Home | Community | Message Board


This site includes paid links. Please support our sponsors.


Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Shop: Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   PhytoExtractum Maeng Da Thai Kratom Leaf Powder

Jump to first unread post Pages: < Back | 1 | 2 | 3 | Next >  [ show all ]
OfflinePhluck
Carpal Tunnel
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/10/99
Posts: 11,394
Loc: Canada
Last seen: 3 months, 6 days
Re: Religious Freedom? - Could someone explain this one to me? [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #5340456 - 02/26/06 09:51 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)


The VAST MAJORITY of Christians do not believe in gay marriage.

The select MINORITY that do, ARE in violation of that faith.


A majority is not the same as all of them.

What does "in violation of that faith" mean? There are many, many, many things that the bible expressly speaks out against that nobody pays any attention to now. Are people who wear clothing made with more than one kind of material "in violation of their faith"? The bible says you can't do that.

There are many, many, many different Christian churches. There's the big ol' catholic church, and then there are the bazillion protestants. They include everyone from Methodists to Unitarians, to Jehovah's Witnesses.

The United Church of Christ, which is a pretty big one, official supports gay marriage, for example. They aren't the only ones either. There are pretty big Christian groups that support gay marriage. There is no official set of rules for Christians.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleRandalFlagg
Stranger
Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
Re: Religious Freedom? - Could someone explain this one to me? [Re: Phluck]
    #5340459 - 02/26/06 09:52 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Phluck said:
I don't think there's anything less natural about wanting to help people out, yet also wanting to be intelligent and well read. This obviously results in a certain amount of hypocrisy, but no less so than the many hypocrisies of the right.




I can agree with that.

Quote:

Phluck said:
America is founded on rebellion, the protestants who founded the country are people who felt the need to attack the old values of the Catholic church. The desire to want to change things and rebell is one of the old values in the US.




Rebellion and its allure exist everywhere.


Quote:

Phluck said:
Some people honestly find change thrilling. I enjoy finding out that deeply ingrained feelings and beliefs are just imposed values, and not something that I have to believe in.

The values that were instilled in me include being open to new ideas and accepting strange people. I like exploring other cultures and stretching the limits of our own because it makes life a lot more interesting. I don't think that clinging to old values just for the sake of tradition is going to make anything better. If someone wants to live their lives in an old fashioned manner, that's just fine. But if someone also wants to live their lives in a weird new way, that's just as fine, there's nothing less nice about that.

Many people have had their desires respressed or persecuted by "traditional values".





I think we are misunderstanding each other somewhat. When I say we should "cherish tradition" I'm not referring to pointless dogmatic norms or values which happen to be held by a certain ideological group at any one time. Do I give a fuck that the Christians don't like gays or people who get sex-change operations? No. Do I care when some super old-fashioned person gets offended by a guy with long hair? Not at all. People who cling to pointless traditions and who are incapable of examining new things are close-minded morons. A significant percentage of Righties and traditionalists are buffoons.

When the Left complains about gays not getting equal rights, that doesn't bother me (I actually happen to agree with them). However, when the Left attempts to frame human nature as "barbaric" is when I get annoyed. Extreme Leftists seem to wrinkle their noses at any form of tribalism, patriotism, masculinity, and deviation from the "hate the strong/love the weak" philosophical model. What I happen to respect and what I see the Left attacking consistently is an innate proclivity of men throughout all ages; we seem to thrive and achieve great heights when we are all tied together in a common cause. There is an indescribable feeling of belonging and pride when we have an identity and we cherish it. Granted, history is replete with examples of such circumstances ending badly (Nazi Germany for example), but how can the Leftists deny the exhiliaration and the power of such things? And in all of this lies a terrible paradox: Man is so flawed that any system of thought or lifestyle that He pursues will end up being perverted to a point that complete destruction and rebirth becomes the best option.

Shall we all blindly follow a "progressive" and scatter-brained materialist view of Man and our reality? How can the progressives possibly think that the answer for Mankind's future lies in these pathetic ideas? They are puny and insignificant when compared to God and they are an absolute affront to and incompatible with human nature. Can they possibly think that "modern sophistication" will take us out of the "Dark Ages"?

We need a Tyler Durden to shake things up.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleSilversoul
Rhizome
Male User Gallery

Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
Re: Religious Freedom? - Could someone explain this one to me? [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #5340470 - 02/26/06 09:57 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

SirTripAlot said:
Still waiting on other MAJOR religions that accept gay MARRIAGE........



Quote:

I said:
Your demand for a "major religion" that allows gay marriage is a red herring, as every major religion has a great diversity of sects and denominations, with their own unique beliefs.




--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflinePhluck
Carpal Tunnel
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/10/99
Posts: 11,394
Loc: Canada
Last seen: 3 months, 6 days
Re: Religious Freedom? - Could someone explain this one to me? [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #5340475 - 02/26/06 09:58 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Expulsion from that type of Christianinty....take for instance being a Southern Baptist church that allows gay marriage......

What does this "expulsion" entail? I don't think any Southern Baptist Churches are going to allow gay marriage... the ones that will allow it are the more liberal churches anyways.

It's also not as though there's a southern baptist head council who decides who's in and who's out. So this "expulsion" sounds to me like something you've made up based on a screwed up picture of how the churches are organized, which has no basis in reality.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflinePhluck
Carpal Tunnel
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/10/99
Posts: 11,394
Loc: Canada
Last seen: 3 months, 6 days
Re: Religious Freedom? - Could someone explain this one to me? [Re: Silversoul]
    #5340482 - 02/26/06 10:00 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Paradigm said:
Your demand for a "major religion" that allows gay marriage is a red herring, as every major religion has a great diversity of sects and denominations, with their own unique beliefs.




Exactly, what he's asking for doesn't make any sense at all. There's virtually nothing that Christianity, as a whole, agrees on. They can't even all agree whether there's one god, or a holy trinity of gods.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OnlineSirTripAlot
Semper Fidelis
Male User Gallery

Registered: 01/11/05
Posts: 7,459
Loc: Harmless (Mostly)
Last seen: 5 minutes, 50 seconds
Re: Religious Freedom? - Could someone explain this one to me? [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #5340485 - 02/26/06 10:01 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Paradigm...my God man.

There are universal codes within Christianity.

If I started a church condoning murder under the guise of a Christian church, that does make me a recognized Christan church.

Islam is the same way.

No mosque would communicate or tolerate another mosque that performs gay marriage. There are universal codes within that church or mosque that people thought the USA agree to.

What gives people the right to say that Christianity should perform gay marriage? Or Islam.

Talk to the government or a local authority. Dont try and change some else's religion.


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleRandalFlagg
Stranger
Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
Re: Religious Freedom? - Could someone explain this one to me? [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #5340490 - 02/26/06 10:05 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

SirTripAlot said:
There are universal codes within Christianity.





And there are many different groups within Christianity which interpret things certain ways and/or ignore other things. The Bible quite clearly says that homosexuality is wrong, but a somewhat significant amount of Christians and churches out there have chosen to disregard this tenet.


Edited by RandalFlagg (02/26/06 10:07 AM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OnlineSirTripAlot
Semper Fidelis
Male User Gallery

Registered: 01/11/05
Posts: 7,459
Loc: Harmless (Mostly)
Last seen: 5 minutes, 50 seconds
Re: Religious Freedom? - Could someone explain this one to me? [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #5340496 - 02/26/06 10:10 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Phluck stated:

virtually nothing that Christianity, as a whole, agrees on. They can't even all agree whether there's one god, or a holy trinity of gods.

Nice try. Although there are different ritualistic differences, like communion....and the trinity......THE VAST MAJORITY OF CHRISTIANS AND MUSLIMS DO NOT BELIEVE IN GAY MARRIAGE.


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleSilversoul
Rhizome
Male User Gallery

Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
Re: Religious Freedom? - Could someone explain this one to me? [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #5340502 - 02/26/06 10:13 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

SirTripAlot said:
Paradigm...my God man.

There are universal codes within Christianity.



None of which has to do with homosexuality(and certainly not same-sex marriage). It's quite simple: If you believe in Christ, you are a Christian. The rest is up for debate.

Quote:

If I started a church condoning murder under the guise of a Christian church, that does make me a recognized Christan church.



Exactly what regulatory body is choosing which churches to recognize as Christian? BTW, there have unfortunately been all too many churches that condone murder.

Quote:

Islam is the same way.

No mosque would communicate or tolerate another mosque that performs gay marriage. There are universal codes within that church or mosque that people thought the USA agree to.



As with churches, mosques are not affiliated with one another, and thus there would be no means of "excommunicating" them.

Quote:

What gives people the right to say that Christianity should perform gay marriage? Or Islam.



The Christians or Muslims do. There is no body know as "Christianity" that perfoms marriage. They are independent churches with their own particular doctrine.

Quote:

Talk to the government or a local authority. Dont try and change some else's religion.



No one is doing such a thing except you. I am a Christian, and I support gay marriage. Though many may not agree with me, there are enough Christian churches out there who do, and they should be free to perform such ceremonies.


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OnlineSirTripAlot
Semper Fidelis
Male User Gallery

Registered: 01/11/05
Posts: 7,459
Loc: Harmless (Mostly)
Last seen: 5 minutes, 50 seconds
Re: Religious Freedom? - Could someone explain this one to me? [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #5340520 - 02/26/06 10:19 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Give me a rough percentage of the Christian Churches that allow gay marriage.

Give me a rough percentage that does not allow it.

Give me that statistical figure.

JUST BECAUSE A DEFINITE MINORITY OF CHRISTIANS ACCEPT GAY MARRIAGE, DOES NOT MEAN IT REPRESENTS IT AS A WHOLE.


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineCatalysis
EtherealEngineer

Registered: 04/23/02
Posts: 1,742
Last seen: 15 years, 6 months
Re: Religious Freedom? - Could someone explain this one to me? [Re: Phluck]
    #5340522 - 02/26/06 10:20 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

I have always thought that it is a moot point for either the left or the right to bring up religion in a debate about civil marriage, which is secular. As far as I know, you are allowed to be married in a religious ceremony but that doesn't mean you are legally married. In other words, a christian church can perform a gay marriage now if they wanted to but they cannot be legally married if they are same sex.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleSilversoul
Rhizome
Male User Gallery

Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
Re: Religious Freedom? - Could someone explain this one to me? [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #5340530 - 02/26/06 10:22 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

SirTripAlot said:
JUST BECAUSE A DEFINITE MINORITY OF CHRISTIANS ACCEPT GAY MARRIAGE, DOES NOT MEAN IT REPRESENTS IT AS A WHOLE.



NO ONE'S SAYING IT DOES! NOW CALM DOWN!!!!

The fact is that NO ONE represents the whole of Christianity, with the possible exception of Jesus, who never said anything about homosexuality.

And it only takes a few churches to recognize it in order for gays to be married in a church. Scratch that--it only takes one. And yet there are several.

But this is all irrelevant to the fact that gay marriage is not about forcing churches against their will to marry gays. It's about the government recognizing the legitimacy of gay marriages that do take place. In fact, there are many churches that already perform gay weddings with or without a nod from the government.


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleRandalFlagg
Stranger
Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
Re: Religious Freedom? - Could someone explain this one to me? [Re: Silversoul]
    #5340538 - 02/26/06 10:26 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)



I dunno...he looks kind of fruity to me.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
Re: Religious Freedom? - Could someone explain this one to me? [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #5340609 - 02/26/06 10:55 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

RandalFlagg said:


I dunno...he looks kind of fruity to me.




Yes, but would you hit it?


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinebeatnicknick
The Innovator
Male User Gallery

Registered: 05/25/05
Posts: 1,074
Last seen: 12 years, 8 months
Re: Religious Freedom? - Could someone explain this one to me? [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #5340640 - 02/26/06 11:06 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

SirTripAlot said:

JUST BECAUSE A DEFINITE MINORITY OF CHRISTIANS ACCEPT GAY MARRIAGE, DOES  NOT MEAN IT REPRESENTS IT AS A WHOLE.




SirtripAlot, are you against gay marriage? If so, don't you think that maybe you're being a little ridiculous  :rolleyes:

C'mon man get a grip.  How can someone open minded enough to be on the shroomery be close minded enough to think gays don't deserve equal rights?  And now for some Christian Quotes.

"Not only is homosexuality a sin, but anyone who supports fags is just as guilty as they are. You are both worthy of death."
-Fred Phelps, Westboro Baptist Church

"We had lost the fight for the preservation of the white race until God himself intervened in earthly affairs with AIDS to rescue and preserve the white race that he had created.... I praise God all the time for AIDS."
-J. B. Stoner

"AIDS is not just God's punishment for homosexuals; it is God's punishment for the society that tolerates homosexuals."
-Jerry Falwell

"[Homosexuals] want to come into churches and disrupt church services and throw blood all around and try to give people AIDS and spit in the face of ministers."
-Pat Robinson, Christian Coalition


--------------------
I don't think for myself. I think as though I'm explaining my thoughts to someone else. I'm concerned only for those listening.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OnlineSirTripAlot
Semper Fidelis
Male User Gallery

Registered: 01/11/05
Posts: 7,459
Loc: Harmless (Mostly)
Last seen: 5 minutes, 50 seconds
Re: Religious Freedom? - Could someone explain this one to me? [Re: beatnicknick]
    #5340749 - 02/26/06 11:48 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

beatnicknick:

For you to state those absurd quotes, from those absurd "so called" Christian leaders, is out of context.
I do not proscribe (and many Christians do not also) to those outlandish comments. Your attack on the above quotes is as mean less as tits on a boar.


For those who like to offend with a portrayal of Jesus in that light, really shows the inside hate you have towards Christians.



Like I have stated before, the fact remains that two of the most dominate religions on earth, do not agree with gay marriage. Although there are people within those institutions that would allow it, it does not resemble the religion as a whole. Like communists that live in the USA, that do not agree to a representative government, does not mean that the USA is not a Representative democracy.

The twisting and turning of truth is humorous at best.

Your equation to fringe elements representing themselves as these institutions is proof of this.


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflinePhluck
Carpal Tunnel
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/10/99
Posts: 11,394
Loc: Canada
Last seen: 3 months, 6 days
Re: Religious Freedom? - Could someone explain this one to me? [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #5340854 - 02/26/06 12:19 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

SirTripAlot said:
Give me a rough percentage of the Christian Churches that allow gay marriage.

Give me a rough percentage that does not allow it.

Give me that statistical figure.

JUST BECAUSE A DEFINITE MINORITY OF CHRISTIANS ACCEPT GAY MARRIAGE, DOES NOT MEAN IT REPRESENTS IT AS A WHOLE.




Who the hell said it does?

A significant percentage of christians accept it. Of course the entire christian community doesn't.

But there is no official christian position on it. No such thing exists.

The holy trinity isn't some piddly little thing, it's the essence of what the entire religion is about. What I'm saying is that Christians don't agree on that, if they can't agree on that, then obviously you can't say that there are things about Christianity that are definite.

You seem to think that once a big percentage of Christians believe something, then it becomes officially Christian. This would mean that every single small christian church with a unique belief is not Christian, because they have some unique beliefs that the vast majority of Christians (more than those that are opposed to gay marriage) don't agree with.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineRedstorm
Prince of Bugs
Male

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 10/08/02
Posts: 44,175
Last seen: 3 months, 11 days
Re: Religious Freedom? - Could someone explain this one to me? [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #5340900 - 02/26/06 12:35 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

You act as if Christianity is an organized institution. Other than the Catholic church and various denominational groups, there is no real Christianity as a whole. To say that the denominations willing to marry gays are going against one of the tenets of Christianity is absurd, since various parts of the bible are interpreted differently, emphasized or not emphasized, or ignored completely.

I don't think you will find any mainstream religion that accepts gay marriage as a whole since religion stays on the side of conservatism, so it will always be behinds the times.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OnlineSirTripAlot
Semper Fidelis
Male User Gallery

Registered: 01/11/05
Posts: 7,459
Loc: Harmless (Mostly)
Last seen: 5 minutes, 50 seconds
Re: Religious Freedom? - Could someone explain this one to me? [Re: Phluck]
    #5340918 - 02/26/06 12:40 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Phluck stated:
This would mean that every single small christian church with a unique belief is not Christian, because they have some unique beliefs that the vast majority of Christians (more than those that are opposed to gay marriage) don't agree with.


I couldnt have said it better myself. There are many churches claiming to be Christian (Like those excepting gay marriage) which are not. This "unique belief" is allot more then that..similar to your trinity....this is one of the most fundamentials of beliefs: marriage.


Any church that endorses gay marriage clearly does not follow the Bible.


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineRedstorm
Prince of Bugs
Male

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 10/08/02
Posts: 44,175
Last seen: 3 months, 11 days
Re: Religious Freedom? - Could someone explain this one to me? [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #5340925 - 02/26/06 12:42 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

The only thing necessary to be a Christian is the belief that Jesus is the son of God.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Jump to top Pages: < Back | 1 | 2 | 3 | Next >  [ show all ]

Shop: Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   PhytoExtractum Maeng Da Thai Kratom Leaf Powder


Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* The Bush Administration's Hypocrisy on Religious Freedoms
( 1 2 all )
Twirling 3,571 27 03/03/05 06:28 PM
by Psychoactive1984
* Testing religious freedom in America silversoul7 1,514 13 11/21/03 09:54 PM
by shroomophile
* "They hate our freedom" isn't entirely wrong. Phluck 1,276 8 07/17/05 10:44 PM
by phreedom420
* George W Bush: Religious maniac
( 1 2 all )
Dogomush 1,848 35 11/12/03 08:57 PM
by Evolving
* ACLU Seeks Mandatory Homosexual Sensitivity Training
( 1 2 3 4 5 6 all )
lonestar2004 7,871 100 07/23/05 11:05 PM
by JesusChrist
* Dems political strategy is to demonize Christians
( 1 2 all )
Ellis Dee 5,030 35 02/16/23 11:43 AM
by tyrannicalrex
* Genetic Factors Influence Male Homosexuality-Study Worf 821 8 10/12/04 11:02 PM
by unbeliever
* Voting: Which freedom do you want to lose? DoctorJ 567 2 03/04/04 02:43 PM
by

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Enlil, ballsalsa
4,546 topic views. 1 members, 8 guests and 4 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Show Images Only | Sort by Score | Print Topic ]
Search this thread:

Copyright 1997-2024 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.029 seconds spending 0.008 seconds on 15 queries.