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OfflinePhluck
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Religious Freedom? - Could someone explain this one to me?
    #5339415 - 02/25/06 09:53 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

I've heard this argument a bunch of times: Allowing gay marriage that is equal to straight marriage is an infringement on the religious freedoms of Christians, and other religions opposed to homosexuality.

But they religious people aren't forced to do anything, and they aren't prevented from doing anything. I've never heard any gay marriage proponent say that all churches should be forced to perform gay marriage. As far as I know, only the ones that already approve would be involved.

So? Where's the infringement?


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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InvisibleJonnyOnTheSpot
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Re: Religious Freedom? - Could someone explain this one to me? [Re: Phluck]
    #5339455 - 02/25/06 10:06 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

i think the stupidest thing about that argument is that it makes marriage sound like some sort of trade marked christian practice, but marriage has been all over the world regardless of religious boundaries for thousands of years. So for christians to try to dictate what marriage is, based on their particular version of it is just silly, and they don't really have any right to do so for everyone else just because they are in the majority.

and BTW i'd never heard that particular argument before..it's usually about the possibility of tax fraud (which exists in straight marriage too) and the definition of marriage.

It's all just moral posturing and an attempt to deny people their basic 1st amendment rights by hardcore christians who are simply afraid gay marriage will cause homosexuality to become more accepted, which will in turn have widespread moral repercussions throughout america that will affect their children negatively.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Religious Freedom? - Could someone explain this one to me? [Re: Phluck]
    #5339507 - 02/25/06 10:22 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Phluck said:
But they religious people aren't forced to do anything, and they aren't prevented from doing anything. I've never heard any gay marriage proponent say that all churches should be forced to perform gay marriage. As far as I know, only the ones that already approve would be involved.



And that's precisely where the misunderstanding comes from. They think that if the government allows gay marriage, that suddenly any church that won't perform or recognize gay marriage will be sued or something. I'd call it deliberate ignorance.


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Offlinebeatnicknick
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Re: Religious Freedom? - Could someone explain this one to me? [Re: Phluck]
    #5339774 - 02/25/06 11:22 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

If I were part of the gay people I'd create our own religion and part of that is that we're allowed to get married. What does the government do when they have two opposing religions on a matter, and both want religious freedom?

How can you keep a nonchristian homo from marrying based on Christian rules? Isn't that considered the opposite of freedom of religion?


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I don't think for myself. I think as though I'm explaining my thoughts to someone else. I'm concerned only for those listening.


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OfflineThe_Red_Crayon
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Re: Religious Freedom? - Could someone explain this one to me? [Re: Phluck]
    #5339788 - 02/25/06 11:29 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Anyone who talks about the sanctity of marriage should realize that in las vegas you can get married in 10 minutes.


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: Religious Freedom? - Could someone explain this one to me? [Re: Phluck]
    #5339899 - 02/26/06 12:48 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Let's cut right to the meat of the issue; Christians don't like homos. Because of that they don't want the homos to be able to engage in certain things which might "pollute" the accepted norms. All of these excuses they come up with are garbage (the sanctity of marriage with be perverted, gays want special rights, etc...). The Christians have a view of how society should be and they seek to impose their will upon others in order to achieve it. They are just as bad as the extreme "progressive Leftists".


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Offlinebeatnicknick
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Re: Religious Freedom? - Could someone explain this one to me? [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #5339936 - 02/26/06 01:04 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Except that the left is right and that the Christians are fucking psycho. Look at there leaders http://www.reandev.com/taliban/ !!!!

These people are absolutley nuts! They masturbate when they hear another gay died of AIDS. They love AIDS. They want a gay genocide it would seem.


--------------------
I don't think for myself. I think as though I'm explaining my thoughts to someone else. I'm concerned only for those listening.


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: Religious Freedom? - Could someone explain this one to me? [Re: beatnicknick]
    #5339942 - 02/26/06 01:07 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

beatnicknick said:
Except that the left is right and that the Christians are fucking psycho. Look at there leaders http://www.reandev.com/taliban/ !!!!

These people are absolutley nuts! They masturbate when they hear another gay died of AIDS. They love AIDS. They want a gay genocide it would seem.




The Left in America ranges from extreme Lefties to mild ones. The Right is the same. The fringe Righties are much less numerous than the fringe Lefties in my opinion.


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Religious Freedom? - Could someone explain this one to me? [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #5340185 - 02/26/06 05:46 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)


The Left in America ranges from extreme Lefties to mild ones. The Right is the same. The fringe Righties are much less numerous than the fringe Lefties in my opinion.


I think the fact that you lean a bit to the right sways your opinion a lot.

I don't think there are more fringe lefties, I just think they dress sillier and stand out more.

But you won't have much trouble finding a normally dressed guy that thinks he gets to live in everlasting paradise for eternity 'cause a skinny guy got nailed to some shit 2000 years ago... and believes the government needs to stay out of his life and homosexuals are broken people.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: Religious Freedom? - Could someone explain this one to me? [Re: Phluck]
    #5340269 - 02/26/06 07:36 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Phluck said:
Quote:

Randalflagg said:

The Left in America ranges from extreme Lefties to mild ones. The Right is the same. The fringe Righties are much less numerous than the fringe Lefties in my opinion.





I think the fact that you lean a bit to the right sways your opinion a lot.




Nigga, you crazy.

Quote:

Phluck said:
I don't think there are more fringe lefties, I just think they dress sillier and stand out more.

But you won't have much trouble finding a normally dressed guy that thinks he gets to live in everlasting paradise for eternity 'cause a skinny guy got nailed to some shit 2000 years ago... and believes the government needs to stay out of his life and homosexuals are broken people.




I struggle to understand the underlying beliefs that guide ideology. I also try to recognize where one ideology seems to reign supreme and others don't. I try to discern which one has the "upper hand" or which one has more adherents.

...After reconsidering my statement I think I may be wrong. While Leftism undoubtedly reigns in much of our entertainment, urban areas, minority populations, and higher institutions of learning, Rightist tenets seem to hold sway over many other demographs. Small towns, religious people, and "old-fashioned" people seem to definately lean Right more. The one thing that is really noticeable about the whole "culture war" is how polarized both sides are.

I will readily admit that I am naturally reactionary and hostile which makes me a tad bit close-minded. I just cannot seem to get over my loathing of most Leftist tenets and posturing. I think the thing that bugs me the most is when I see examples of Lefties expressing concern for the "common man" but at the same time condescendingly chiding the common man's thinking and culture (or lack thereof). It is just incredibly elistist and pretentious. When I look through my local alt-weekly "city newspaper" and see pictures of guys that are looking half indie rock/half preppy (like one of the dudes from Weezer), showing off their Volkswagens, drinking copious cappucinos, bitching about grad school, and lamenting about the lack of culture in their area ("I'm the only one on my block who has read Sartre. How backwards people are around here!"), I just want to kidnap and torture them slowly. These are the people we are supposed to emulate? These are the people who will occupy important positions within our society? This is what the modern male should be like? These are the modern sensibilities and ideas that we should project? I can't help but feel that these over-educated, whiny, pampered, and effeminate dorks should be put to sleep. At least the religious Righties have an excuse for how fucking stupid they are...they are brainwashed by a religion that demands absolute and unquestioning faith.

However, let me add that I am no fan of the Right. Religious nutcases, xenophobes, and excessive nationalists cause nothing but problems. While I deplore their methods and their more extreme incarnations, I can at least understand where they are coming from. The desire for stability, tradition, order, and concern for your people seem like natural drives to me. I think my concern with "where you came from and who you are"-type ideals stems from the death of my father some years ago. I know where I came from, the people who raised me, and the ideas that were instilled in me. I cherish these things. And when I see extreme Lefties seeming to revel in the rejection of tradition for the sake of pointless rebellion or the pursuit of a materialist vision the bile in my stomach rises up.


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OfflineSirTripAlot
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Re: Religious Freedom? - Could someone explain this one to me? [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #5340338 - 02/26/06 08:37 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Show me a major recognized religion, that will marry a homosexual couple.

Lets start by elimintaing some: Christians don't.
How aout Islam? Nope.....

Can anyone show me one?


(by the way why people always single out Christians when it comes to being homophobic?)


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”


Edited by SirTripAlot (02/26/06 08:39 AM)


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Religious Freedom? - Could someone explain this one to me? [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #5340347 - 02/26/06 08:49 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)


However, let me add that I am no fan of the Right. Religious nutcases, xenophobes, and excessive nationalists cause nothing but problems. While I deplore their methods and their more extreme incarnations, I can at least understand where they are coming from. The desire for stability, tradition, order, and concern for your people seem like natural drives to me. I think my concern with "where you came from and who you are"-type ideals stems from the death of my father some years ago. I know where I came from, the people who raised me, and the ideas that were instilled in me. I cherish these things. And when I see extreme Lefties seeming to revel in the rejection of tradition for the sake of pointless rebellion or the pursuit of a materialist vision the bile in my stomach rises up.


I don't think there's anything less natural about wanting to help people out, yet also wanting to be intelligent and well read. This obviously results in a certain amount of hypocrisy, but no less so than the many hypocrisies of the right.

Some people honestly find change thrilling. I enjoy finding out that deeply ingrained feelings and beliefs are just imposed values, and not something that I have to believe in. America is founded on rebellion, the protestants who founded the country are people who felt the need to attack the old values of the Catholic church. The desire to want to change things and rebell is one of the old values in the US.

I love history, and I love learning about the past, but I don't want to live it. When someone wants to do something really crazy like get a sex change, I don't find that offensive at all. There have always been people who have had a messed up perception of their own sex, and in the past they were forced to live in shame or persecution. Now they're free to explore new, weird ways to feel comfortable with themselves. That doesn't offend me, and neither do lots of the bizarre things liberals are cool with. I think it's fascinating and thrilling that someone would want to live their lives in such a bizarre manner.

Many people have had their desires respressed or persecuted by "traditional values". I was recently reading Psychopathia Sexualis, which was written over 100 years ago, and is a collection of case histories about "sexual deviants". It would seem there were just as many people back then with screwed up sexuality, it's just that they were all treated as insane, monsters, or just plain useless. Nowadays, many of them can live happy, productive lives, because people have rebelled against "traditional values".

I don't see any evidence that these traditional types have lives that are any more stable or structured than those on the left. The values that were instilled in me include being open to new ideas and accepting strange people. I like exploring other cultures and stretching the limits of our own because it makes life a lot more interesting. I don't think that clinging to old values just for the sake of tradition is going to make anything better. If someone wants to live their lives in an old fashioned manner, that's just fine. But if someone also wants to live their lives in a weird new way, that's just as fine, there's nothing less nice about that.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


Edited by Phluck (02/26/06 08:56 AM)


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Religious Freedom? - Could someone explain this one to me? [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #5340350 - 02/26/06 08:52 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:


Show me a major recognized religion, that will marry a homosexual couple.

Lets start by elimintaing some: Christians don't.
How aout Islam? Nope.....

Can anyone show me one?


(by the way why people always single out Christians when it comes to being homophobic?)




What about: Some Christians?

Most "major religions" are so huge and nebulous that there's no single set of values that can be assigned to them.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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OfflineSirTripAlot
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Re: Religious Freedom? - Could someone explain this one to me? [Re: Phluck]
    #5340360 - 02/26/06 09:01 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Bullshit. All major religions have regulations and standards when it comes to marriage.


Christan doctrine does not allow it. The Christian churches that do, face expulsion.
Same with, or even worse in the faith of Islam.


So once again, so me a major religion that marries homosexuals.


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”


Edited by SirTripAlot (02/26/06 09:02 AM)


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Religious Freedom? - Could someone explain this one to me? [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #5340376 - 02/26/06 09:16 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

SirTripAlot said:
Show me a major recognized religion, that will marry a homosexual couple.

Lets start by elimintaing some: Christians don't.



Wrong. Some Christians don't. There are plenty of gay churches around the country, believe it or not. Just because your particular brand of Christianity doesn't recognize same-sex marriage doesn't mean that all of them think that way. There is lots of diversity within Christianity. Also, how do you suppose atheists manage to get married in this country?


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OfflineSirTripAlot
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Re: Religious Freedom? - Could someone explain this one to me? [Re: Silversoul]
    #5340420 - 02/26/06 09:35 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Paradigm, if you want to battle with me over Christian doctrine: put on the gloves.

I dont know if you remember our previous discussions on this topic.

The VAST MAJORITY of Christians do not believe in gay marriage.

The select MINORITY that do, ARE in violation of that faith.

You choose any ten churches in the phone book, call them and ask them about gay marriage, do a statistical analysis. If you ewant an in more depth experiment, Im sure you could devise one, but the stats would remain the same.

By the fucking way, anyone uncovered a major religon that marries gays???? I am still waiting,you, globalists.

(Atheists get married at a courthouse.)


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Religious Freedom? - Could someone explain this one to me? [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #5340430 - 02/26/06 09:37 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)


Christan doctrine does not allow it. The Christian churches that do, face expulsion.


Expulsion from what?

Maybe you've confused Christianity with Catholicism.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Religious Freedom? - Could someone explain this one to me? [Re: Silversoul]
    #5340433 - 02/26/06 09:38 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

I got married by the mayor. My friends got married by Giuliani. The actual marriage, for legal purposes, is not the ceremony but the granting of the license. Church weddings in the absence of a government granted license are legally null and void.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Religious Freedom? - Could someone explain this one to me? [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #5340454 - 02/26/06 09:48 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

There is no one Christianity. Case in point: You and I are both Christians, yet look how different we are. Even if the majority of Christians don't support gay marriage, it only takes a few denominations for gays to be able to get married in the church. Your demand for a "major religion" that allows gay marriage is a red herring, as every major religion has a great diversity of sects and denominations, with their own unique beliefs.


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OfflineSirTripAlot
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Re: Religious Freedom? - Could someone explain this one to me? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #5340455 - 02/26/06 09:49 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Expulsion from that type of Christianinty(the community)....take for instance being a Southern Baptist church that allows gay marriage......

Still waiting on other MAJOR religions that accept gay MARRIAGE........


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”


Edited by SirTripAlot (02/26/06 09:54 AM)


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