really really have to be careful where your information comes from.
like say....hmmmm....many many of the things that are attributed to the church aren't the church at all. like the inquisition? oh it was horrible! if it had been the church, then we would have been so wrong...good thing it was actually the spanish government and not the church itself. and many other things that happened that were so bad were cardinals or priests or whoever else acting freely of the church or just totally in rebellion to the church.
in fact, the only "sins toward humanity" as it is so often put, that the church actually did, was the crusades. and there's more about that then you think.
listen, don't leave peter because of judas.


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Peace and Love to all!

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