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OfflineViveka
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Creationist Propaganda
    #2584910 - 04/21/04 12:09 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

I recently had a flyer stuck to my windshiled inviting me to join the "Campus Crusade for Christ".  On the flyer there was a whole list of "evidence" that evolution is a false theory.  One piece of said evidence was that Evolution theory doesn't explain the complex human eye(?).
Which is funny when you think about it because...of course it wouldn't make sense that natural selection brought about the human eye IF YOU DIDN'T BELIEVE THAT HUMANS EVOLVED FROM OTHER LIFEFORMS.

But it set me to thinking... :smile2:..it does seem incredible that our ocular organs developed ultiamtely as the result of mutations.  Of course, the idea is that over the past few billion years, billions of mutations have brought us to where we are.  The first eye was probably little more than an extension of brain tissue in some insect or something.  But it does seem pretty incredible that we've gotten were we are. 

But I also think the Christian creationist belief that evolution can't explain the human eye is extremely arrogant.  Because it implies that the human being and his eyes are some ultimate product of life in the cosmos.  As incredible as our eyes are, they can only detect an extremely minute fragment of the light spectrum.  So the idea that evolution can't explain eyesight really indicates the absence of contemplation of just how grandiose our universe is.

But I dunno.  Darwinian evolution is definately a reality, but methinks there's more to the puzzle of speciation than point mutations and natural selection.


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Offlineergot
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Re: Creationist Propaganda [Re: Viveka]
    #2584957 - 04/21/04 12:24 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Intelligent design via the ambiguity we term "evolution."


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"Remain a learner, never become a knower." - Osho


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Creationist Propaganda [Re: Viveka]
    #2585063 - 04/21/04 12:56 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

There's just so much creationist propaganda out there that I don't even bother anymore. It's a sad world we live in when people think that Biblical mythology is as credible as hard science.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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OfflineTheShroomHermit
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Re: Creationist Propaganda [Re: Viveka]
    #2585116 - 04/21/04 01:08 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Two small points I'd like to make
1) Mariettta, the county next to mine, teaches intelligent design along side evolution in the science class.
2) the book "Evolution: the triumph of an idea" by Carl Zimmer, has eyes of various animals all over the jacket. The human eye is on the bind.


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Offlinelostsuitcase
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Re: Creationist Propaganda [Re: TheShroomHermit]
    #2585832 - 04/21/04 03:25 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

intelligent design is such a fucking joke.


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Offlinefaelr
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Re: Creationist Propaganda [Re: Viveka]
    #2586007 - 04/21/04 06:47 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

to many people worry about how it all started....does anyone care about how its going to end!?!
next question....does anyone really care?


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where i walk, i walk alone. when i fight, i fight alone. i am no one and i am nothing. yet all is that i am.


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Offlinegotmagog
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Re: Creationist Propaganda [Re: Viveka]
    #2586015 - 04/21/04 07:13 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Well, I do not consider myself a believing christian and have a rational scientific mind.

However, the question of the human eye has puzzled me before, there are really some scientific arguments about the difficulty of evolution explaining the emergence of such complex organs like the human eye.

Another famous example is the sound locator system of bats, which consists of an emitter and receiver, both useless by themselves. So how can random mutations create such organs, and let the organizm keep them, if they are not beneficial until much later.

So, creationism or not, evollution need a major ravamping, I think there waas already a thread here about its problems...


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InvisibleTrueBrode
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Re: Creationist Propaganda [Re: Viveka]
    #2586102 - 04/21/04 09:31 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Evolution is not a proven science, especially when it comes to human evolution. That being said, it's funny how the Christians interpret such evidence as proof of creationism, like that's the only logical conclusion gaps in evolutionary theory suggest.


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Creationist Propaganda [Re: Viveka]
    #2586160 - 04/21/04 09:57 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

> it does seem incredible that our ocular organs developed ultiamtely as the result of mutations.

Out of the entire spectrum, the human eye can only detect a tiny little sliver. That tiny sliver just happens to cover the frequencies of light that are best transmitted through water. If our eyes were tuned to any other frequency range, we would not be able to see under water.


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Just another spore in the wind.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Creationist Propaganda [Re: TrueBrode]
    #2586840 - 04/21/04 02:31 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Micro-evolution(evolution within a species) has been not only proven, but observed. There is no logical reason to think that Macro-evolution(evolving from one species to another) could not also occur if given a long enough timeline, especially since the fossil record seems to indicate that it has.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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OfflineSpecialEd
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Re: Creationist Propaganda [Re: Seuss]
    #2586863 - 04/21/04 02:39 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

There's lots of reasons to believe that we came from the water.


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"Plus one upvote +1..."
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OfflineAlan Stone
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Re: Creationist Propaganda [Re: silversoul7]
    #2586893 - 04/21/04 02:49 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Micro-evolution(evolution within a species) has been not only proven, but observed. There is no logical reason to think that Macro-evolution(evolving from one species to another) could not also occur if given a long enough timeline, especially since the fossil record seems to indicate that it has.




Evolution has only been proven within the paradigm. Darwinian evolution is still a theory, because 'survival of the fittest' hardly explains HOW the mutations happened, and WHY the mutations lead to the effects they've caused. That's two of the hiats within the theory.


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It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.

- Aristotle


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Creationist Propaganda [Re: Alan Stone]
    #2586914 - 04/21/04 02:56 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Exactly, but that's a common mistake people make. Darwinian evolution is not the same as evolution itself. It is only one theory as to how evolution occurs.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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InvisibleTrueBrode
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Re: Creationist Propaganda [Re: silversoul7]
    #2586946 - 04/21/04 03:03 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Just because it has been observed doesn't mean it translates into justifying the evolution of every species, especially humans, which have not been incrementally proven well. As much as you desire to prove evolution, there are those out there, such as myself, that are going to wait to see all the holes filled in, instead of jumping to conclusions based off momentary successes.

I just read something about the inaccuracies of the fossil record, perhaps here, if not I'll see if I can find it elsewhere. The fossil record is a sort of supplemental "proof," which is constantly being reworked to fit the newest timeline.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Creationist Propaganda [Re: TrueBrode]
    #2586983 - 04/21/04 03:13 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

TrueBrode said:
Just because it has been observed doesn't mean it translates into justifying the evolution of every species, especially humans, which have not been incrementally proven well. As much as you desire to prove evolution, there are those out there, such as myself, that are going to wait to see all the holes filled in, instead of jumping to conclusions based off momentary successes.



If proof comes about that humans did not evolve from apes, I will change my position. However, considering the skeletal similarities, the amount of DNA we share, and the sites of the earliest homonid fossils, I would consider our evolution from apes to be the most plausible solution thus far.

Quote:

I just read something about the inaccuracies of the fossil record, perhaps here, if not I'll see if I can find it elsewhere. The fossil record is a sort of supplemental "proof," which is constantly being reworked to fit the newest timeline.



I'd love to see this. Of course, there are always inaccuracies in the fossil record which change the timeline or something along those lines, but I have yet to see any inaccuracies in the fossil record which cast doubt upon our primate origins. If you can dig up a link, I'd love to see it.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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InvisibleTrueBrode
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Re: Creationist Propaganda [Re: silversoul7]
    #2587096 - 04/21/04 03:43 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

I have yet to see any inaccuracies in the fossil record which cast doubt upon our primate origins

Uh, possibly I'm mistaking, but I haven't seen a very convincing fossil record to precisely map the evolution of hominids that isn't questionable, thus the problems scientists were facing when they kept finding new sets of bones that pointed in other directions.

I'm not well versed enough in human evolution to go tit for tat, nor regurgitate what I've read adequately, but last I read, human evolution for hominids ultimately to homo sapiens was still up in the air. One thing I remember reading (or maybe heard on the discovery channel, not sure) claimed that for Neanderthal man to evolve into CroMagnon (or vice versa, I can't remember), the change in the spinal structure would have killed them off first.

Of course, there are always inaccuracies in the fossil record which change the timeline or something along those lines

Good, so you admit the fossil record is constantly changing and being reworked, therefore it is not adequate evidence for proving evolution at this time.

Maybe you remember the link being here since you browse here often, or have heard about it otherwise: It had to do with the emergence of new fossils pushing the date of other fossils back, thus pushing their date into a period in Earth history (a hot period) when it would have been impossible for such fossils to exist. That was the gist of it, I'll try googling for it later. Anyways, even besides that article, the point is that, like I said before, the fossil record is CURRENTLY, merely supplemental proof, and not very strong proof considering it's constantly being refigured to fit theories.

However, considering the skeletal similarities, the amount of DNA we share, and the sites of the earliest homonid fossils, I would consider our evolution from apes to be the most plausible solution thus far.

I don't deny that it's a plausible theory, I'm just waiting for more adequate proof before accepting such a doctrine.


Edited by TrueBrode (04/21/04 03:44 PM)


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Creationist Propaganda [Re: TrueBrode]
    #2587160 - 04/21/04 03:57 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Uh, possibly I'm mistaking, but I haven't seen a very convincing fossil record to precisely map the evolution of hominids that isn't questionable, thus the problems scientists were facing when they kept finding new sets of bones that pointed in other directions.



Questionable in what way? Certainly certain aspects of human evolution are questionable, but I haven't heard of any evolutionary biologist say that the evidence that we evolved from ape-like homonids is insufficient.

Quote:

I'm not well versed enough in human evolution to go tit for tat, nor regurgitate what I've read adequately, but last I read, human evolution for hominids ultimately to homo sapiens was still up in the air. One thing I remember reading (or maybe heard on the discovery channel, not sure) claimed that for Neanderthal man to evolve into CroMagnon (or vice versa, I can't remember), the change in the spinal structure would have killed them off first.



I've heard something along those lines as well. Most scientists now consider Neanderthals to have been a dead-end species(or sub-species). However, that's not exactly the cornerstone of human evolutionary theory. Merely a modification to what was previously believed.

Quote:

Good, so you admit the fossil record is constantly changing and being reworked, therefore it is not adequate evidence for proving evolution at this time.



The details of the fossil record are constantly debated, but that does not mean that it is meaningless. The fossil record reveals a timeline which starts with ape-like homonids, and progesses into more human-like creatures. The similarities in these species and the timeline make it reasonable to assume that one evolved from another. This, of course, does not constitute proof(such a thing does not exist in science), but does constitute strong evidence.

Quote:

I don't deny that it's a plausible theory, I'm just waiting for more adequate proof before accepting such a doctrine.



It is a theory, not a doctrine. Please do not confuse scientific hypotheses with strong evidence to support it with statements made by religions which followers are required to believe without question.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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InvisibleDoctorJ
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Re: Creationist Propaganda [Re: SpecialEd]
    #2587264 - 04/21/04 04:34 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

SpecialEd said:
There's lots of reasons to believe that we came from the water.




Vague generalizations like that will get you in a lot of trouble with religious fundamentalists who rarely use their brain and therefore are hardly capable of connecting all the mental dots necessary to see the validity of that statement.

Once when I was a kid, I saw a Christian video for teens about how evolution was bunk. This one kid on the video was like : "The main point of evolution is that life came from water. But that just doesn't make any sense." Which it doesn't. Its an oversimplification that leaves out a lot of important information.


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peace, pot, and microdot!


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InvisibleTrueBrode
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Re: Creationist Propaganda [Re: silversoul7]
    #2587349 - 04/21/04 05:05 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

I haven't heard of any evolutionary biologist say that the evidence that we evolved from ape-like homonids is insufficient

First of all, evolutionary bioligists are going to be inherently biased to their theories, and obvious appreciation of evolutionary biology. Anyways, you keep making this statement, which is irrelevant to my argument. My point is that within the development of hominids, to the current conclusion- homo sapien, there is not a precise record explaining exactly how each change/phase happened, and the current finds contain contrivances and holes.

However, that's not exactly the cornerstone of human evolutionary theory. Merely a modification to what was previously believed.

But it's a questionable facet within the realms of hominid development, which is the area I alluded to with my first statement.

The details of the fossil record are constantly debated, but that does not mean that it is meaningless

Nor did I say that it was.

The fossil record reveals a timeline which starts with ape-like homonids, and progesses into more human-like creatures.

No, the fossil record provides evidence for a timeline, and as more fossils are found, the timeline is reworked to fit theories.

The similarities in these species and the timeline make it reasonable to assume that one evolved from another

Again, you are arguing another point than I am.


make it reasonable to assume that one evolved from another

It's reasonable that hominids evolved along a certain line eventually to their current state, homo sapiens, but it's not precisely evident yet.

This, of course, does not constitute proof(such a thing does not exist in science), but does constitute strong evidence.

So like I said twice already, it's fluctuating supplemental evidence.

It is a theory, not a doctrine. Please do not confuse scientific hypotheses with strong evidence to support it with statements made by religions which followers are required to believe without question.

With a topic this important- with so many possible ramifications for society if proven true- I'll consider it a doctrine until I am completely convinced. Don't confuse current trends that have not been proven, nor are completely evident, with some sort of superior finality.


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InvisibleEvolving
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Re: Creationist Propaganda [Re: Viveka]
    #2587368 - 04/21/04 05:11 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the only thing humans have been able to observe or accomplish throughout their whole recorded history is only to bring out genetic expression in living organisms? With all the selective breeding and extra influences brought about by human intervention on various life forms, have we ever recorded the emergence of a new species or new organs?

On a related note, did Darwin say it was 'survival of the fittest?' Because I have this quote, "Tis is not the strongest of the species that survive, nor the most intelligent, but the one most responsive to change." - Charles Darwin


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To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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