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Re: Final Question(s) for Homeopathy Aficianados [Re: Diploid]
    #5130050 -

I understand that and we are on the same page there. What I want to know is, are there homeopathic doctors out there selling it under the claim that it is a scientifically proved effective treatment?

If they are not via advertising, then they are not breaking any laws.

If they are then, they are giving out fraudulent information. to my knowledge any shmo getting into alternative medicine should knows the laws about what claims you can make and if they don't they will get slapped and thats fine by me.

providing they are staying in the laws, who pays for something they don't believe on their own will deliver? If that belief alone does the trick, then I'm okay with that. Modern medicine doesn't always deliver either and people still pay for its services and products looking for relief. My sister who had no insurance at the time dropped a mother load and didn't get any until she went to an acupuncturist.

We take our chances with modern medicine too. They don't give refunds.

Why can't we all get smarter about doing our research and learning about all of the potential options available and decide for ourselves?

If people suffering from something have ONLY received results through homeopathy, after trying other options, who am I to take that option away from them and why would I?

The placebo part is interesting regarding the Randi test on it.  I was intrigued that it did test to show results with spikes on the graph where as the non treated water didn't, with such consistent results that it got published in the top scientific journal.

It bombed when Randi took the knowledge away from the testing scientist of which was which and covered that information with tin foil.

I had to laugh my ass off thinking about the tin foil hats some schizos where so the aliens can't penetrate their mind.

Was Randi working with the same principle ( if there is one) because  there may be something happening at the quantum level related to the consciousness of the one in control of the tincture and their belief in it?

I'd like to know why, they all dropped it and why no one was curious why it worked when the tester knew what bottle had which water in it. As a scientists, would that not be a curiosity to you that you would want to explain to at least yourself? That may have been proof itself of some sort of ESP phenomenon and everyone blew it off.

It worked when he knew and didn't when he didn't know and the info was covered in tin foil. How do you walk away from not wanting that explained?

I'm not ready to make conclusions here yet because science hasn't gotten that far into quantum consciousness mechanics.

I had to laugh at reading Randi pulling out the tin foil hat to cover the codes. A neighbors mother in law is schizo and wears one and swears it works to keep the aliens from bugging her. :rofl2: Sorry if that offends anyone who wears one. Like I said, if it works it works. :lol:

I love you all!

:peace: :heart:

P. S. I may have saved that web-site. Maybe one of you have the site saved on Randi's homeopathy challenge. The foil bit is a hoot. :thumbup:

edit typo


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.

Edited by gettinjiggywithit (01/02/06 12:50 AM)

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Re: Final Question(s) for Homeopathy Aficianados [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #5130057 -

I think the main motivation for both opposing groups is money.

Somehow my monthly kickback failed to come in the mail this month. Did you get yours, Dip?


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: Final Question(s) for Homeopathy Aficianados [Re: Swami]
    #5130071 -

i meant the FDA vs the homeopathic distributors.

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Re: Final Question(s) for Homeopathy Aficianados [Re: Swami]
    #5130075 -

I didn't get mine either. :shrug:

My motivating factor for speaking up here is about an appreciation for freedom and lots of options and being informed and in support of whatever it takes, starting with the safest product first, for people in pain or suffering to get the relief they seek. I just want people to not suffer if they don't have too.  If it works it works.

:peace: :heart:

edit- greamlin typo


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.

Edited by gettinjiggywithit (01/02/06 12:55 AM)

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Re: Final Question(s) for Homeopathy Aficianados [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #5130089 -

Homeopathy appears to work based on the patient/therapy human- connection and not on the elixir itself. This is the psychology of feeling better after telling your problems to another alleged concerned person.


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: Final Question(s) for Homeopathy Aficianados [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #5130119 -

You keep commingling 'working' with 'appearing to work'. They are not the same. The diseases that homepathy appears to work on are ones where pains come and go regularly (or vary greatly) without treatment, such as arthritis and allergies and headaches.

We have talked before about the Xtenz (sp?) product for male penile enlargement. Over half a billion capsules have been sold for a product with zero efficacy as length is genetically pretedetermined (discounting harmful tissue stretching devices). Despite this medical FACT, you claim in this thread that people are not stupid enough to buy products which do not work. This clearly throws that assertion out the window.


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: Final Question(s) for Homeopathy Aficianados [Re: Swami]
    #5130137 -

once again, it is another mental ploy being sold. Here david Blain, here is 30 dollars, trick me.
If the end result of Xtenz is for a guy to have more confidence in the bedroom, and he is under the persuasion that his pencil dick is now Moby Dick, he will probably fuck with much more confidence.

edit: therefor, Xtenz worked.

Edited by psilocyberin (01/02/06 01:13 AM)

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Re: Final Question(s) for Homeopathy Aficianados [Re: Swami]
    #5130140 -

Even if it is as simple as that sounds, something is happening to relieve some form of physical suffering. That alone should give cause to do more research into the mind body connection and how thought, belief or feeling can heal under certain directives.

If research and development in that area can save people from being dependent of prescription drugs or give relief where scripts don't even work or when doctors can't even find a physical cause for someones pain, then why isn't science going there?

There's no money in it, because you can't patent the findings is my opinion.

Like psilo said, legal or not, people suffering will break laws or go out of the country if they can afford to to get relief when all else fails.

Does anyone here honestly believe that our government or the FDA cares about human suffering in all of its forms? Until they do, we can't put full stock or faith in them to heal human suffering. We have to take care of ourselves and each other best we know how outside of they they can and do, do for us.

:peace: :heart:


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.

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Re: Final Question(s) for Homeopathy Aficianados [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #5130179 -

I'd like to know why, they all dropped it and why no one was curious why it worked when the tester knew what bottle had which water in it. As a scientists, would that not be a curiosity to you that you would want to explain to at least yourself?

That's the whole point of double-blinding.

If the scientist knows what the expected result should be, his human psychology can't help but to find it. This is a well known problem in scientific inquiry and it's why a researcher can never know if he's administering the test substance or the placebo. This way, his interpretation of the results can't be colored by his expectations.

The drugs are prepared by a third party and placed in bottles with numbers only and no indication of whether they contain water or homeopathic remedies. The contents data are sealed and only revealed at the end of the study. In this way, only the effects of the drugs come through and the opinion of the researcher is completely screened out.

It has been shown over and over again that even the most well-meaning humans are unable to divorce themselves from this effect. It's called the Clever Hans effect.

I dunno if you read my description of this effect in another recent thread, but I'll repeat it here for clarity:

A dramatic example of this is the story of Clever Hans, a horse who could count. Hans' owner found that when the horse was shown a collection of objects, he would stomp his hoof once for each object. Show the horse eight objects, and he would stomp eight times. This effect was accurate and repeatable over and over to the astonishment of the public and Hans' owner also who didn't understand how this could be. He was subconsciously queuing the horse and he didn't even realize it!

After a commission of scientists was asked to study the matter, the first thing they did was to put Hans' owner behind a screen during the test such that Hans could not see him. Whenever Hans' owner was not visible, the horse could not count. Once this was discovered, careful observation found that Hans' owner became unconsciously and almost imperceptibly tense during the count, then relaxed on the last hoof beat. This unconscious clue was enough for Hans to tune into and explained the effect.

Read more here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clever_Hans

The Clever Hans effect is also why people believe in telepathy; because it works through unconscious clues; when telepathy is tested in a way that prevents the Clever Hans effect, it never works.

When homeopathy is tested the same way, it never works either.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

Edited by Diploid (01/02/06 01:56 AM)

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Re: Final Question(s) for Homeopathy Aficianados [Re: Swami]
    #5130190 -

Swami said:
You keep commingling 'working' with 'appearing to work'. They are not the same. The diseases that homeopathy appears to work on are ones where pains come and go regularly (or vary greatly) without treatment, such as arthritis and allergies and headaches.

We have talked before about the Xtenz (sp?) product for male penile enlargement. Over half a billion capsules have been sold for a product with zero efficacy as length is genetically predetermined (discounting harmful tissue stretching devices). Despite this medical FACT, you claim in this thread that people are not stupid enough to buy products which do not work. This clearly throws that assertion out the window.


Appears to work and work are the same thing to me if the person is experiencing working results.

I don;t think in the tests for the Randi challenge and the ones that lead to the published researched in the science journal even used people to get the result they did. I thought I read, they were using a substance reaction test and don't recall anything about human test subjects being used in the ones tat showed a reaction to the tincture and the ones that later didn't. I'll have to find that site again now.

Where did I claim people are smart enough to do the research before they buy products and services. To the contrary I think the majority don't. I said, people don't buy something unless they believe it will deliver. Sometimes that belief is based on studies , referrals or even wishful thinking like with the penis enlargement pills.

Maybe if people believed they got results  it could have been a product of the power of belief or self delusion. If they feel they got results and are a satisfied customer, even if a self deluded one- so what? If it works it works.

The thing is, when people start believing something is going to create change for them, it is often through that belief, they start making changes that are actually responsible for the results and its not the product at all.

Like a woman who believes Jenny Craig is going to help her loose weight. She may be making other modifications to her life style that are bringing more results that Jenny's meals actually are. jenny will get the credit if thats where the woman put her power of faith and confidence into.

Some people just can't believe in themselves to the equivalent they believe in others they think know more. Power gets turned over to mis perceived higher authorities everyday and credit is given when often, the person did the work themselves all along. They sought the knowledge or service of another and took action. Thats the real key to positive change-believing it can happen and then taking action to make it happen. 

:peace: :heart:


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.

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Re: Final Question(s) for Homeopathy Aficianados [Re: Diploid]
    #5130199 -

What would happen if Clever Hans took Xtenz and his owner believed in the product?

Sorry, folks - it is getting late...


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: Final Question(s) for Homeopathy Aficianados [Re: Diploid]
    #5130209 -

ok, but does homeopathy not have a valid effect, even if it is just a hightened result of placebo?

what, if any, studies have been done regarding the reverse of the placebo effect?

lets say that you have a group of people with the same problem. They all get the same miracle pill X17, and a placebo group gets placebo, disguised as X17, but prior to the study, they had all been told, by a reputable source, that X17 is merely aspirin, and is impossible for it to cure your bleeding rectum.
How bad do you think the study would be affected?

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Re: Final Question(s) for Homeopathy Aficianados [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #5130212 -

Like a woman who believes Jenny Craig is going to help her loose[sic] weight.

I get a kick out of all the diet powders and pills in the fitness magazines. Read the copy:

Product X, when combined with a sensible diet and regular cardio exercise will help to reduce weight.

A tablesoon of dirt taken daily along with a sensible diet and regular cardio exercise will help to reduce weight.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: Final Question(s) for Homeopathy Aficianados [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #5130220 -

ok, but does homeopathy not have a valid effect, even if it is just a hightened result of placebo?

Homeopathy IS placebo.

If the test group and the placebo control group both respond with improvement (this is what the studies show), then they are both equivalent.

Given that knowledge, why are homeopathic therapists selling patients expensive water bottles? This is dishonest and the charlatans pushing homeopathy know it.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Re: Final Question(s) for Homeopathy Aficianados [Re: Swami]
    #5130222 -

A tablesoon of dirt taken daily along with a sensible diet and regular cardio exercise will help to reduce weight. :rofl2:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Re: Final Question(s) for Homeopathy Aficianados [Re: Swami]
    #5130226 -

you know, placebo is sold.

If placebo can be sold as "Noralflex" or some other pill sounding name, then why cant placebo be sold as "homeopathic remedy"?

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Re: Final Question(s) for Homeopathy Aficianados [Re: Diploid]
    #5130229 -

That was interesting and I understand how the horse's ability to count was explained.

In the tests that got published, a number of researchers were seeing the reaction spikes on the graph. Even Randi did in the firt round of the challenge. He called for the double blind and tin foil after that. How were human observers who knew, effecting the reaction spikes of a machine? That's what I want to know. They wern't using human test subjects if I recal right, they were using detection machines. That would imply, consiousness or physical cues were having an effect on physical matter. I have to dig that randi page up to confirm what I thought I read.

Lets say, the homeopathic doctor is giving reassuring cues that everything will be fixxed up that the patient is subconsciously responding to and they are the ones doing self healing as a result of the hans effect? Shouldn't science be doing research into how the power of subconscious suggestion related to self healing can bring results?

Doesn't that intrigue you? What about spontaneous remissions? How does self healing happen and can it be taught?

:peace: :heart:


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.

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Re: Final Question(s) for Homeopathy Aficianados [Re: Swami]
    #5130235 -

Swami said:
Like a woman who believes Jenny Craig is going to help her loose[sic] weight.

I get a kick out of all the diet powders and pills in the fitness magazines. Read the copy:

Product X, when combined with a sensible diet and regular cardio exercise will help to reduce weight.

A tablesoon of dirt taken daily along with a sensible diet and regular cardio exercise will help to reduce weight.


id rather take that pill than aspartame, saccharrin, or sucralose (aka splenda). I doubt pill X will give me cancer or anal leakage.

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Re: Final Question(s) for Homeopathy Aficianados [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #5130243 -

How were human observers who knew, effecting the reaction spikes of a machine?

I'm not familiar with that study. Link us when you find it. I'd like to read it for myself.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Final Question(s) for Homeopathy Aficianados [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #5130279 -

Lets say, the homeopathic doctor is giving reassuring cues that everything will be fixxed up that the patient is subconsciously responding to and they are the ones doing self healing as a result of the hans effect? Shouldn't science be doing research into how the power of subconscious suggestion related to self healing can bring results?

Absolutely. And science IS looking into this. People's outlook and state of mind can influence the course of their decease. Stress is known to have physiological effects. To deny this is to deny the truth.

But there's a difference between a doctor reassuring someone and putting them at ease vs lying to them by giving them a $100 bottle of water and saying 'this will cure you'.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
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