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Religious Freedom? - Could someone explain this one to me?
    #5339415 -

I've heard this argument a bunch of times: Allowing gay marriage that is equal to straight marriage is an infringement on the religious freedoms of Christians, and other religions opposed to homosexuality.

But they religious people aren't forced to do anything, and they aren't prevented from doing anything. I've never heard any gay marriage proponent say that all churches should be forced to perform gay marriage. As far as I know, only the ones that already approve would be involved.

So? Where's the infringement?


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us

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Re: Religious Freedom? - Could someone explain this one to me? [Re: Phluck]
    #5339455 -

i think the stupidest thing about that argument is that it makes marriage sound like some sort of trade marked christian practice, but marriage has been all over the world regardless of religious boundaries for thousands of years. So for christians to try to dictate what marriage is, based on their particular version of it is just silly, and they don't really have any right to do so for everyone else just because they are in the majority.

and BTW i'd never heard that particular argument before..it's usually about the possibility of tax fraud (which exists in straight marriage too) and the definition of marriage.

It's all just moral posturing and an attempt to deny people their basic 1st amendment rights by hardcore christians who are simply afraid gay marriage will cause homosexuality to become more accepted, which will in turn have widespread moral repercussions throughout america that will affect their children negatively.

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Re: Religious Freedom? - Could someone explain this one to me? [Re: Phluck]
    #5339507 -

Phluck said:
But they religious people aren't forced to do anything, and they aren't prevented from doing anything. I've never heard any gay marriage proponent say that all churches should be forced to perform gay marriage. As far as I know, only the ones that already approve would be involved.


And that's precisely where the misunderstanding comes from. They think that if the government allows gay marriage, that suddenly any church that won't perform or recognize gay marriage will be sued or something. I'd call it deliberate ignorance.


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Re: Religious Freedom? - Could someone explain this one to me? [Re: Phluck]
    #5339774 -

If I were part of the gay people I'd create our own religion and part of that is that we're allowed to get married. What does the government do when they have two opposing religions on a matter, and both want religious freedom?

How can you keep a nonchristian homo from marrying based on Christian rules? Isn't that considered the opposite of freedom of religion?


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I don't think for myself. I think as though I'm explaining my thoughts to someone else. I'm concerned only for those listening.

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Re: Religious Freedom? - Could someone explain this one to me? [Re: Phluck]
    #5339788 -

Anyone who talks about the sanctity of marriage should realize that in las vegas you can get married in 10 minutes.

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Re: Religious Freedom? - Could someone explain this one to me? [Re: Phluck]
    #5339899 -

Let's cut right to the meat of the issue; Christians don't like homos. Because of that they don't want the homos to be able to engage in certain things which might "pollute" the accepted norms. All of these excuses they come up with are garbage (the sanctity of marriage with be perverted, gays want special rights, etc...). The Christians have a view of how society should be and they seek to impose their will upon others in order to achieve it. They are just as bad as the extreme "progressive Leftists".

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Re: Religious Freedom? - Could someone explain this one to me? [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #5339936 -

Except that the left is right and that the Christians are fucking psycho. Look at there leaders http://www.reandev.com/taliban/ !!!!

These people are absolutley nuts! They masturbate when they hear another gay died of AIDS. They love AIDS. They want a gay genocide it would seem.


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I don't think for myself. I think as though I'm explaining my thoughts to someone else. I'm concerned only for those listening.

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Re: Religious Freedom? - Could someone explain this one to me? [Re: beatnicknick]
    #5339942 -

beatnicknick said:
Except that the left is right and that the Christians are fucking psycho. Look at there leaders http://www.reandev.com/taliban/ !!!!

These people are absolutley nuts! They masturbate when they hear another gay died of AIDS. They love AIDS. They want a gay genocide it would seem.


The Left in America ranges from extreme Lefties to mild ones. The Right is the same. The fringe Righties are much less numerous than the fringe Lefties in my opinion.

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Re: Religious Freedom? - Could someone explain this one to me? [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #5340185 -


The Left in America ranges from extreme Lefties to mild ones. The Right is the same. The fringe Righties are much less numerous than the fringe Lefties in my opinion.

I think the fact that you lean a bit to the right sways your opinion a lot.

I don't think there are more fringe lefties, I just think they dress sillier and stand out more.

But you won't have much trouble finding a normally dressed guy that thinks he gets to live in everlasting paradise for eternity 'cause a skinny guy got nailed to some shit 2000 years ago... and believes the government needs to stay out of his life and homosexuals are broken people.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us

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Re: Religious Freedom? - Could someone explain this one to me? [Re: Phluck]
    #5340269 -

Phluck said:
Randalflagg said:

The Left in America ranges from extreme Lefties to mild ones. The Right is the same. The fringe Righties are much less numerous than the fringe Lefties in my opinion.


I think the fact that you lean a bit to the right sways your opinion a lot.


Nigga, you crazy.

Phluck said:
I don't think there are more fringe lefties, I just think they dress sillier and stand out more.

But you won't have much trouble finding a normally dressed guy that thinks he gets to live in everlasting paradise for eternity 'cause a skinny guy got nailed to some shit 2000 years ago... and believes the government needs to stay out of his life and homosexuals are broken people.


I struggle to understand the underlying beliefs that guide ideology. I also try to recognize where one ideology seems to reign supreme and others don't. I try to discern which one has the "upper hand" or which one has more adherents.

...After reconsidering my statement I think I may be wrong. While Leftism undoubtedly reigns in much of our entertainment, urban areas, minority populations, and higher institutions of learning, Rightist tenets seem to hold sway over many other demographs. Small towns, religious people, and "old-fashioned" people seem to definately lean Right more. The one thing that is really noticeable about the whole "culture war" is how polarized both sides are.

I will readily admit that I am naturally reactionary and hostile which makes me a tad bit close-minded. I just cannot seem to get over my loathing of most Leftist tenets and posturing. I think the thing that bugs me the most is when I see examples of Lefties expressing concern for the "common man" but at the same time condescendingly chiding the common man's thinking and culture (or lack thereof). It is just incredibly elistist and pretentious. When I look through my local alt-weekly "city newspaper" and see pictures of guys that are looking half indie rock/half preppy (like one of the dudes from Weezer), showing off their Volkswagens, drinking copious cappucinos, bitching about grad school, and lamenting about the lack of culture in their area ("I'm the only one on my block who has read Sartre. How backwards people are around here!"), I just want to kidnap and torture them slowly. These are the people we are supposed to emulate? These are the people who will occupy important positions within our society? This is what the modern male should be like? These are the modern sensibilities and ideas that we should project? I can't help but feel that these over-educated, whiny, pampered, and effeminate dorks should be put to sleep. At least the religious Righties have an excuse for how fucking stupid they are...they are brainwashed by a religion that demands absolute and unquestioning faith.

However, let me add that I am no fan of the Right. Religious nutcases, xenophobes, and excessive nationalists cause nothing but problems. While I deplore their methods and their more extreme incarnations, I can at least understand where they are coming from. The desire for stability, tradition, order, and concern for your people seem like natural drives to me. I think my concern with "where you came from and who you are"-type ideals stems from the death of my father some years ago. I know where I came from, the people who raised me, and the ideas that were instilled in me. I cherish these things. And when I see extreme Lefties seeming to revel in the rejection of tradition for the sake of pointless rebellion or the pursuit of a materialist vision the bile in my stomach rises up.

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Re: Religious Freedom? - Could someone explain this one to me? [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #5340338 -

Show me a major recognized religion, that will marry a homosexual couple.

Lets start by elimintaing some: Christians don't.
How aout Islam? Nope.....

Can anyone show me one?


(by the way why people always single out Christians when it comes to being homophobic?)


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”

Edited by SirTripAlot (02/26/06 08:39 AM)

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Re: Religious Freedom? - Could someone explain this one to me? [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #5340347 -


However, let me add that I am no fan of the Right. Religious nutcases, xenophobes, and excessive nationalists cause nothing but problems. While I deplore their methods and their more extreme incarnations, I can at least understand where they are coming from. The desire for stability, tradition, order, and concern for your people seem like natural drives to me. I think my concern with "where you came from and who you are"-type ideals stems from the death of my father some years ago. I know where I came from, the people who raised me, and the ideas that were instilled in me. I cherish these things. And when I see extreme Lefties seeming to revel in the rejection of tradition for the sake of pointless rebellion or the pursuit of a materialist vision the bile in my stomach rises up.

I don't think there's anything less natural about wanting to help people out, yet also wanting to be intelligent and well read. This obviously results in a certain amount of hypocrisy, but no less so than the many hypocrisies of the right.

Some people honestly find change thrilling. I enjoy finding out that deeply ingrained feelings and beliefs are just imposed values, and not something that I have to believe in. America is founded on rebellion, the protestants who founded the country are people who felt the need to attack the old values of the Catholic church. The desire to want to change things and rebell is one of the old values in the US.

I love history, and I love learning about the past, but I don't want to live it. When someone wants to do something really crazy like get a sex change, I don't find that offensive at all. There have always been people who have had a messed up perception of their own sex, and in the past they were forced to live in shame or persecution. Now they're free to explore new, weird ways to feel comfortable with themselves. That doesn't offend me, and neither do lots of the bizarre things liberals are cool with. I think it's fascinating and thrilling that someone would want to live their lives in such a bizarre manner.

Many people have had their desires respressed or persecuted by "traditional values". I was recently reading Psychopathia Sexualis, which was written over 100 years ago, and is a collection of case histories about "sexual deviants". It would seem there were just as many people back then with screwed up sexuality, it's just that they were all treated as insane, monsters, or just plain useless. Nowadays, many of them can live happy, productive lives, because people have rebelled against "traditional values".

I don't see any evidence that these traditional types have lives that are any more stable or structured than those on the left. The values that were instilled in me include being open to new ideas and accepting strange people. I like exploring other cultures and stretching the limits of our own because it makes life a lot more interesting. I don't think that clinging to old values just for the sake of tradition is going to make anything better. If someone wants to live their lives in an old fashioned manner, that's just fine. But if someone also wants to live their lives in a weird new way, that's just as fine, there's nothing less nice about that.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us

Edited by Phluck (02/26/06 08:56 AM)

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Re: Religious Freedom? - Could someone explain this one to me? [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #5340350 -

Quote:
Show me a major recognized religion, that will marry a homosexual couple.

Lets start by elimintaing some: Christians don't.
How aout Islam? Nope.....

Can anyone show me one?


(by the way why people always single out Christians when it comes to being homophobic?)


What about: Some Christians?

Most "major religions" are so huge and nebulous that there's no single set of values that can be assigned to them.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us

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Re: Religious Freedom? - Could someone explain this one to me? [Re: Phluck]
    #5340360 -

Bullshit. All major religions have regulations and standards when it comes to marriage.


Christan doctrine does not allow it. The Christian churches that do, face expulsion.
Same with, or even worse in the faith of Islam.


So once again, so me a major religion that marries homosexuals.


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”

Edited by SirTripAlot (02/26/06 09:02 AM)

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Re: Religious Freedom? - Could someone explain this one to me? [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #5340376 -

SirTripAlot said:
Show me a major recognized religion, that will marry a homosexual couple.

Lets start by elimintaing some: Christians don't.


Wrong. Some Christians don't. There are plenty of gay churches around the country, believe it or not. Just because your particular brand of Christianity doesn't recognize same-sex marriage doesn't mean that all of them think that way. There is lots of diversity within Christianity. Also, how do you suppose atheists manage to get married in this country?


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Re: Religious Freedom? - Could someone explain this one to me? [Re: Silversoul]
    #5340420 -

Paradigm, if you want to battle with me over Christian doctrine: put on the gloves.

I dont know if you remember our previous discussions on this topic.

The VAST MAJORITY of Christians do not believe in gay marriage.

The select MINORITY that do, ARE in violation of that faith.

You choose any ten churches in the phone book, call them and ask them about gay marriage, do a statistical analysis. If you ewant an in more depth experiment, Im sure you could devise one, but the stats would remain the same.

By the fucking way, anyone uncovered a major religon that marries gays???? I am still waiting,you, globalists.

(Atheists get married at a courthouse.)


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”

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Re: Religious Freedom? - Could someone explain this one to me? [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #5340430 -


Christan doctrine does not allow it. The Christian churches that do, face expulsion.

Expulsion from what?

Maybe you've confused Christianity with Catholicism.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us

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Re: Religious Freedom? - Could someone explain this one to me? [Re: Silversoul]
    #5340433 -

I got married by the mayor. My friends got married by Giuliani. The actual marriage, for legal purposes, is not the ceremony but the granting of the license. Church weddings in the absence of a government granted license are legally null and void.


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Re: Religious Freedom? - Could someone explain this one to me? [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #5340454 -

There is no one Christianity. Case in point: You and I are both Christians, yet look how different we are. Even if the majority of Christians don't support gay marriage, it only takes a few denominations for gays to be able to get married in the church. Your demand for a "major religion" that allows gay marriage is a red herring, as every major religion has a great diversity of sects and denominations, with their own unique beliefs.


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Re: Religious Freedom? - Could someone explain this one to me? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #5340455 -

Expulsion from that type of Christianinty(the community)....take for instance being a Southern Baptist church that allows gay marriage......

Still waiting on other MAJOR religions that accept gay MARRIAGE........


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”

Edited by SirTripAlot (02/26/06 09:54 AM)

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Re: Religious Freedom? - Could someone explain this one to me? [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #5340456 -


The VAST MAJORITY of Christians do not believe in gay marriage.

The select MINORITY that do, ARE in violation of that faith.

A majority is not the same as all of them.

What does "in violation of that faith" mean? There are many, many, many things that the bible expressly speaks out against that nobody pays any attention to now. Are people who wear clothing made with more than one kind of material "in violation of their faith"? The bible says you can't do that.

There are many, many, many different Christian churches. There's the big ol' catholic church, and then there are the bazillion protestants. They include everyone from Methodists to Unitarians, to Jehovah's Witnesses.

The United Church of Christ, which is a pretty big one, official supports gay marriage, for example. They aren't the only ones either. There are pretty big Christian groups that support gay marriage. There is no official set of rules for Christians.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us

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Re: Religious Freedom? - Could someone explain this one to me? [Re: Phluck]
    #5340459 -

Phluck said:
I don't think there's anything less natural about wanting to help people out, yet also wanting to be intelligent and well read. This obviously results in a certain amount of hypocrisy, but no less so than the many hypocrisies of the right.


I can agree with that.

Phluck said:
America is founded on rebellion, the protestants who founded the country are people who felt the need to attack the old values of the Catholic church. The desire to want to change things and rebell is one of the old values in the US.


Rebellion and its allure exist everywhere.


Phluck said:
Some people honestly find change thrilling. I enjoy finding out that deeply ingrained feelings and beliefs are just imposed values, and not something that I have to believe in.

The values that were instilled in me include being open to new ideas and accepting strange people. I like exploring other cultures and stretching the limits of our own because it makes life a lot more interesting. I don't think that clinging to old values just for the sake of tradition is going to make anything better. If someone wants to live their lives in an old fashioned manner, that's just fine. But if someone also wants to live their lives in a weird new way, that's just as fine, there's nothing less nice about that.

Many people have had their desires respressed or persecuted by "traditional values".



I think we are misunderstanding each other somewhat. When I say we should "cherish tradition" I'm not referring to pointless dogmatic norms or values which happen to be held by a certain ideological group at any one time. Do I give a fuck that the Christians don't like gays or people who get sex-change operations? No. Do I care when some super old-fashioned person gets offended by a guy with long hair? Not at all. People who cling to pointless traditions and who are incapable of examining new things are close-minded morons. A significant percentage of Righties and traditionalists are buffoons.

When the Left complains about gays not getting equal rights, that doesn't bother me (I actually happen to agree with them). However, when the Left attempts to frame human nature as "barbaric" is when I get annoyed. Extreme Leftists seem to wrinkle their noses at any form of tribalism, patriotism, masculinity, and deviation from the "hate the strong/love the weak" philosophical model. What I happen to respect and what I see the Left attacking consistently is an innate proclivity of men throughout all ages; we seem to thrive and achieve great heights when we are all tied together in a common cause. There is an indescribable feeling of belonging and pride when we have an identity and we cherish it. Granted, history is replete with examples of such circumstances ending badly (Nazi Germany for example), but how can the Leftists deny the exhiliaration and the power of such things? And in all of this lies a terrible paradox: Man is so flawed that any system of thought or lifestyle that He pursues will end up being perverted to a point that complete destruction and rebirth becomes the best option.

Shall we all blindly follow a "progressive" and scatter-brained materialist view of Man and our reality? How can the progressives possibly think that the answer for Mankind's future lies in these pathetic ideas? They are puny and insignificant when compared to God and they are an absolute affront to and incompatible with human nature. Can they possibly think that "modern sophistication" will take us out of the "Dark Ages"?

We need a Tyler Durden to shake things up.

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Re: Religious Freedom? - Could someone explain this one to me? [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #5340470 -

SirTripAlot said:
Still waiting on other MAJOR religions that accept gay MARRIAGE........


I said:
Your demand for a "major religion" that allows gay marriage is a red herring, as every major religion has a great diversity of sects and denominations, with their own unique beliefs.



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Re: Religious Freedom? - Could someone explain this one to me? [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #5340475 -

Expulsion from that type of Christianinty....take for instance being a Southern Baptist church that allows gay marriage......

What does this "expulsion" entail? I don't think any Southern Baptist Churches are going to allow gay marriage... the ones that will allow it are the more liberal churches anyways.

It's also not as though there's a southern baptist head council who decides who's in and who's out. So this "expulsion" sounds to me like something you've made up based on a screwed up picture of how the churches are organized, which has no basis in reality.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us

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Re: Religious Freedom? - Could someone explain this one to me? [Re: Silversoul]
    #5340482 -

Paradigm said:
Your demand for a "major religion" that allows gay marriage is a red herring, as every major religion has a great diversity of sects and denominations, with their own unique beliefs.


Exactly, what he's asking for doesn't make any sense at all. There's virtually nothing that Christianity, as a whole, agrees on. They can't even all agree whether there's one god, or a holy trinity of gods.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us

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Re: Religious Freedom? - Could someone explain this one to me? [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #5340485 -

Paradigm...my God man.

There are universal codes within Christianity.

If I started a church condoning murder under the guise of a Christian church, that does make me a recognized Christan church.

Islam is the same way.

No mosque would communicate or tolerate another mosque that performs gay marriage. There are universal codes within that church or mosque that people thought the USA agree to.

What gives people the right to say that Christianity should perform gay marriage? Or Islam.

Talk to the government or a local authority. Dont try and change some else's religion.


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”

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Re: Religious Freedom? - Could someone explain this one to me? [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #5340490 -

SirTripAlot said:
There are universal codes within Christianity.



And there are many different groups within Christianity which interpret things certain ways and/or ignore other things. The Bible quite clearly says that homosexuality is wrong, but a somewhat significant amount of Christians and churches out there have chosen to disregard this tenet.

Edited by RandalFlagg (02/26/06 10:07 AM)

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Re: Religious Freedom? - Could someone explain this one to me? [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #5340496 -

Phluck stated:

virtually nothing that Christianity, as a whole, agrees on. They can't even all agree whether there's one god, or a holy trinity of gods.

Nice try. Although there are different ritualistic differences, like communion....and the trinity......THE VAST MAJORITY OF CHRISTIANS AND MUSLIMS DO NOT BELIEVE IN GAY MARRIAGE.


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”

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Re: Religious Freedom? - Could someone explain this one to me? [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #5340502 -

SirTripAlot said:
Paradigm...my God man.

There are universal codes within Christianity.


None of which has to do with homosexuality(and certainly not same-sex marriage). It's quite simple: If you believe in Christ, you are a Christian. The rest is up for debate.

Quote:
If I started a church condoning murder under the guise of a Christian church, that does make me a recognized Christan church.


Exactly what regulatory body is choosing which churches to recognize as Christian? BTW, there have unfortunately been all too many churches that condone murder.

Quote:
Islam is the same way.

No mosque would communicate or tolerate another mosque that performs gay marriage. There are universal codes within that church or mosque that people thought the USA agree to.


As with churches, mosques are not affiliated with one another, and thus there would be no means of "excommunicating" them.

Quote:
What gives people the right to say that Christianity should perform gay marriage? Or Islam.


The Christians or Muslims do. There is no body know as "Christianity" that perfoms marriage. They are independent churches with their own particular doctrine.

Quote:
Talk to the government or a local authority. Dont try and change some else's religion.


No one is doing such a thing except you. I am a Christian, and I support gay marriage. Though many may not agree with me, there are enough Christian churches out there who do, and they should be free to perform such ceremonies.


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Re: Religious Freedom? - Could someone explain this one to me? [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #5340520 -

Give me a rough percentage of the Christian Churches that allow gay marriage.

Give me a rough percentage that does not allow it.

Give me that statistical figure.

JUST BECAUSE A DEFINITE MINORITY OF CHRISTIANS ACCEPT GAY MARRIAGE, DOES NOT MEAN IT REPRESENTS IT AS A WHOLE.


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”

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Re: Religious Freedom? - Could someone explain this one to me? [Re: Phluck]
    #5340522 -

I have always thought that it is a moot point for either the left or the right to bring up religion in a debate about civil marriage, which is secular. As far as I know, you are allowed to be married in a religious ceremony but that doesn't mean you are legally married. In other words, a christian church can perform a gay marriage now if they wanted to but they cannot be legally married if they are same sex.

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Re: Religious Freedom? - Could someone explain this one to me? [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #5340530 -

SirTripAlot said:
JUST BECAUSE A DEFINITE MINORITY OF CHRISTIANS ACCEPT GAY MARRIAGE, DOES NOT MEAN IT REPRESENTS IT AS A WHOLE.


NO ONE'S SAYING IT DOES! NOW CALM DOWN!!!!

The fact is that NO ONE represents the whole of Christianity, with the possible exception of Jesus, who never said anything about homosexuality.

And it only takes a few churches to recognize it in order for gays to be married in a church. Scratch that--it only takes one. And yet there are several.

But this is all irrelevant to the fact that gay marriage is not about forcing churches against their will to marry gays. It's about the government recognizing the legitimacy of gay marriages that do take place. In fact, there are many churches that already perform gay weddings with or without a nod from the government.


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Re: Religious Freedom? - Could someone explain this one to me? [Re: Silversoul]
    #5340538 -



I dunno...he looks kind of fruity to me.

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Re: Religious Freedom? - Could someone explain this one to me? [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #5340609 -

RandalFlagg said:


I dunno...he looks kind of fruity to me.


Yes, but would you hit it?


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Re: Religious Freedom? - Could someone explain this one to me? [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #5340640 -

SirTripAlot said:
JUST BECAUSE A DEFINITE MINORITY OF CHRISTIANS ACCEPT GAY MARRIAGE, DOES  NOT MEAN IT REPRESENTS IT AS A WHOLE.


SirtripAlot, are you against gay marriage? If so, don't you think that maybe you're being a little ridiculous  :rolleyes:

C'mon man get a grip.  How can someone open minded enough to be on the shroomery be close minded enough to think gays don't deserve equal rights?  And now for some Christian Quotes.

"Not only is homosexuality a sin, but anyone who supports fags is just as guilty as they are. You are both worthy of death."
-Fred Phelps, Westboro Baptist Church

"We had lost the fight for the preservation of the white race until God himself intervened in earthly affairs with AIDS to rescue and preserve the white race that he had created.... I praise God all the time for AIDS."
-J. B. Stoner

"AIDS is not just God's punishment for homosexuals; it is God's punishment for the society that tolerates homosexuals."
-Jerry Falwell

"[Homosexuals] want to come into churches and disrupt church services and throw blood all around and try to give people AIDS and spit in the face of ministers."
-Pat Robinson, Christian Coalition


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I don't think for myself. I think as though I'm explaining my thoughts to someone else. I'm concerned only for those listening.

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Re: Religious Freedom? - Could someone explain this one to me? [Re: beatnicknick]
    #5340749 -

beatnicknick:

For you to state those absurd quotes, from those absurd "so called" Christian leaders, is out of context.
I do not proscribe (and many Christians do not also) to those outlandish comments. Your attack on the above quotes is as mean less as tits on a boar.


For those who like to offend with a portrayal of Jesus in that light, really shows the inside hate you have towards Christians.



Like I have stated before, the fact remains that two of the most dominate religions on earth, do not agree with gay marriage. Although there are people within those institutions that would allow it, it does not resemble the religion as a whole. Like communists that live in the USA, that do not agree to a representative government, does not mean that the USA is not a Representative democracy.

The twisting and turning of truth is humorous at best.

Your equation to fringe elements representing themselves as these institutions is proof of this.


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”

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Re: Religious Freedom? - Could someone explain this one to me? [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #5340854 -

SirTripAlot said:
Give me a rough percentage of the Christian Churches that allow gay marriage.

Give me a rough percentage that does not allow it.

Give me that statistical figure.

JUST BECAUSE A DEFINITE MINORITY OF CHRISTIANS ACCEPT GAY MARRIAGE, DOES NOT MEAN IT REPRESENTS IT AS A WHOLE.


Who the hell said it does?

A significant percentage of christians accept it. Of course the entire christian community doesn't.

But there is no official christian position on it. No such thing exists.

The holy trinity isn't some piddly little thing, it's the essence of what the entire religion is about. What I'm saying is that Christians don't agree on that, if they can't agree on that, then obviously you can't say that there are things about Christianity that are definite.

You seem to think that once a big percentage of Christians believe something, then it becomes officially Christian. This would mean that every single small christian church with a unique belief is not Christian, because they have some unique beliefs that the vast majority of Christians (more than those that are opposed to gay marriage) don't agree with.


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"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us

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Re: Religious Freedom? - Could someone explain this one to me? [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #5340900 -

You act as if Christianity is an organized institution. Other than the Catholic church and various denominational groups, there is no real Christianity as a whole. To say that the denominations willing to marry gays are going against one of the tenets of Christianity is absurd, since various parts of the bible are interpreted differently, emphasized or not emphasized, or ignored completely.

I don't think you will find any mainstream religion that accepts gay marriage as a whole since religion stays on the side of conservatism, so it will always be behinds the times.

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Re: Religious Freedom? - Could someone explain this one to me? [Re: Phluck]
    #5340918 -

Phluck stated:
This would mean that every single small christian church with a unique belief is not Christian, because they have some unique beliefs that the vast majority of Christians (more than those that are opposed to gay marriage) don't agree with.


I couldnt have said it better myself. There are many churches claiming to be Christian (Like those excepting gay marriage) which are not. This "unique belief" is allot more then that..similar to your trinity....this is one of the most fundamentials of beliefs: marriage.


Any church that endorses gay marriage clearly does not follow the Bible.


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”

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Re: Religious Freedom? - Could someone explain this one to me? [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #5340925 -

The only thing necessary to be a Christian is the belief that Jesus is the son of God.

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Re: Religious Freedom? - Could someone explain this one to me? [Re: Phluck]
    #5341014 -

Phluck said:
SirTripAlot said:
JUST BECAUSE A DEFINITE MINORITY OF CHRISTIANS ACCEPT GAY MARRIAGE, DOES NOT MEAN IT REPRESENTS IT AS A WHOLE.


Who the hell said it does?


The bible

Phluck said:
A significant percentage of christians accept it. Of course the entire christian community doesn't.

But there is no official christian position on it. No such thing exists.


Of course it does, it's called the bible.

Phluck said:
The holy trinity isn't some piddly little thing, it's the essence of what the entire religion is about. What I'm saying is that Christians don't agree on that, if they can't agree on that, then obviously you can't say that there are things about Christianity that are definite.

You seem to think that once a big percentage of Christians believe something, then it becomes officially Christian. This would mean that every single small christian church with a unique belief is not Christian, because they have some unique beliefs that the vast majority of Christians (more than those that are opposed to gay marriage) don't agree with.


This is generally held to be true among christians. If you don't believe in the bible then you aren't a christian.

Why anyone would want to be christian is beyond me anyway.


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YOUR EXPERIENCE WITH ANY GIVEN DRUG ISN'T THE DEFINITIVE MEASURE OF THE DRUGS EFFECTS.

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Re: Religious Freedom? - Could someone explain this one to me? [Re: Ekstaza]
    #5341128 -

This is all a nice bunch of screeching but whether any church recognizes a marriage is of relevance only to those who choose to join that particular club. The only marriage sanctioning bodies of any import whatsoever is the US government and the governments of the various states. What the Baptist council, or any other Christian, Jewish, Islamic, Hindu etc. group, says about gay marriage doesn't mean a fucking thing to me or anybody else not a member of their particular cult. They can jump up and down and hold their breath if they want but if the government recognizes gay marriage then there will be gay marriage. The rest are just blowhards.


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Re: Religious Freedom? - Could someone explain this one to me? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #5341198 -

:thumbup:

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Re: Religious Freedom? - Could someone explain this one to me? [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #5341441 -

who cares what the bible says about gay marriage? gay people could go down to city hall and get their marriage certicicates, without ever setting foot in a church. thats totally religion free, so now what problem would you have with gay marriage? Christians should stop acting like marriage is something that belongs to them. christians did not invent the idea of marriage.

What if two gay atheists want to be 'married'? Is that ok since neither of them care about god anyway? why would it be wrong for them to signify their union with marriage, because you're religion thinks it's wrong? That's just stupid as fuck imo. Christians have no right to impose their will and their morales on me or anyone else, especially if i don't believe in their god.

If i want to get married and i'm a satan worshipper, i'm going to do it, and theres nothing anyone can do about it because this is america, and christians don't get to decide who is worthy of marriage and who isn't.

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Re: Religious Freedom? - Could someone explain this one to me? [Re: Redstorm]
    #5341922 -

Redstorm said:
The only thing necessary to be a Christian is the belief that Jesus is the son of God.


Actually, one must believe that Jesus is the Christ, which can mean many things to different people.


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Re: Religious Freedom? - Could someone explain this one to me? [Re: Silversoul]
    #5341938 -

What's the difference between what I said and what you said? I'm not being facetious, I just have a very limited knowledge of Christianity.

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Re: Religious Freedom? - Could someone explain this one to me? [Re: Ekstaza]
    #5341956 -

Ekstaza: Believing in the Bible does not necessarily mean taking it literally. Plus, the Bible in its current form didn't exist until centuries after the death of Jesus. The Bible did not become the be-all and end-all of Christianity until the Catholic and Orthodox churches consolidated their power. Many early Christians followed the life and teachings of Jesus, but did not use the Bible to guide their beliefs.


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Re: Religious Freedom? - Could someone explain this one to me? [Re: Redstorm]
    #5341964 -

Redstorm said:
What's the difference between what I said and what you said? I'm not being facetious, I just have a very limited knowledge of Christianity.


"Christ" means "anointed one." To some, this could mean that he was God's only son. To others(particularly gnostics), it could mean that he attained Christ consciousness. Still others might argue that it means he is the Jewish messiah. There are probably several other interpretations I forgot to mention.


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Re: Religious Freedom? - Could someone explain this one to me? [Re: Silversoul]
    #5341968 -

:thumbup:

Thanks.

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Re: Religious Freedom? - Could someone explain this one to me? [Re: Silversoul]
    #5342453 -

Paradigm said:
Ekstaza: Believing in the Bible does not necessarily mean taking it literally. Plus, the Bible in its current form didn't exist until centuries after the death of Jesus. The Bible did not become the be-all and end-all of Christianity until the Catholic and Orthodox churches consolidated their power. Many early Christians followed the life and teachings of Jesus, but did not use the Bible to guide their beliefs.


Cool. I was just going on the versions of christianity that I've been exposed to. I am from the South East after all. It does, however, give me more ammo for argument, that if the bible is the word of god, and god is infallible, then how can the bible be wrong? Any part of it?

Then again, this aspect of this discussion should really be taken up in the religion forum.


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YOUR EXPERIENCE WITH ANY GIVEN DRUG ISN'T THE DEFINITIVE MEASURE OF THE DRUGS EFFECTS.

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